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2017 MacBook Pro 13 non-TB Review

parajba

macrumors 6502
Apr 19, 2008
420
132
My 2 cents. I am an average user (Office, Citrix, YouTube, music, photos etc) and the fan has not even come on yet in 4 months of use. This thing is super quiet under normal use (and really fast). My config: i7/16/512.
 

Acronyc

macrumors 6502a
Jan 24, 2011
753
260
The fan in nTB model is a different model from all other Macs from now. iFix It folks even call it a "cheap fan".

It is definitely loud and noisy even on low RPMs.

I'm just curious where iFixit said this? I've read all of their teardowns of the nTB models and unless I missed something they never said it was a cheap fan.

I have a 2016 nTB (i5/16/512) and it is definitely NOT loud and noisy, even at low RPMs. The fan is at 0RPM with a low load and goes up to about 1200RPM when at a higher load, but even 1200RPM is inaudible. My machine rarely goes above 1200RPM.

As for the 2017 nTB, I don't know as I've never used this machine.
 

Fravin

macrumors 6502
Mar 8, 2017
252
131
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
I have a 2016 nTB (i5/16/512) and it is definitely NOT loud and noisy, even at low RPMs. The fan is at 0RPM with a low load and goes up to about 1200RPM when at a higher load, but even 1200RPM is inaudible. My machine rarely goes above 1200RPM.

Like OP ones, but try to connect an external 4K monitor and you hear it screaming.... OP MBP reaches 6k RPMs.

Take a look at this:

Our test therefore starts with the ambient noise of 30.5 dB(A). The MacBook is basically silent for the first couple of minutes and reached up to 3300 rpm and 31.2 dB(A). After that, we noticed a linear increase to 40.4 dB(A) at 5870 rpm. We also selected the maximum fan speed at 7200 rpm manually via istat and measured up to 45.4 dB(A)
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...without-Touch-Bar-Laptop-Review.182374.0.html

40dB at 5.8k RPM. Does it sounds fine for you?
 
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bhatiak

macrumors member
Oct 25, 2017
65
17
I'm just curious where iFixit said this? I've read all of their teardowns of the nTB models and unless I missed something they never said it was a cheap fan.

I have a 2016 nTB (i5/16/512) and it is definitely NOT loud and noisy, even at low RPMs. The fan is at 0RPM with a low load and goes up to about 1200RPM when at a higher load, but even 1200RPM is inaudible. My machine rarely goes above 1200RPM.

As for the 2017 nTB, I don't know as I've never used this machine.

What do you do that your machine rarely goes above 1200 RPM? Simply using FaceTime or Streaming Twitch will get my fan in the audible range.
 

Acronyc

macrumors 6502a
Jan 24, 2011
753
260
Like OP ones, but try to connect an external 4K monitor and you hear it screaming.... OP MBP reaches 6k RPMs.

Take a look at this:

Our test therefore starts with the ambient noise of 30.5 dB(A). The MacBook is basically silent for the first couple of minutes and reached up to 3300 rpm and 31.2 dB(A). After that, we noticed a linear increase to 40.4 dB(A) at 5870 rpm. We also selected the maximum fan speed at 7200 rpm manually via istat and measured up to 45.4 dB(A)
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...without-Touch-Bar-Laptop-Review.182374.0.html

40dB at 5.8k RPM. Does it sounds fine for you?

That's not from iFixit, though I think Notebookcheck is a great review source.

As for the quote from the link you provided, you have to look at it in context. You didn't include the part where they explained they were testing fan noise using the Unigine Valley GPU benchmark. I'm pretty sure most laptops will have their fan(s) spin up very high when running this benchmark. The article also stated:

However, we never reached the maximum fan speed with any of our reviewed Macs.
This means that when the fan is manipulated to run at the maximum speed with software it measures up to 45.4dB(A), but this never occurred in real-world use for these reviewers.

While it is different than the 2015 model, if you look at Notebookcheck's review of the 2015 13" MBP you will see that when using 3D applications (such as the Unigine Valley GPU benchmark) the fan in the 2015 13" MBP goes up to 44dB(A) at 5200 RPM, which is louder at a lower speed than the 40dB(A). As for your question, yes, I think it is normal for a fan to spin up to a high RPM and be loud when it is running intensive applications like a GPU benchmark.

As for OP's 2017 nTB MBP, something is definitely wrong and I'm not doubting the problems the OP has had. It seems there are fan problems with this model. Though to be sure we would need a larger sample size.

