Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion (WARNING: SPOILERS EVERYWHERE)

[VanNess]

Kathleen Kennedy, JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson, and the entire Disney is ruining SW

Everyone seems to blame Disney for whatever pet peeve they have about the films, but Kennedy has creative control and calls the shots. She green-lights the movies, hires and fires directors (should have added one more to the fire list as it turned out). Disney brass will only get involved when their accountants tell them to get involved.

So in a way I don't blame Johnson for everything wrong in TLJ (which is pretty much the entire overly long film) but Kennedy for not intervening when it was clear the script for this film stopped making any sense and was cheating the audience out of everything that was set up before in TFA for no apparent reason. For one thing should have listened to Mark Hamel. That was a mistake.

 

[Mac'nCheese]

I never understood why Han never paid his bounty before Empire. There was a three year gap and Boba Fett was still out to get him. It's like in Back To The Future Part III. Where was the DeLorean that Doc came with in 1885? They only focused on the one Marty came with.

They couldn’t really do much with 1885 Delorean because it has to stay in the cave so Marty could find it in the 50s. I guess they could have used some
Of the gas that was in the tank and left the rest for Marty to use decades later. Or he could have just bought more in the future. But if they did that, no movie.
[doublepost=1513816593][/doublepost]

Everyone seems to blame Disney for whatever pet peeve they have about the films, but Kennedy has creative control and calls the shots. She green-lights the movies, hires and fires directors (should have added one more to the fire list as it turned out). Disney brass will only get involved when their accountants tell them to get involved.

So in a way I don't blame Johnson for everything wrong in TLJ (which is pretty much the entire overly long film) but Kennedy for not intervening when it was clear the script for this film stopped making any sense and was cheating the audience out of everything that was set up before in TFA for no apparent reason. For one thing should have listened to Mark Hamel. That was a mistake.

Right. It felt like J.J did his movie and then passed it off to Rian and he did his take on it. The first trilogy at least had Lucas writing the stories and guiding the new directors and screen writers so the films all felt like one long story. This one went off in such a different direction, story wise and character wise. Now J.J is going to go back to his style. It doesn’t work well.

 

[KingslayerG5]

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42424445

Empire's Helen O'Hara explains: "There were many more characters in this installment that weren't white men, and that has been a shift that some fans have found unconsciously upsetting or alienating. They've felt excluded by that.

"And some men have openly complained that there are too many girls running around the Star Wars universe, which I personally think is crazy."

It's not an ethnicity or gender problem for me. These new SW characters suck. My favorite in DCEU is Wonder Woman. I liked Hela in Ragnarok although I felt Cate was underutilized. I plan to see Black Panther in Feb. Glenn was one of my favorites in The Walking Dead. I'm a huge Michelle Yeoh fan and was happy to see her in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2.

I'm cool with Rose Tico as Kelly Marie Tran seems like a great girl in real life and happy for her overnight success. Her character isn't necessary and she isn't the type to sell merchandise. Like nobody is going run out to get her action figure.

I wanted to know more about Chirrut and Baze in Rogue One and don't care if they were an item or not. I am a Neil Patrick Harris fan to not care about stuff like that. I watch HK films since I was a kid, so male or female Asian characters don't bother me.

I still can't get over how bad the writing is in The Last Jedi. I thought the film was going to be about Luke or his monumental exit to the franchise. He went from "I'm a Jedi like my father before me" to "Go away" and "the Jedi order must end." If Luke knew Snoke corrupted Ben so much, why blame himself for the failure? That's on Ben. Not Luke.

I'm still shaking my head at all the plot points. It goes from Point A to Point Y? Why does Rey think she can turn Kylo so easily after she witnessed Kylo murder his father? It wasn't like it happened years ago for him to change. Just one touch of hands and now she ditches Luke with little training, fixes her hairstyle, and goes to Kylo with no help.

So Luke was physically on Ahch-To the entire time of this trilogy. He "ahch-to" his way to death at the end. Someone who would yearn for adventure decides to be a hermit and a deadbeat Jedi master for a failure that wasn't his fault. If Rey bested Kylo in combat as a Force newbie, why couldn't Luke see her potential as a student?

Kylo Ren is such an awful character. I think Vader was written so well for a movie villain/hero at the end, it became hard to follow up. Vader is arguably the greatest movie villain of all-time. Not Hannibal Lecter. And one of the most beloved. Every villain in SW since falls into the same types we see in superhero and 007 films. Forgettable.

Thing is, Rey and Kylo don't need to be bad*** for me to root for them. Kylo doesn't need to be like Vader. I like characters like Cersei and Littlefinger. Rey doesn't need to be another ANH Leia or merchandise seller. It's not a gender thing. Even if beyond redemption, I would still like them like I did for Littlefinger.

It's just neither one are likeable! They're boring. Not much background story for Cinderella / Mary Sue and the other one's motives and logic are all messed up. Why would Luke fear someone who lost to a girl in combat? And that girl happens to be on your side willing to learn more from you.

