Star Wars the Upcoming Episode 9: Redemption for Disney?

[decafjava]

Thanks to @Huntn after a discussion for this thread. I just wanted to start a conversation as to whether the upcoming Episode 9 will help restore the SW franchise, especially the sequel series among those long time fans that were let down by the direction of Abrams/Disney SW.

My own background: I saw SW in the cinema in 1977 when I was 11 years old (yes Han shot first) and read and re-read the novelisation and was hooked - I was already a Trek fan as well. Loved the next 2 films and in 1999 as an adult and already living in Europe was eager to see the prequels. Well, I honestly enjoyed them (except for finding Jar Jar annoying and unnecessary) especially the last one - and agreeing with Huntn that Anakin's turn was a bit too abrupt. I have checked out some of the animated series, Clone Wars and think it did a lot to fill in the prequel back-story with better writing and much better character development (I also like the Rebels series which is set in between the prequel and OT era).

I was honestly thrilled with the upcoming sequel back in 2015 and while it was a bit too much of a riff on a New Hope was looking forward to the next episodes: i also really liked the new young cast and wanted to see the payoff with their development.

I saw Rogue One and was blown away, and so was very eager for the Last Jedi. I saw it and felt - well after the special effects spectacle - not sure I was perplexed with it and why I wasn't so enthusiastic about it.

I then found this clip that put into words what I felt and why I could now say I thought the prequels were better - an opinion many fellow fans do not share.

This guy articulates it exactly for me, no direction in the story. No underlying vision.

What say you?

Here is more info about 9, this one from @Huntn

https://www.nme.com/blogs/the-movies-blog/star-wars-episode-9-release-date-trailer-1961269

 

[Mac'nCheese]

Sorry I tried to watch the video but I can’t listen to this guy. The way he starts and stops mid sentence. Anyway, if he is saying that at least the prequels had a story by one filmmaker and the sequels don’t, yup! That’s why I don’t think the next movie can be good. Where can they go with what they did? Destroyed the main baddie too soon. Shot down the backstory of our lead. Made our heroes a rag tag bunch of rebels fighting against the huge bad guys. We are back to where we were during Star Wars and empire.

 

[Huntn]

Thanks to @Huntn after a discussion for this thread. I just wanted to start a conversation as to whether the upcoming Episode 9 will help restore the SW franchise, especially the sequel series among those long time fans that were let down by the direction of Abrams/Disney SW.

My own background: I saw SW in the cinema in 1977 when I was 11 years old (yes Han shot first) and read and re-read the novelisation and was hooked - I was already a Trek fan as well. Loved the next 2 films and in 1999 as an adult and already living in Europe was eager to see the prequels. Well, I honestly enjoyed them (except for finding Jar Jar annoying and unnecessary) especially the last one - and agreeing with Huntn that Anakin's turn was a bit too abrupt. I have checked out some of the animated series, Clone Wars and think it did a lot to fill in the prequel back-story with better writing and much better character development (I also like the Rebels series which is set in between the prequel and OT era).

I was honestly thrilled with the upcoming sequel back in 2015 and while it was a bit too much of a riff on a New Hope was looking forward to the next episodes: i also really liked the new young cast and wanted to see the payoff with their development.

I saw Rogue One and was blown away, and so was very eager for the Last Jedi. I saw it and felt - well after the special effects spectacle - not sure I was perplexed with it and why I wasn't so enthusiastic about it.

I then found this clip that put into words what I felt and why I could now say I thought the prequels were better - an opinion many fellow fans do not share.

This guy articulates it exactly for me, no direction in the story. No underlying vision.

What say you?

Here is more info about 9, this one from @Huntn

https://www.nme.com/blogs/the-movies-blog/star-wars-episode-9-release-date-trailer-1961269

With the mess of a story so far (7&8) I see no redemption for Disney unless they do something incredibly drastic, like start over with something else that happens post the Battle of Endore, maybe they can pick up a story line from a neaghboring Galaxy.

Sorry I tried to watch the video but I can’t listen to this guy. The way he starts and stops mid sentence. Anyway, if he is saying that at least the prequels had a story by one filmmaker and the sequels don’t, yup! That’s why I don’t think the next movie can be good. Where can they go with what they did? Destroyed the main baddie too soon. Shot down the backstory of our lead. Made our heroes a rag tag bunch of rebels fighting against the huge bad guys. We are back to where we were during Star Wars and empire.