I only have my 2016 nTB to compare it with and it has been just as quiet as any Mac I've ever had (except my now sold 2015 MacBook, which has no fan). It runs on average at 0RPM for a lot of my workload and goes up to 1200RPM if it is working a bit harder. I don't have access to a 4K monitor to see if that makes the fan spin up more and this is a test I'm curious to run.
[doublepost=1520248416][/doublepost]
What do you do that your machine rarely goes above 1200 RPM? Simply using FaceTime or Streaming Twitch will get my fan in the audible range.

I work a lot in office applications, Internet, mail, prototyping software, light image editing, light coding, and iTunes for music. Right now I have Safari with 6 tabs, AirMail, Word, Excel, Axure RP, and Numbers open and my fan is at 0RPM (and has been at 0RPM all morning). I've attached some images and you can see it's not a big load on the CPU, which is probably the cause of the low fan. When I have all of the previous applications open and then also run image editing software and iTunes the fan might go up to 1200RPM (which is inaudible in my working environment). I don't hear the fan 95% of the time when I use the machine.

I don't FaceTime or stream video on my machine regularly. I'll do this as a test to see if it makes the fan noise any worse.

mbp-activity.png
mbp-fan.png
 
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.Danny

macrumors newbie
Jan 6, 2006
16
4
Croatia
I think perhaps OP has some unrealistic expectations from a 13" laptop with integrated graphics. I think a big part of this blame should be attributed to Apple and the marketing, but not all of it. After all many companies will advertise unrealistic things. We as consumers also need to do our due diligence.

I've owned Mac laptops for a decade now. From a 12" iBook to a 2010 17" MBP to a 15" 2012 MBP (Retina). All of these have served me faithfully for many years. The only victim so far has been the iBooks battery (works just fine without it inserted though).

I recently bought a 13" MBP nTB and I have to say I'm quite happy with the machine. My 2012 has been used as a workstation the entire time with an external 4k display (unfortunately in 30hz only). The fact that integrated graphics can now outperform a dGPU from a few years ago is pretty amazing if you ask me.

The key thing to using clamshell mode is to not actually use it. Get a tiny magnet, find the spot that triggers the laptops sensor of the lid being closed and put the magnet on that spot. Boom you now have clamshell mode, and at the same time you're not heat stressing your keyboard and display nearly as much. I thought this trick was not anything spectacularly innovative but perhaps I was wrong?

With just 1 fan it's expected that if you stress the machine it will be audible. If you intend to use it as a workstation then help it along a little bit. The fact you want to use clamshell mode means you don't care about the internal display. So then get a laptop cooling thing (sorry I don't know the right term) and put the MBP on it, and use the magnet trick as well. The laptop cooler I got was some gaming one with a huge fan and it is virtually silent because it's a big low-rpm fan. I've done this for my 15" and it helped immensely with cooling.

Heat destroys components, who would have thought. These are small light laptops, not a workstation. With some care and thought you can easily make it work as both though.

As for pure performance if you're unhappy with that then you shouldn't have gotten a laptop with a integrated graphics card. I really don't see the issue here. To me it's amazing this thing can drive a 4k at 60hz at all. I wouldn't expect it to perform perfectly smoothly considering the graphics card.

I'm really curious if I can replicate the same CPU utilization on a external 4k display when watching YouTube etc. I've got a thunderbolt 3 dock on the way (backordered so it will be a few weeks before I get it) and once I get it I'll do some tests and report back with temps and fan RPMs. Because with just the internal display watching full-screen YouTube I'm at 52 C and 1200 rpm fan (after letting it run for 15 minutes).
 
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raymanh

macrumors regular
Aug 27, 2017
190
116
I don't understand all these posts that are critical of the OP, in both his knowledge and expectation of what his MBP should be able to do.

1. Clearly OP has knowledge that is in the upper end of what most people have here, and insults to his qualifications are just silly anyway:

I've fixed computers before, and your in over your head my friend.

versus OP:

Me, I have 25 years in technology - from operating system coding (BSD which made its way into MacOS) to managing massive fleets of computers, I am an Amazon #1 Bestseller Author and regular speaker at technology conferences, I have a degree in physics and a masters in advanced computing, I run classes teaching kids about hardware and undergrads about software. I ran two major tech communities in London with a combined membership of about 7,000. My first job was designing and looking after robots and their controllers sent into civil nuclear reactors. I was coding at the age of 7. My last job was modernising technology security in a major organisation employing 200,000 employees.