If Game Of Thrones didn't have minor characters like Bronn and Tormund, I probably would have tuned out already from that show. I can't stand Jon and Dany. That's how I feel with Kylo and Rey right now. I was perfectly cool with Kylo, Rey, Finn, and Poe after TFA. After TLJ, they're worse with the most idiotic intentions and personalities.

For me, it's not a race problem and it's not a gender problem. It's an idiotic writer's problem.

 

[AustinIllini]

Saw it again. No doubt in the past 3 hours Kingslayer has posted a whole bunch of nonsense, but the reality is, the critics are right and this is a very good movie and almost all of his complaints are, at worst, wrong and (at best) minor.

I could counter all of them, but I have a job.

And anyone who calls Rian Johnson an idiot writer is, in fact, clueless. Case and point: Looper (2012) was one of the best films that year. An absolute masterpiece.
[doublepost=1513830930][/doublepost]

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42424445



It's not an ethnicity or gender problem for me. These new SW characters suck. My favorite in DCEU is Wonder Woman. I liked Hela in Ragnarok although I felt Cate was underutilized. I plan to see Black Panther in Feb. Glenn was one of my favorites in The Walking Dead. I'm a huge Michelle Yeoh fan and was happy to see her in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2.

I'm cool with Rose Tico as Kelly Marie Tran seems like a great girl in real life and happy for her overnight success. Her character isn't necessary and she isn't the type to sell merchandise. Like nobody is going run out to get her action figure.

I wanted to know more about Chirrut and Baze in Rogue One and don't care if they were an item or not. I am a Neil Patrick Harris fan to not care about stuff like that. I watch HK films since I was a kid, so male or female Asian characters don't bother me.

I still can't get over how bad the writing is in The Last Jedi. I thought the film was going to be about Luke or his monumental exit to the franchise. He went from "I'm a Jedi like my father before me" to "Go away" and "the Jedi order must end." If Luke knew Snoke corrupted Ben so much, why blame himself for the failure? That's on Ben. Not Luke.

I'm still shaking my head at all the plot points. It goes from Point A to Point Y? Why does Rey think she can turn Kylo so easily after she witnessed Kylo murder his father? It wasn't like it happened years ago for him to change. Just one touch of hands and now she ditches Luke with little training, fixes her hairstyle, and goes to Kylo with no help.

So Luke was physically on Ahch-To the entire time of this trilogy. He "ahch-to" his way to death at the end. Someone who would yearn for adventure decides to be a hermit and a deadbeat Jedi master for a failure that wasn't his fault. If Rey bested Kylo in combat as a Force newbie, why couldn't Luke see her potential as a student?

Kylo Ren is such an awful character. I think Vader was written so well for a movie villain/hero at the end, it became hard to follow up. Vader is arguably the greatest movie villain of all-time. Not Hannibal Lecter. And one of the most beloved. Every villain in SW since falls into the same types we see in superhero and 007 films. Forgettable.

Thing is, Rey and Kylo don't need to be bad*** for me to root for them. Kylo doesn't need to be like Vader. I like characters like Cersei and Littlefinger. Rey doesn't need to be another ANH Leia or merchandise seller. It's not a gender thing. Even if beyond redemption, I would still like them like I did for Littlefinger.

It's just neither one are likeable! They're boring. Not much background story for Cinderella / Mary Sue and the other one's motives and logic are all messed up. Why would Luke fear someone who lost to a girl in combat? And that girl happens to be on your side willing to learn more from you.

If Game Of Thrones didn't have minor characters like Bronn and Tormund, I probably would have tuned out already from that show. I can't stand Jon and Dany. That's how I feel with Kylo and Rey right now. I was perfectly cool with Kylo, Rey, Finn, and Poe after TFA. After TLJ, they're worse with the most idiotic intentions and personalities.

For me, it's not a race problem and it's not a gender problem. It's an idiotic writer's problem.

Everything you just said is 100% wrong.

 

[BarracksSi]

GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS ....

What if Leia, instead of Force-Witching herself back to the ship, was Force-pulled by Luke?

Since her hand moved before anything else, and they're deeply connected like the siblings they are...

 

[KingslayerG5]

We know he's going to like it...

This is how The Last Jedi should have been -

Cut the scenes with Amilyn and Poe and Canto Bight shorter. No need to see those running creatures.

Give us a 15+ minute flashback between Luke and Ben. Show us when Ben got seduced by Snoke and when Ben slaughtered half of Luke's students.

Scenes from Crait was pointless. It's like Mad Max: Fury Road going to a location and then leaving. Leia was saying it was heavily armored. Cut that entire wannabe Hoth scene out or move it to an earlier part of the film. That's mostly nonsense as the throne room blew the film's load prematurely.