Because they did not have a SINGLE NEW IDEA for this franchise. A new original story arc would,required way too much effort and risk. So they calculated correctly that if it was made, they would come no matter what kind of recycled garbage as long as it was sprinkled with SW dust, they’d rake in a billion or two and they were right. The feeling of disgust started with Episode 7 and as a malingering crud, I had to take a Rogue One vaccination which kept the malaise away for a while.

 

[Mac'nCheese]

With the mess of a story so far (7&8) I see no redemption for Disney unless they do something incredibly drastic, like start over with something else that happens post the Battle of Endore, maybe they can pick up a story line from a neaghboring Galaxy.


Because they did not have a SINGLE NEW IDEA for this franchise. A new original story arc would,required way too much effort and risk. So they calculated correctly that if it was made, they would come no matter what kind of recycled garbage as long as it was sprinkled with SW dust, they’d rake in a billion or two and they were right. The feeling of disgust started with Episode 7 and as a malingering crud, I had to take a Rogue One vaccination which kept the malaise away for a while.

The way I see it is, eps 1-3 and eps 7-9 were all unnecessary but at least eps 1-3 had a story to tell. We didn’t need to see it and it was done poorly, but there was something there. 7-9: there isn’t a story to tell. Especially that soon after return of Jedi. Maybe hundred years later. But Jedi has a happy ending. The emperor was gone, the empire should have fallen, period. But force awakens opens with the alliance still being a small group of rebels fighting this new order that came to be how? It didn’t make sense. And like you posted, it’s the same old story now. Good guy versus bad with someone learning the force and blah blah blah fart. The marvel films have different directors and writers but they have a guiding producer with a vision for an overall story. We don’t have that in these final three films so they are a mess.

 

[decafjava]

The way I see it is, eps 1-3 and eps 7-9 were all unnecessary but at least eps 1-3 had a story to tell. We didn’t need to see it and it was done poorly, but there was something there. 7-9: there isn’t a story to tell. Especially that soon after return of Jedi. Maybe hundred years later. But Jedi has a happy ending. The emperor was gone, the empire should have fallen, period. But force awakens opens with the alliance still being a small group of rebels fighting this new order that came to be how? It didn’t make sense. And like you posted, it’s the same old story now. Good guy versus bad with someone learning the force and blah blah blah fart. The marvel films have different directors and writers but they have a guiding producer with a vision for an overall story. We don’t have that in these final three films so they are a mess.

That's the thing, it might have - and there was some explanation given in other official media. As someone who did all my university studies in history I know everytime an empire or large polity falls, especially a dictatorship, it can get messy. Considering the galaxy went through two devastating wars with a brutal regime in-between it's "realistic" to see something like a First Order inspired by the idea of Nazis setting up a regime in South America after their defeat. Or we could have left the happy ending and gone with your idea set a century later.

The worst about this though is the reaction of fans, I honestly don't care if people have a different subjective opinion than mine but there is a really toxic group of fans who didn't like the sequels, in particular TLJ, for all the wrong reasons. Any criticism now is lumped in with these fans and it is disheartening.

 

[Huntn]

That's the thing, it might have - and there was some explanation given in other official media. As someone who did all my university studies in history I know everytime an empire or large polity falls, especially a dictatorship, it can get messy. Considering the galaxy went through two devastating wars with a brutal regime in-between it's "realistic" to see something like a First Order inspired by the idea of Nazis setting up a regime in South America after their defeat. Or we could have left the happy ending and gone with your idea set a century later.

The worst about this though is the reaction of fans, I honestly don't care if people have a different subjective opinion than mine but there is a really toxic group of fans who didn't like the sequels, in particular TLJ, for all the wrong reasons. Any criticism now is lumped in with these fans and it is disheartening.

I’m curious what are the reasons the toxic group of fans hate the new trilogy? Are they reasonable or unreasonable, as I hope I’m not included in that group. It would be curious if they like the new trilogy plot, but dislike it for other reasons. Is that possible?
[doublepost=1552315494][/doublepost]If anyone is interested in the history of forum comments based on the The New SW Triolgy, and check out the links in my signature, which is actually 2 separate links, one for episode 7 and one for 8.

Episode 7: Star Wars VII Spoiler alerts.
Dec 17, 2015 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/star-wars-vii-spoiler-alerts.1945267/

Dec 24, 2015
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/star-wars-vii-spoiler-alerts.1945267/page-6#post-22396167


Episode 8: Thread: Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion (WARNING: SPOILERS EVERYWHERE)
Dec14, 2017 https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...scussion-warning-spoilers-everywhere.2095192/

Dec 22, 2017
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ilers-everywhere.2095192/page-9#post-25626352

 

[decafjava]

I’m curious what are the reasons the toxic group of fans hate the new trilogy? Are they reasonable or unreasonable, as I hope I’m not included in that group. It would be curious if they like the new trilogy plot , but dislike it for other reasons. Is that possible?