That backfired spectacularly
2. The expectation of OP is not unreasonable:

a) Within what Apple claims it can do
b) Within what a machine with those specifications should do (hence comparisons to older laptops)
c) To cement all the above, other user's experiences which show the MBP 13 2016/17 nTB CAN drive a 4k monitor and NOT cause excessive fan speed and heat.​

Clearly then, the OP has a lemon and it's Apple's duty to fix it, no matter how much time and money they spend (they can kind of afford it). Which brings me on to the other type of criticism which goes along the lines of 'get over it/take a loss/move on'. Whatever happened to principle?

All the best in your legal action OP, and keep us updated.
 

kudos212

Suspended
Jan 20, 2018
43
37
Like OP ones, but try to connect an external 4K monitor and you hear it screaming.... OP MBP reaches 6k RPMs.

Take a look at this:

Dude you already didn't prove anything. I checked fixit and they did not call it a cheap fan. You lost, give up.



"Me, I have 25 years in technology - from operating system coding (BSD which made its way into MacOS) to managing massive fleets of computers, I am an Amazon #1 Bestseller Author and regular speaker at technology conferences, I have a degree in physics and a masters in advanced computing, I run classes teaching kids about hardware and undergrads about software. I ran two major tech communities in London with a combined membership of about 7,000. My first job was designing and looking after robots and their controllers sent into civil nuclear reactors. I was coding at the age of 7. My last job was modernising technology security in a major organisation employing 200,000 employees."

Wow, if he actually did all of this and still doesn't know how to use a computer I honestly can't help him. He's using a macrumors website to try to find information he clearly had this info the whole entire time. I mean seriously, why would he make stuff up.

OP has already been proven wrong by buying a 15" quad core computer and realizing his last computer did not have enough power. It's been said many times but some posters just do not understand unfortunately.
 
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raymanh

macrumors regular
Aug 27, 2017
190
116
Wow, if he actually did all of this and still doesn't know how to use a computer I honestly can't help him. He's using a macrumors website to try to find information he clearly had this info the whole entire time. I mean seriously, why would he make stuff up.

I'm not sure you know how computers work if you think OPs case is simply that he using the laptop outside it's operating window. As lots of people have said here, they have been able to drive their 4k monitors with their dual core 2016/17 MBP 13s without excessive heat. The question here isn't that OP is expecting too much, its that OPs device is clearly faulty.

OP has already been proven wrong by buying a 15" quad core computer and realizing his last computer did not have enough power. It's been said many times but some posters just do not understand unfortunately.


OP bought an older MBP for reliability, as he said. You're comparing a 15" quad core to a faulty 13"; he very much hasn't been proven wrong. As above, a non-faulty MBP 2017 13" will drive a 4k display easily. See youtube videos and see Apples specs. OP gets excessive heat when playing ONE video on an external 4k monitor! You can't think that's not abnormal?

I think OP is just trying to raise awareness about his problems and the how inadequate his local Apple stores are in trying to help him. His device is faulty, and Apple has not rectified that (they don't get effort points).
 
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Jul 4, 2015
4,488
2,549
Paris
The keyboard has less travel indeed because if the laptop slims down the travel has to decrease. That's the trade off. It has been happening for many years in the computer sector. I do prefer more travel but if you want a slim notebook you can't complain.

You need to adapt your typing skills. Your muscles will forget the old method and adjust. You will find that the keyboard has extremely good stability.
 

randomgeeza

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2014
452
263
United Kingdom
Wow, have just read the audit in full.

And I thought I had a bad time of it.

I originally had a 2015 model which went though several repairs in an attempt to remedy a staingate issue but then the subsequent screens all had backlight bleed. Needless to say, the several repairs never fixed the problem of bleed and I was offered a brand new replacement 2017 machine, following a formal complaint made to my local Apple Store.

Unfortunately, the 2017 MBPTB developed a fault and showed signs of prior use. I complained again and it was at this juncture that things got ugly with Apple.

I ended up emailing TC after four weeks of ping pong-ing with Apple. Although, I never got a reply, within seven days of emailing his office, I had a new machine, an apology and Apple calling daily to check that everything was satisfactory.

And, since then that machine too developed a screen issue and faulty ports. However, on raising that with them, I had another replacement machine given to me. And that took 40 minutes.

Millage certainly varies...
 
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Mainsail

macrumors 68000
Sep 19, 2010
1,536
1,688
Interesting - Apple seems to acknowledge the 2016/7 MBP keyboard disaster. They've patented a method for preventing a speck of dust from destroying them:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/9/17100594/apple-patent-dirt-debris-liquid-snacks


I am glad to see this. Perhaps, it means Apple is taking the problem seriously and future MacBooks will not have a defective/faulty keyboard. As it currently stands, I bought my last MacBook in 2014 unless they fix the keyboard failures.