Don't give us Rian Johnson's Luke. Give us Mark Hamill's Luke. An actor who knows his character for 40+ years.

Don't answer Rey's parentage at all. Leave it for the next episode.

The money shot was the throne room scene. That was their jackpot. Got the most claps. Ask most viewers, and that's probably the best part of the entire movie. But it happened 30 minutes too early. Move it at the very end. Save the best for last.

The problem with TLJ was there was basically 30+ more minutes of content that was pointless and unnecessary. After Holdo sacrificed herself, the predictable conclusion between Finn vs Phasma happened. You can see this female Boba Fett death scene from a mile away. Gwendoline has armor but Boyega is wearing plot armor.

After that, the only memorable scene happened with holo-Luke. And that was a cheap trick. First time, it seems great. Looks promising with a potential duel. Second time, you feel cheated that it isn't really him. It's like watching a scary movie the second time and knowing what happens. Suspense is gone.

Other than Hamill amd Fisher in a scene together one last time and stalling Kylo, the movie figuratively ran out of gas at the end. What made the endings to Rogue One and TESB work was the best stuff happened at the end. Empire had the famous cliffhanger line. There was only less than 5 minutes of scenes after that. Rogue One ended in a scramble.

This is the ending scene I would've preferred to see -

Throne room scene with Luke, Rey, Kylo, and Snoke.

Battle ensues between masters and students.

Snoke does get killed.

Kylo is under some rubble as Rey beats him again. Or even let Luke beat up Kylo for killing Han.

Luke is severely hurt but Rey helps him escape. We see Luke in an incubator like Leia. We don't know if he is going to live or die.

The final shot is Kylo's fist breaking through the rubble like the flashback of Luke after Ben forced the roof to collapse.

*roll credits*

This movie should've left us hanging being the middle part to salivate for the next one. Keep us guessing if Luke lives in the next episode or not. Rian should have kept Rey's parentage a mystery until Ep 9 and not give us a lame answer.

Revenge Of The Sith gave us a terrific finale with Obi-Wan vs Anakin and Sidious vs Yoda. The Last Jedi gave us a cheap death to a supposedly powerful villian and cheap mirage exit to a legendary hero.

Star Wars and Apple fans are passionate and loyal. Two brands (Disney & Apple) are being hated this week. A cheater and a liar. Character assassination and planned obsolescence is all real. It's just an iPhone battery and a movie, folks. Relax.

I see so many petty comments about SW female characters and how it isn't as "white guy" as before. I never realized there are many Star Wars fans who are racist and sexist. The Last Jedi's problems are not about that. Even the white characters whether male or female are written poorly.

This is real Luke to us. An optimist. A redeemer. Hope. A Jedi like his father before him. And this was who Vader really was. There was still good in him...

 

[kingalexthe1st]

This is how The Last Jedi should have been ....

Good god, man, give us the Cliff Notes version. I don't have time to read your daily tomes...

 

[whooleytoo]

What I want to know is why there was no Death Star being built
Seriously, what kind of puny empire are they building?

Hah. Well, I'm glad they didn't just copy 'n' paste a new Death Star / Starkiller / "Galaxy Gobbler" in there.

But the First Order does seem pretty weak. The leader is a very conflicted guy, with serious issues; and was beaten by a 'rookie' with no training in her first encounter. The other head-figure is someone who got pranked by a phone-call.

The bad guys haven't been this weak since the 'roger roger' droids.

 

[TheDoubler55]

Good god, man, give us the Cliff Notes version. I don't have time to read your daily tomes...

hahahahahahhah

 

[Tsuchiya]

I finally saw it this morning and thoroughly enjoyed myself.

Luke was kind of a wiener but I’m not so invested in him as a character to feel cheated with his final arc.

I’d have liked to have seen more in terms of the Kylo/Ben and Luke flashbacks, and perhaps a bit more of Snoke. He was such a mysterious character prior to this, and apart from knowing he was powerful, we don’t see any depth to him.

 

[KingslayerG5]

Luke Skywalker who faced Darth Vader and The Emperor with no fear is now scared to confront his own nephew next to a girl who bested Kylo as a first-time lightsaber fighter.

At least Han Solo helped in The Force Awakens. The same scoundrel who in ANH said he wasn't doing it for a revolution or the Princess, he was only doing it for the money.

This is the Luke Skywalker we knew...

A battle with Luke next to Rey against Snoke and Kylo would have been awesome in the throne room. Because Obi-Wan went Force ghost and Yoda was in his final years to ever had a chance to fight alongside Luke. Master and student like Qui Gon and Obi-Wan against Maul.

"The last Jedi" should have helped a student that could be more powerful than Kylo and then confront his nephew for the murder of Han while helping his sister. Almost like Mark Hamiil wanted to go full dark side on Rian and split him in half!