Not like you at all my fellow sci-fi fan, these are "alt-right" types who whine modern entertainment has been taken over by SJWs (never mind both Carrie Fisher and the character she portrayed were very feminist - remember how annoyed she was at the clumsiness of her "rescuers" on the Death Star). There were incidents were one actor, Kelly Tran who played Rose on TLJ, was bullied off social media because of attacks on her character on the film and even her appearance. There were also some whines about John Boyega being cast as a stormtrooper.

No not at all the same.

 

[Mac'nCheese]

Not like you at all my fellow sci-fi fan, these are "alt-right" types who whine modern entertainment has been taken over by SJWs (never mind both Carrie Fisher and the character she portrayed were very feminist - remember how annoyed she was at the clumsiness of her "rescuers" on the Death Star). There were incidents were one actor, Kelly Tran who played Rose on TLJ, was bullied off social media because of attacks on her character on the film and even her appearance. There were also some whines about John Boyega being cast as a stormtrooper.

No not at all the same.

Right, the same incels are now bashing Captain Marvel without seeing it because they can't handle the commercial that highlighted the HER in A HERO and mixed up her comments of A Wrinkle In Time with CM.

 

[MacNut]

The bigger problem is over saturation. They are releasing these movies way to close to each other. We need a good 3-5 years in between. This would be like if they released a James Bond movie every 2 years.

 

[Mac'nCheese]

The bigger problem is over saturation. They are releasing these movies way to close to each other. We need a good 3-5 years in between. This would be like if they released a James Bond movie every 2 years.

I agree. Just cause it works for Marvel doesn't mean it works for every universe.

 

[Huntn]

Not like you at all my fellow sci-fi fan, these are "alt-right" types who whine modern entertainment has been taken over by SJWs (never mind both Carrie Fisher and the character she portrayed were very feminist - remember how annoyed she was at the clumsiness of her "rescuers" on the Death Star). There were incidents were one actor, Kelly Tran who played Rose on TLJ, was bullied off social media because of attacks on her character on the film and even her appearance. There were also some whines about John Boyega being cast as a stormtrooper.

No not at all the same.

I was not inspired by Rose or Finn’s characters in the movie. I could go as far to say Kelly Tran was mistype cast, but not because of her gender or ethninticity. Maybe that is my issue, but what happened to her in social media was clearly wrong and cruel.

An interesting analysis of two character arcs in TLJ. My issues with these movies is the blatantly repetitive nature and direct parallels pulled from the previous films making them de facto remakes. Walking out of episode 7, my wife said “We already saw this movie”.

 

[CLS727]

I think you're just expecting too much....

Disney has been pretty clear that the new Star Wars trilogy is not for Star Wars fans from 1977..... they're aimed entirely at a new younger audience of the SJW folks.

 

[Huntn]

I think you're just expecting too much....

Disney has been pretty clear that the new Star Wars trilogy is not for Star Wars fans from 1977..... they're aimed entirely at a new younger audience of the SJW folks.

If directed at me, expecting creativity and originality never goes out of style.

 

[Mac'nCheese]

I think you're just expecting too much....

Disney has been pretty clear that the new Star Wars trilogy is not for Star Wars fans from 1977..... they're aimed entirely at a new younger audience of the SJW folks.

Are you joking around a little or did she come out and say some crazy SJW crap?

 

[Mousse]

There were also some whines about John Boyega being cast as a stormtrooper.

What were the complaints? Was he "too short?"

Anyhow, SW after the original original trilogy (Han shot first) were all misses in my book. The Star Wars universe is vast and there are more characters to SW than the Skywalker clan. Why does everything SW have to revolve around the Skywalkers? I for one would learn more about the other heroes of the Rebel Alliance: Biggs, Wedge, Admiral Ackbar. I want to see Ackbar's rise in rank and how serving with Captain Obvious cultivated his ability to state the obvious.

 

[Mac'nCheese]

What were the complaints? Was he "too short?"

Anyhow, SW after the original original trilogy (Han shot first) were all misses in my book. The Star Wars universe is vast and there are more characters to SW than the Skywalker clan. Why does everything SW have to revolve around the Skywalkers? I for one would learn more about the other heroes of the Rebel Alliance: Biggs, Wedge, Admiral Ackbar. I want to see Ackbar's rise in rank and how serving with Captain Obvious cultivated his ability to state the obvious.