I am not talking about adapting to shallow key travel or personal preference issues. I am talking about a keyboard that is clearly prone to failure due to the faulty butterfly mechanism.
 

project_2501

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 1, 2017
417
410
Update 46 - The Law Won

Apple lost the case. The law found
  • Extremely poor customer service.
  • Evidence of Apple staff lying or being incompetent.
  • Acknowledgement of mounting evidence (in other places and cases) of a fundamental design fault with the 2016/2017 MBPs. A known wider issues can help individual cases.
  • Validation of my evidence.
  • Inadequacy of Apple testing - deliberate or incompetence.
  • Customer (me) going above and beyond to work with Apple to resolve issue, at I significant cost to myself.
 
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ncrypt

macrumors 6502
May 16, 2012
343
240
UK
Update 46 - The Law Won

Apple lost the case. The law found
  • Extremely poor customer service.
  • Evidence of Apple staff lying or being incompetent.
  • Acknowledgement of mounting evidence (in other places and cases) of a fundamental design fault with the 2016/2017 MBPs. A known wider issues can help individual cases.
  • Validation of my evidence.
  • Inadequacy of Apple testing - deliberate or incompetence.
  • Customer (me) going above and beyond to work with Apple to resolve issue, at sihnigisign cost to myself.
Congratulations OP
 

csurfr

macrumors 68020
Dec 7, 2016
2,310
1,748
Seattle, WA
Update 46 - The Law Won

Apple lost the case. The law found
  • Extremely poor customer service.
  • Evidence of Apple staff lying or being incompetent.
  • Acknowledgement of mounting evidence (in other places and cases) of a fundamental design fault with the 2016/2017 MBPs. A known wider issues can help individual cases.
  • Validation of my evidence.
  • Inadequacy of Apple testing - deliberate or incompetence.
  • Customer (me) going above and beyond to work with Apple to resolve issue, at I significant cost to myself.

I would think that this could have broader implications for those that are having issues with their 2017 machines. Especially if the court found (and put in their decision) bullet point number 3.
 

Acronyc

macrumors 6502a
Jan 24, 2011
753
260
Update 46 - The Law Won

Apple lost the case. The law found
  • Extremely poor customer service.
  • Evidence of Apple staff lying or being incompetent.
  • Acknowledgement of mounting evidence (in other places and cases) of a fundamental design fault with the 2016/2017 MBPs. A known wider issues can help individual cases.
  • Validation of my evidence.
  • Inadequacy of Apple testing - deliberate or incompetence.
  • Customer (me) going above and beyond to work with Apple to resolve issue, at I significant cost to myself.

Congratulations OP, good to see that you got this resolved. You definitely have more persistence than I would have had.

One question: was this decision found by a judge, or was a settlement reached? I'm curious as the excerpt above doesn't show all the details as to whether this was a settlement offered or a legal judgement (it seems like a settlement by the wording).

I would imagine if a legal judgement against Apple was reached it would have more far-reaching implications than a settlement.
 

taropoo

macrumors newbie
Mar 22, 2018
1
0
Hi OP, I am just wondering after all these happened (sorry btw), do you still want a Mac? And if so, did you end up getting a Macbook Pro 13" 2015?
 

Natzoo

macrumors 68000
Sep 16, 2014
1,550
293
I'm glad justice has won this, this is only due to your hard work and persistence. I don't think anyone else would've gone to the steps you have done, I applaud you. Is there any law about this in the U.S? I'm scared about upgrading my mac and I'm not going to anytime soon. I miss the Steve Jobs era
 

project_2501

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 1, 2017
417
410
Thanks everyone who gave words of support.

I hope this is a small but important example of not letting a massive powerful well resourced corporation get away with bad products and poor customer service ... and not letting some voices get you down, keeping in mind corporations do pay people and agencies to intervene on social media and forums to protect their public image.

The only thing these companies fear is consumers losing their fear.
 

bcave098

macrumors 6502a
Sep 6, 2015
516
207
Northern British Columbia
Congratulations OP, good to see that you got this resolved. You definitely have more persistence than I would have had.

One question: was this decision found by a judge, or was a settlement reached? I'm curious as the excerpt above doesn't show all the details as to whether this was a settlement offered or a legal judgement (it seems like a settlement by the wording).

I would imagine if a legal judgement against Apple was reached it would have more far-reaching implications than a settlement.
I’m also curious if this was a settlement or a judgement. It’s worded like it’s an offer of a settlement, in which case “the law” didn’t find anything. More that Apple’s legal team didn’t think it would be worth the cost to fight.
 
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