 

[AustinIllini]

Kingslayer’s guide to Star Wars Episode IX

To help JJ plan the next film here's the perfect formula:

“Make it the same as the original trilogy, but also make it different. But dont change anything. Make sure to include surprises, but not surprises we dont want. In fact avoid surprises. But dont rehash anything. Also dont try something new, because we wont like it. Make sure to do justice to the cast, but we wont say how. Just make sure to get it right. I want it to be exactly the way I want it. Just a bit different. And also the same. Make sure we know the back story to all the characters even the incidental ones (because we are all speculating and you better be reading my mind) but leave it mysterious at the same time. No CGI! Keep it practical. But make sure to expand the universe like the prequels did, you know, using CGI. Also dont do anything the prequels did. Or Force Awakens. Or the original trilogy. But make it like those films too. Give it some humour too. But dont make it too funny. Show us some new force powers! But not ones we havent seen before because new powers are ridiculous. Dont kill anyone! it betrays my childhood. But also make it unpredictable by killing off a few characters.

Clear? Good...”

Credit to Timothy Snowball on Facebook

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Yes, it's just a movie and all (and yes, I get how we need to make some effort at suspension of disbelief) but 2 things kind of disrupted it for me...

1. The slow chase at the end gave us the drama and sacrifice. And maybe I could buy that this rebel ship could slightly outrun the First Order ship to stay out of range. But then I found myself thinking, could the accompanying Star Destroyers have a 1 second hyper speed jump ahead, turn back and basically wait for the rebel ship to come into their range. If the FO can track ships through hyperspace now, have a few of them hop ahead, turn back and basically be the border in a snare. The movie seemed to imply that if the fuel source was not limited, this slow chase could have gone on forever... and that the rebels could have survived forever by simply staying on the slightly faster ship.

2. Up until this movie, Force Ghosts appeared to be able to only offer communication/counsel. In this movie, we see that they can summon great power (lightning) and destroy something (the tree). So if force ghosts can continue to actually do tangible damage in the real world, why doesn't Yoda, Obi Wan, Anakin, Qui-Gon Jinn or now (presumably) Luke as ghosts just take out all of the FO ships by ghosting into their cores and summoning up some Force Lightning... or pulling a few key plugs... etc.

To me this is like the Resolution to Superman 2 where Superman summons up the power to actually go back in time to save Lois Lane. After that, conceptually, nobody could ever be harmed by the bad guys again and nothing could ever jeopardize Metropolis/Earth again as Superman could use the same trick to turn back the clock and prevent the bad event before it happens.

So far we've seen only light side Force Ghosts, including one "saved" at almost the very end of his life so he could be one too. We've seen no mirror dark side Force Ghosts. Is only the light-side ghosts possible? If not, where are the dark side ghosts using their powers to destroy real world rebel ships, etc too? If Ghost Yoda can summon lightning and do damage, can't Ghost Palpatine or any of the others do the same and destroy the last rebel ship? Or the Falcon with the last of the resistance at the end?

And then there are the little things like they put out the call to outer rim allies to come help and nobody came, so apparently the entirety of the rebel alliance is a group of people loaded aboard the Millennium Falcon. Now, it's never completely clear how big the Falcon is, but we've seen it next to 1-man craft and it doesn't look like it is any kind of Noah's Ark. So best guesses here: how many rebels are there now to continue the fight against the great breadth & depth of the FO? And with the gun of the Falcon damaged in the flee flight through the cave(?) does the last remaining rebel ship have even one gun on it to defend itself? This may be the point where Battlestar Galactica and maybe Star Fleet needs to show up? Or perhaps Mickey Mouse in the Wizard costume waving the magic wand? Or the Avengers?

We as audience see what appears to be the death of Luke... but no one in the story sees it. So everyone on both sides should continue to perceive that Luke is alive. Even if some go to the planet, there's apparently no body to find- is Luke dead or did he leave or was kidnapped? Star Wars 9: The Search For Luke? With such a tiny resistance force left, unless maybe Rey can sense that Luke is gone (or he appears as a Force Ghost to say as much), the first thing I'm doing if I'm her is going right back out there to get his help. Unless Kylo can sense the same, he only knows he's been tricked and should be seeking to find the actual Luke to kill the master.

Apparently some new wise, older rebel character is going to have to be introduced in IX to lead this group as the prior generation of potential Generals are all gone now (I'm not really seeing Chewbacca, C3P0 or R2D2 as generals, are you?). I'm not thinking the Poe character is cut out to be such a (strategic) leader yet. Lando doesn't seem very likely? Aren't all potential candidates for this seemingly crucial role on board the Falcon now?

And then there's the whole "what happened?" question as in: what happened after Return of the Jedi and before The Force Awakens that had all of the Empire's destroyers, storm trooper forces, etc shift from being owned/controlled by the victorious rebels to being owned/controlled by the FO... in only about 30 years or so. The Rebels won, peace was restored to the galaxy, ships not destroyed in the war would probably be taken over by the new republic that would probably have risen from that victory. Yet, in only about 30 years, the bad guys again have control of all those powerful ships and troops while the rebels are back to being in relatively rag-tag, obviously-inferior ships mostly fleeing ships that they should have controlled not very many years before.