I would rather see it set in the Star Wars universe and not see any characters we know of. Like Rogue One. Just a good action story. I don't need the backstory on how Han got his name or how Admiral Ackbar left his swamp planet to fight the empire.

 

[kramerdude]

I was seven years old in 1977 and waited in long lines to see "Star Wars". So, it was most definitely part of my childhood and loved ever since. I didn't mind Ep 7 so much, except - Just like Mark Hamill said, why in the world would you not after decades reunite all of the main characters? Wasted opportunity. Who was the old man with the map to Luke? Why did he have it? How did Ben know him? Other than that, it introduced interesting (at least it seemed) new characters. Ep 8 is just an awful mess. SO MANY PROBLEMS and setups thrown away. Luke Skywalker was thrown away. The entire time we have known him, he has always rushed to help his friends/family. Give him the historic lightsaber? Throw it away. How was the lightsaber retrieved? Doesn't matter. Why did R2D2 wake up at the perfect time? Rey is an orphaned nobody that can outduel a trained dark side force user the first time she picks up a lightsaber. Yoda and Obi Wan speak to Rey in Ep7, and it is ignored in 8. Her parents were thrown away. She was tempted by the dark side and Luke guided her away, but thought about killing Ben instead. Yoda can shoot lightning from the beyond somehow, but doesn't help the resistance fight? What about Obi Wan? Where did Vader's helmet come from? Admiral Akbar was thrown away. Phasma was thrown away. Snoke was thrown away. Knights of Ren thrown away. In space, bombers move at 5mph? Casino - pointless, enough said. The resistance is down to very few people, but you can't let your best pilot in on the plans? Kylo can freeze people with the force and stop laser blasts, but struggles with Snoke's guards. The sacred Jedi writings - just fry them, they're boring anyway. Of course, I'm a lifelong fanboy, but what a mess! What in the world can Abrams do to salvage this?

 

[MacNut]

People criticized George Lucas for the awful moves he made with Episode 1. The horrible edits he made to the original trilogy to change the story. Everyone was thrilled when he sold the franchise to Disney. Now all of a sudden they are pissed off that Disney turned Star Wars into Disney movies?

 

[CLS727]

People criticized George Lucas for the awful moves he made with Episode 1. The horrible edits he made to the original trilogy to change the story. Everyone was thrilled when he sold the franchise to Disney. Now all of a sudden they are pissed off that Disney turned Star Wars into Disney movies?

True!

 

[MacNut]

Lucas said he had treatments for 7-9 that Disney threw out. Either they were just as bad as 1-3 or they obviously wanted to take the films into a different direction.

 

[rhett7660]

We can hope... Although, I am not really holding my breath. I will go see it, on opening weekend, but I am going in with low expectations. Very low.

 

[shinji]

I'm still annoyed they won't be making a Boba Fett movie. https://variety.com/2018/film/news/star-wars-boba-fett-spinoff-1202999142/

Anyway, I liked Episode VII. Sure, the plot was predictable and it felt like A New Hope Remixed, but it was a fun movie that brought Star Wars to a new generation. Nothing wrong with that, and Disney could've done a lot worse.

Episode VIII, however, sucked and was my least favorite Star Wars movie of all. Worse than Episode I. Maybe Episode IX can redeem Disney to the extent it'll be better than VIII, but that's not a high bar.

 

[Mousse]

People criticized George Lucas for the awful moves he made with Episode 1.

Well, the whole virgin birth thing was a bit iffy. Who would believe that? And Jar Jar.

The horrible edits he made to the original trilogy to change the story.

Adding some F/X was a nice touch, but he should never have messed with "HAN SHOT FIRST!" That one scene complete altered the character of Han Solo. Boo...Hiss...

 

[decafjava]

Well, the whole virgin birth thing was a bit iffy. Who would believe that? And Jar Jar.

Adding some F/X was a nice touch, but he should never have messed with "HAN SHOT FIRST!" That one scene complete altered the character of Han Solo. Boo...Hiss...

Agreed and also putting Ian McDiarmid's face in Empire Strikes Back since he was one of the few actors who played well in the OT and the Prequels.

 

[Huntn]

Well, the whole virgin birth thing was a bit iffy. Who would believe that? And Jar Jar.

Adding some F/X was a nice touch, but he should never have messed with "HAN SHOT FIRST!" That one scene complete altered the character of Han Solo. Boo...Hiss...

I never got why they had to mess with that scene. They really dorked it, to make Hans seem nicer... WHY LUCAS??