Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
you have got to thing Mercedes could have a good car again.

Or you could think that last years car was a one-off aberration. Every single other car that team has produced in it's history as BAR then Honda was a dog. This years car is not as bad as the BAR ones but could easily be viewed as a stepping stone back to where the team came from.
 
Or you could think that last years car was a one-off aberration. Every single other car that team has produced in it's history as BAR then Honda was a dog. This years car is not as bad as the BAR ones but could easily be viewed as a stepping stone back to where the team came from.

Haven't Mercedes drastically reduced their workforce? I know Brawn went into major cost-cutting early last season, and I'm sure Mercedes have a smaller budget than McLaren/ Ferrari/ Red Bull.
 
Haven't Mercedes drastically reduced their workforce? I know Brawn went into major cost-cutting early last season, and I'm sure Mercedes have a smaller budget than McLaren/ Ferrari/ Red Bull.

Not sure. Brawn had to drastically cut the workforce from the Honda-sized team the inherited. In some ways this might have helped them: too many people with input is not necessarily a good thing. I don't know if the have a smaller or bigger budget as Mercedes...
 
Haven't Mercedes drastically reduced their workforce? I know Brawn went into major cost-cutting early last season, and I'm sure Mercedes have a smaller budget than McLaren/ Ferrari/ Red Bull.

I think you overestimate Red Bull's budget, it really isn't as big as the other front-runners. Every team slashed their costs last year, mainly through cutting their workforce.
 
My issue (and I agree with your point) is that I view Webber as also having to fight his team some of this year,

I'm not sure if the events of Silverstone really qualify as fighting his team to be honest, and not just more a disagreement over how the team operates in very specific circumstances.

But acting like a child doesn't really help his case does it?

Or you could think that last years car was a one-off aberration. Every single other car that team has produced in it's history as BAR then Honda was a dog. This years car is not as bad as the BAR ones but could easily be viewed as a stepping stone back to where the team came from.

To be fair, the 2004 car was pretty good, hampered by its drivers perhaps, but still a very good car. Though of course, one does wonder whether they were actually running deliberately 6kg lighter than the other teams for much of that season (like they were during the initial races of 2005) of course.

I think you overestimate Red Bull's budget, it really isn't as big as the other front-runners. Every team slashed their costs last year, mainly through cutting their workforce.

But it's probably not unreasonable to suggest that they're at least the 4th largest budget in F1 (and perhaps comparable if not the outright largest if you actually include Red Bulls total expenditure in Red Bull Technology & Red Bull Racing).

lotus revamping for next season? redbull gear box, renault powerplant? jarno may be out... nick heidfeld in?

And the High Court willing, they'll also be the proper Lotus team as well. :p
 
There is a huge difference in the budgets between McLaren and Ferrari down to the next teams. To say that Red Bull are in the top four spenders makes it seem like they're close to what those two spend, which isn't really true.
 
Or you could think that last years car was a one-off aberration. Every single other car that team has produced in it's history as BAR then Honda was a dog. This years car is not as bad as the BAR ones but could easily be viewed as a stepping stone back to where the team came from.

also, aside from the wonderful cinderella narrative, one can't forget that brawn was massively helped by the diffuser advantage.
without that head start, or if the ruling had gone the other way, it's very likely that we'd have a very different story last year and a very different grid this year.
 
Certainly over £100 milion per year. While it is difficult to calculate the other budgets (Ferrari are certainly very secretive), they must be in the top four.

If those numbers are anywhere near accurate, then Red Bull Technology's turnover was £160.8 million or roughly $252 million. That's an impressive figure.

I know I've read figures that suggest Red Bull's budget is perhaps only $20 million less than McLaren's, which wouldn't really be all that surprising when you consider that Newey is alleged to be on a $10 million salary retainer alone.

It's difficult to gauge Ferrari's budget, and perhaps also grossly unfair to directly compare them with teams like McLaren and Red Bull, because they incur the costs of design, development and build of their own engines, even then, figures over more recent years have suggested that previously Toyota, Honda and McLaren often/sometimes/occasionally have had larger budgets.

There is a huge difference in the budgets between McLaren and Ferrari down to the next teams. To say that Red Bull are in the top four spenders makes it seem like they're close to what those two spend, which isn't really true.

Above Red Bull/F1 Article said:
In essence parent company Red Bull GmbH pays the team whatever it needs

And we should remember that, Red Bull are not minions here, they have financial resources directly available far, far in excess to what Ferrari have available to them and quite possibly McLaren too.

So I would argue that Red Bull's budget is probably closer to that of Ferrari & McLaren than to that of HRT for example.
 
As that report states, the cost of success was huge. There were 600 staff members to pay bonuses to in 2009, which comes out to about £5.5m, and that's before you include even more considerable bonuses for the drivers and team bosses.

Mclaren's budget in 2008 was estimated at $430m (£244m in 2008), with Ferrari not far behind at $415m (£235m). Red Bull's was estimated to be $164m (£93m). Even if they rose to £160m in 2009, then I can't see them getting within £20m, or even £100m of McLaren or Ferrari. Both of those teams had to put huge amounts of resources into developing their 2009 cars for a massive rule change, and then redeveloping them when they turned out to be dogs. The amount it would have cost to do that would have negated any attempt they made at budget cuts. The same has happened in 2010, while Red Bull have been able to simply evolve a known-good design the other teams have had to push harder to keep up.

Red Bull's style is to work smart, spending money on developing only what it feels is necessary. The team also has an amazing workforce who are willing to put in considerable hours over their paid time to see the car come together to win.