In this saga, star destroyers and storm trooper (clone troops) were under the control of the good guys, got shifted to being under the control of the Empire, got won back into the control of the Resistance and now are back to being under the control of the FO- all in about 50-100 years. Apparently troops and defense leadership in a galaxy far, far away switch sides with great fluidity??? I'm thinking winning the victory in IX might be as simple as putting up a big sign across the heavens that says "time to switch sides again."

Lastly, after the very positive reaction to the Darth Vader reshoot scene- the slaughter scene- where he's basically showing his full power at the very end of Rouge One, I fully expected some kind of mirror scene of that for Luke, demonstrating the immense power of the light side of the force on the same scale. In my head, even one scene of Luke OFF the island where he's showing that the light side is just as powerful would have been very well received.

I think that ending sequence would have been better if he was actually there (and it could have basically been this mirror (of demonstrating power) largely as is), though, if he was actually there, it seems it would have forced the issue that student or teacher would have had to kill the other... and student couldn't die and still have someone in some form of "big bad" for episode IX (can anyone imagine General Hux could be that if the student was killed?).

Overall, I thought it was a good episode- well done, attractive, maybe forcing some stuff in to try to be more "inclusive," and I thought the story was interesting. I can grasp how some feel that this could be the last movie. For example, one good FO shot at the Falcon and everyone who is still a member of the resistance is dead. However, saga writers setting up the "to be continued" with what seems like impossible odds for happy ending resolution is not exactly a novel thing. Apparently the handful of people in what is left of the resistance with no (wise old) leadership, no warships, no fully trained Jedi, no help from the outer rim, etc on a beaten & broken-down old "bucket of bolts" with a broken gun is going to be able to rise up in IX and defeat the FO anyway. Better rally those Force Ghosts into action and write that "our turn" sign across the sky.

 

[Huntn]

Yes, it's just a movie and all (and yes, I get how we need to make some effort at suspension of disbelief) but 2 things kind of disrupted it for me...

1. The slow chase at the end gave us the drama and sacrifice. And maybe I could buy that this rebel ship could slightly outrun the First Order ship to stay out of range. But then I found myself thinking, could the accompanying Star Destroyers have a 1 second hyper speed jump ahead, turn back and basically wait for the rebel ship to come into their range. If the FO can track ships through hyperspace now, have a few of them hop ahead, turn back and basically be the border in a snare. The movie seemed to imply that if the fuel source was not limited, this slow chase could have gone on forever... and that the rebels could have survived forever by simply staying on the slightly faster ship.

2. Up until this movie, Force Ghosts appeared to be able to only offer communication/counsel. In this movie, we see that they can summon great power (lightning) and destroy something (the tree). So if force ghosts can continue to actually do tangible damage in the real world, why doesn't Yoda, Obi Wan, Anakin, Qui-Gon Jinn or now (presumably) Luke as ghosts just take out all of the FO ships by ghosting into their cores and summoning up some Force Lightning... or pulling a few key plugs... etc.

To me this is like the Resolution to Superman 2 where Superman summons up the power to actually go back in time to save Lois Lane. After that, conceptually, nobody could ever be harmed by the bad guys again and nothing could ever jeopardize Metropolis/Earth again as Superman could use the same trick to turn back the clock and prevent the bad event before it happens.

So far we've seen only light side Force Ghosts, including one "saved" at almost the very end of his life so he could be one too. We've seen no mirror dark side Force Ghosts. Is only the light-side ghosts possible? If not, where are the dark side ghosts using their powers to destroy real world rebel ships, etc too? If Ghost Yoda can summon lightning and do damage, can't Ghost Papatine or any of the others do the same and destroy the last rebel ship? Or the Falcon with the last of the resistance at the end?

And then there are the little things like they put out the call to outer rim allies to come help and nobody came, so apparently the entirety of the rebel alliance is a group of people loaded aboard the Millennium Falcon. Now, it's never completely clear how big the Falcon is, but we've seen it next to 1-man craft and it doesn't look like it is any kind of Noah's Ark. So best guesses here: how many rebels are there now to continue the fight against the great breadth & depth of the FO? And with the gun of the Falcon damaged in the flee flight through the cave(?) does the last remaining rebel ship have even one gun on it to defend itself? This may be the point where Battlestar Galactica and maybe Star Fleet needs to show up? Or perhaps Mickey Mouse in the Wizard costume waving the magic wand? Or the Avengers?

We as audience see what appears to be the death of Luke... but no one in the story sees it. So everyone on both sides should continue to perceive that Luke is alive. Even if some go to the planet, there's apparently no body to find- is Luke dead or did he leave or was kidnapped? Star Wars 9: The Search For Luke?

Apparently some new wise, older rebel character is going to have to be introduced in IX to lead this group as the prior generation of potential Generals are all gone now (I'm not really seeing Chewbacca, C3P0 or R2D2 as generals, are you?). I'm not thinking the Poe character is cut out to be such a (strategic) leader yet. Lando doesn't seem very likely? Aren't all potential candidates for this seemingly crucial role on board the Falcon now?

And then there's the whole "what happened?" question as in: what happened after Return of the Jedi and before The Force Awakens that had all of the Empire's destroyers, storm trooper forces, etc shift from being owned/controlled by the victorious rebels to being owned/controlled by the FO... in only about 30 years or so. The Rebels won, peace was restored to the galaxy, ships not destroyed in the war would probably be taken over by the new republic that would probably have risen from that victory. Yet, in only about 30 years, the bad guys again have control of all those powerful ships and troops while the rebels are back to being in relatively rag-tag, obviously-inferior ships mostly fleeing ships that they should have controlled not very many years before.

In this saga, star destroyers and storm trooper (clone troops) were under the control of the good guys, got shifted to being under the control of the Empire, got won back into the control of the Resistance and now are back to being under the control of the FO- all in about 50-100 years. Apparently troops and defense leadership in a galaxy far, far away switch sides with great fluidity??? I'm thinking winning the victory in IX might be as simple as putting up a big sign across the heavens that says "time to switch sides again."

Lastly, after the very positive reaction to the Darth Vader reshoot scene- the slaughter scene- where he's basically showing his full power at the very end of Rouge One, I fully expected some kind of mirror scene of that for Luke, demonstrating the immense power of the light side of the force on the same scale. In my head, even one scene of Luke OFF the island where he's showing that the light side is just as powerful would have been very well received.

I think that ending sequence would have been better if he was actually there (and it could have basically been this mirror (of demonstrating power) largely as is), though, if he was actually there, it seems it would have forced the issue that student or teacher would have had to kill the other... and student couldn't die and still have someone in some form of "big bad" for episode IX (can anyone imagine General Hux could be that if the student was killed?).

Overall, I thought it was a good episode- well done, attractive, maybe forcing some stuff in to try to be more "inclusive," and I thought the story was interesting. I can grasp how some feel that this could be the last movie. For example, one good FO shot at the Falcon and everyone who is still a member of the resistance is dead. However, saga writers setting up the "to be continued" with what seems like impossible odds for happy ending resolution is not exactly a novel thing. Apparently the handful of people in what is left of the resistance with no (wise old) leadership, no warships, no fully trained Jedi, no help from the outer rim, etc is going to be able to rise up in IX and defeat the FO anyway. Better rally those Force Ghosts into action and write that "our turn" sign across the sky.

Outstanding write up!

This was the new version of The Empire Strikes Back in spades. From a narrative standpoint of the movie, the only thing I disagree with about your post is that it is a good episode, although there was a couple of sequences of good action.

Besides turning the Star Wars cannon into a farce (1) (episode 7), and Oh, we must find Luke to turn things around!, then hitting us in the gut with Luke as a broken Jedi who ran away after a Jedi student bitch slapped him (2) and then beating the **** out of the Establishment Rebellion (3) turning them into a ragtag group on the run for their lives, yet somehow children around the galaxy are expected to rally them for the next episode? How much mediocrity are we expected to swallow to keep our fantasies alive?

1- zero originality, blatant repetition.
2- Is that the deal now, students and even completely untrained force sensitive people can kick the crap out of Jedi Masters? Are the Jedis terrible judges of character? Secondly, I could accept Luke being a broken Jedi, if the rest of the narrative was cohesive.
3- Remember, the good guys won? It’s a huge stretch to jump ahead to a point where they have been turned back into a ragtag group of struggling rebels who can all fit on the Millenium Falcon.

Excellent point about the long slow chase. It just seemed connived to me

I identify the problem with the new trilogy (if that is what it is) as more focus on milking the cash cow, instead of some frick’n new ideas, and not paying this franchise just a little respect.

Edited: multiple typos.

 

[TheTruth101]

I like it because I knew it was going to be bad. After Rogue One I knew nothing could top that. Rogue One had real professional actors. Episode 7 and 8 are illiterate extras with no experience, they are like "Saved by the bell" extras.

About this movie in particular:
1. Ugly fat Chinese lesbian looking girl was a visual turn off.
2. Finn, rey and Kylo... bad actors, those 3 have no experience.
3. Luke milking a sea donkey... they could at least make that blue milk so everyone finally knows where it come from.
4. Adding a rocket to an X-wing... looked like a Lego rocket
5. The iron sequence... looked taken from Naked Gun with Leslie Nilsen
6. The entire casino, code breaker stuff.. Those kind of things belong to Star Trek
7. The First Order Wasting fuel chasing a ship in slow mo.... That is not Star Wars.
8. The final battle with Luke... all the At-Ats wasted!!!!! It was like getting the date of your life, having sex and no orgasm because no erection... everybody left the movie theater disappointed.
9. Oh... the ugly fat Chinese girls kissing Finn. That was clearly sexual harassment, I would have slap her.
10. The fight with Captain Phasma... was that it?