I'm trying to say only what can already be found online. Any more and I wouldn't be comfortable, but take anything you read online about F1 with a tonne of salt. There is a lot of misinformation about (see: any theory in recent years about the performance enhancing devices of any car)
 
Mclaren's budget in 2008 was estimated at $430m (£244m in 2008), with Ferrari not far behind at $415m (£235m). Red Bull's was estimated to be $164m (£93m). Even if they rose to £160m in 2009, then I can't see them getting within £20m, or even £100m of McLaren or Ferrari.

But budgets from 2 years ago do not represent the teams budgets as they are now, and I suspect the reason you've quoted them is to give the impression of the gap being far larger than it actually is today, which is of course the topic at hand.

Ferrari's F1 budget for 2009 is rumoured to have fallen to $370 million for example, and according to some has been rumoured to be around €240 million this season whilst McLaren's budget has thought to have reduced dramatically since Mercedes reduced it's interest last season, to somewhere in the region of €220 million. Red Bull Racing's (presumably excluding Red Bull Technology) budget for this season is thought to be in the region of €150 million, whilst they might not be entirely accurate figures, I suspect they're probably not widely inaccurate either, or at least the difference/ratio anyway.

Both of those teams had to put huge amounts of resources into developing their 2009 cars for a massive rule change, and then redeveloping them when they turned out to be dogs. The amount it would have cost to do that would have negated any attempt they made at budget cuts. The same has happened in 2010, while Red Bull have been able to simply evolve a known-good design the other teams have had to push harder to keep up.

The amount it would have cost to do that would have negated any attempt they made at budget cuts.

Isn't this merely conjecture? presumably the development of the 2010 cars came from the 2010 budget, not in addition to, whilst in season development of the 2009 cars would've been covered by the 2009 budgets. An increase in applied resources does not automatically equate to additional costs.

Red Bull's style is to work smart, spending money on developing only what it feels is necessary.

This doesn't appear to be born out by the dramatic increase in spending of Red Bull over the last few seasons, if we're to believe that Red Bull are simply evolving a known-good design.

The team also has an amazing workforce who are willing to put in considerable hours over their paid time to see the car come together to win.

I am sure this is no different to the other teams.

But I can't help but think that it's folly to try and attempt to suggest that Red Bull are some kind of minion team, rather than what they actually are, which is the very well funded racing arm of a massive global conglomerate, with extraordinary financial resources available should they need them.

And I don't see the point in trying to downplay it either. *shrugs*
 
Nevermind. I have satisfied myself, but I should have known it would be pointless to try the same on you.

Settled down to watch quali, only to (thankfully) be told that it was postponed until tomorrow before I spent too long wasting my time.
 
Nevermind. I have satisfied myself, but I should have known it would be pointless to try the same on you.

Settled down to watch quali, only to (thankfully) be told that it was postponed until tomorrow before I spent too long wasting my time.

It's not pointless at all, I have no problem with being wrong nor having it pointed out to me when I am, but what you've said previously made little sense to me, hence the querying of your comments, this is supposed to be a discussion board after all. *shrugs*

Anyway… I didn't get up to watch qualifying, I'd forgotten that whilst the start of the Japanese GP had been changed some years back to accommodate European viewing schedules, that qualifying remained at the earlier time. *whoopsie*. :eek:

But speaking of Red Bull, I am finding the ongoing saga (and subsequent discussions) of their front wing fascinating. There's obviously some incredibly clever engineering going on not just with the front wing, but with the entire car. Judging by the photos, I'm not convinced it's entirely legal, (yes I know it's passing scrutineering, but so did BAR in 2005, or Ferrari in '07 until the FIA got wind as to what was actually going on) :p but regardless of technicalities, what's more amusing is that the other teams appear to be completely befuddled by what they're actually doing… :p :p :p
 
Now then now then. I think we can all agree that while Red Bull do not have a budget in the realms of Mclaren/ Ferrari/ (Toyota :eek:), they still have a nicely comfortable budget, and perhaps still are within the top 4 regarding budgets.

BTW anyone staying up for an F1 marathon tomorrow?! Wo betide anyone who puts it in the wall.:eek:
 
Now then now then. I think we can all agree that while Red Bull do not have a budget in the realms of Mclaren/ Ferrari/ (Toyota :eek:), they still have a nicely comfortable budget, and perhaps still are within the top 4 regarding budgets.

BTW anyone staying up for an F1 marathon tomorrow?! Wo betide anyone who puts it in the wall.:eek:

i am, 1:50 - 330 quali 6-9 race! Should be a fun all nighter. I only ever pull an all nighter for the superbowl because it's on in the middle of the night here so i will be following my SB routine for the f1. Beer, nachos and something caffeinated. Sleep at 9am.
 
DVR does just nicely for me. :)

Haha am tempted but have a boozy night out planned so could be interesting. Gotta be RBR for the win - Vettel seemed to do best last season with no practice beforehand, but Button and Alonso are always good bets for consistency and keeping it quick on the road.
 
Thought I'd be late to the discussion, but it looks like nobody said anything since the race!

Given the gap that emerged up front I'm surprised how close Vettle, Webber and Alonso were in crossing the line. Maybe Vettle slowed down, but the Speed announcers stated that Alonson had been catching Webber.

Too bad for Hamilton - guy can't catch a break the past month. I thought he would have caught Alonso, which would have made for something entertaining to watch. At least his gearbox held together for the remainder of the race.

Seemed like Petrov cut over before he was clear. Apparently the stewards said no since he's dropping 5 spots next race. http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/10/11377.html I wonder if his seat is safe for next season or not.

Sad to see Nick go so quickly after just coming back. I wonder why they didn't stick with DLR until the end of the season if they were going to go with somebody new for the 2011 season. I guess Nick had extra funding?
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.