For me it was better than The Force Awakens but still a load of negligence. Still better than Episode 1, 2 and 3. NEVER better than Rogue One. Rogue One is a movie, is a classic, a must have. Episode 7 and 8 are for you to buy merchandising.

 

[AustinIllini]

I like it because I knew it was going to be bad. After Rogue One I knew nothing could top that. Rogue One had real professional actors. Episode 7 and 8 are illiterate extras with no experience, they are like "Saved by the bell" extras.

About this movie in particular:
1. Ugly fat Chinese lesbian looking girl was a visual turn off. 1) Uncalled for 2) She's not a Lesbian 3) She's really not fat
2. Finn, rey and Kylo... bad actors, those 3 have no experience. Uhh. Really? Adam Driver? Have you seen Silence?
3. Luke milking a sea donkey... they could at least make that blue milk so everyone finally knows where it come from. Meh, it wasn't great, but I got the point.
4. Adding a rocket to an X-wing... looked like a Lego rocket I mean, it's Star Wars. Everything looks like legos
5. The iron sequence... looked taken from Naked Gun with Leslie Nilsen Not really what you could call a whole "scene"
6. The entire casino, code breaker stuff.. Those kind of things belong to Star Trek No, that's a fairly Star Wars thing a la Cantina on Mos Eisley, Jabba the Hutt's place, etc.
7. The First Order Wasting fuel chasing a ship in slow mo.... That is not Star Wars. Not sure what you mean by that
8. The final battle with Luke... all the At-Ats wasted!!!!! It was like getting the date of your life, having sex and no orgasm because no erection... everybody left the movie theater disappointed. Not sure I either agree with or appreciate your second rate comparison. The scene with Luke was very well done.
9. Oh... the ugly fat Chinese girls kissing Finn. That was clearly sexual harassment, I would have slap her. Again, don't be a pig. She's by no means skinny, but she's certainly not fat, either.
10. The fight with Captain Phasma... was that it? Yup.

For me it was better than The Force Awakens but still a load of negligence. Still better than Episode 1, 2 and 3. NEVER better than Rogue One. Rogue One is a movie, is a classic, a must have. Episode 7 and 8 are for you to buy merchandising.

My comments in bold. Some of your descriptors have no business in this discussion.

This girl is by no means fat

 

[Number-Six]

Yes, it's just a movie and all (and yes, I get how we need to make some effort at suspension of disbelief) but 2 things kind of disrupted it for me...

1. The slow chase at the end gave us the drama and sacrifice. And maybe I could buy that this rebel ship could slightly outrun the First Order ship to stay out of range. But then I found myself thinking, could the accompanying Star Destroyers have a 1 second hyper speed jump ahead, turn back and basically wait for the rebel ship to come into their range. If the FO can track ships through hyperspace now, have a few of them hop ahead, turn back and basically be the border in a snare. The movie seemed to imply that if the fuel source was not limited, this slow chase could have gone on forever... and that the rebels could have survived forever by simply staying on the slightly faster ship.

2. Up until this movie, Force Ghosts appeared to be able to only offer communication/counsel. In this movie, we see that they can summon great power (lightning) and destroy something (the tree). So if force ghosts can continue to actually do tangible damage in the real world, why doesn't Yoda, Obi Wan, Anakin, Qui-Gon Jinn or now (presumably) Luke as ghosts just take out all of the FO ships by ghosting into their cores and summoning up some Force Lightning... or pulling a few key plugs... etc.

To me this is like the Resolution to Superman 2 where Superman summons up the power to actually go back in time to save Lois Lane. After that, conceptually, nobody could ever be harmed by the bad guys again and nothing could ever jeopardize Metropolis/Earth again as Superman could use the same trick to turn back the clock and prevent the bad event before it happens.

So far we've seen only light side Force Ghosts, including one "saved" at almost the very end of his life so he could be one too. We've seen no mirror dark side Force Ghosts. Is only the light-side ghosts possible? If not, where are the dark side ghosts using their powers to destroy real world rebel ships, etc too? If Ghost Yoda can summon lightning and do damage, can't Ghost Palpatine or any of the others do the same and destroy the last rebel ship? Or the Falcon with the last of the resistance at the end?

And then there are the little things like they put out the call to outer rim allies to come help and nobody came, so apparently the entirety of the rebel alliance is a group of people loaded aboard the Millennium Falcon. Now, it's never completely clear how big the Falcon is, but we've seen it next to 1-man craft and it doesn't look like it is any kind of Noah's Ark. So best guesses here: how many rebels are there now to continue the fight against the great breadth & depth of the FO? And with the gun of the Falcon damaged in the flee flight through the cave(?) does the last remaining rebel ship have even one gun on it to defend itself? This may be the point where Battlestar Galactica and maybe Star Fleet needs to show up? Or perhaps Mickey Mouse in the Wizard costume waving the magic wand? Or the Avengers?

We as audience see what appears to be the death of Luke... but no one in the story sees it. So everyone on both sides should continue to perceive that Luke is alive. Even if some go to the planet, there's apparently no body to find- is Luke dead or did he leave or was kidnapped? Star Wars 9: The Search For Luke? With such a tiny resistance force left, unless maybe Rey can sense that Luke is gone (or he appears as a Force Ghost to say as much), the first thing I'm doing if I'm her is going right back out there to get his help. Unless Kylo can sense the same, he only knows he's been tricked and should be seeking to find the actual Luke to kill the master.

Apparently some new wise, older rebel character is going to have to be introduced in IX to lead this group as the prior generation of potential Generals are all gone now (I'm not really seeing Chewbacca, C3P0 or R2D2 as generals, are you?). I'm not thinking the Poe character is cut out to be such a (strategic) leader yet. Lando doesn't seem very likely? Aren't all potential candidates for this seemingly crucial role on board the Falcon now?

And then there's the whole "what happened?" question as in: what happened after Return of the Jedi and before The Force Awakens that had all of the Empire's destroyers, storm trooper forces, etc shift from being owned/controlled by the victorious rebels to being owned/controlled by the FO... in only about 30 years or so. The Rebels won, peace was restored to the galaxy, ships not destroyed in the war would probably be taken over by the new republic that would probably have risen from that victory. Yet, in only about 30 years, the bad guys again have control of all those powerful ships and troops while the rebels are back to being in relatively rag-tag, obviously-inferior ships mostly fleeing ships that they should have controlled not very many years before.

In this saga, star destroyers and storm trooper (clone troops) were under the control of the good guys, got shifted to being under the control of the Empire, got won back into the control of the Resistance and now are back to being under the control of the FO- all in about 50-100 years. Apparently troops and defense leadership in a galaxy far, far away switch sides with great fluidity??? I'm thinking winning the victory in IX might be as simple as putting up a big sign across the heavens that says "time to switch sides again."

Lastly, after the very positive reaction to the Darth Vader reshoot scene- the slaughter scene- where he's basically showing his full power at the very end of Rouge One, I fully expected some kind of mirror scene of that for Luke, demonstrating the immense power of the light side of the force on the same scale. In my head, even one scene of Luke OFF the island where he's showing that the light side is just as powerful would have been very well received.

I think that ending sequence would have been better if he was actually there (and it could have basically been this mirror (of demonstrating power) largely as is), though, if he was actually there, it seems it would have forced the issue that student or teacher would have had to kill the other... and student couldn't die and still have someone in some form of "big bad" for episode IX (can anyone imagine General Hux could be that if the student was killed?).

Overall, I thought it was a good episode- well done, attractive, maybe forcing some stuff in to try to be more "inclusive," and I thought the story was interesting. I can grasp how some feel that this could be the last movie. For example, one good FO shot at the Falcon and everyone who is still a member of the resistance is dead. However, saga writers setting up the "to be continued" with what seems like impossible odds for happy ending resolution is not exactly a novel thing. Apparently the handful of people in what is left of the resistance with no (wise old) leadership, no warships, no fully trained Jedi, no help from the outer rim, etc on a beaten & broken-down old "bucket of bolts" with a broken gun is going to be able to rise up in IX and defeat the FO anyway. Better rally those Force Ghosts into action and write that "our turn" sign across the sky.

About Force Ghosts, it's hinted in the prequel trilogy that it's Qui Gon who shows Yoda and Obi-Wan how to do it, so it's possible that force ghosts aren't a common thing and that Yoda is possibly learning to do new things as a ghost as time goes on.

About no one knowing about the death of Luke, I bet Leia knows. If she could know Han was killed, I bet she knew about Luke.

About the ending scene, as much as I would have liked to see Luke in an actual fight, I think that the fact that he could send his projection from another planet is pretty damned impressive.
[doublepost=1513959741][/doublepost]

Outstanding write up!

This was the new version of The Empire Strikes Back in spades. From a narrative standpoint of the movie, the only thing I disagree with about your post is that it is a good episode, although there was a couple of sequences of good action.

Besides turning the Star Wars cannon into a farce (1) (episode 7), and Oh, we must find Luke to turn things around!, then hitting us in the gut with Luke as a broken Jedi who ran away after a Jedi student bitch slapped him (2) and then beating the **** out of the Establishment Rebellion (3) turning them into a ragtag group on the run for their lives, yet somehow children around the galaxy are expected to rally them for the next episode? How much mediocrity are we expected to swallow to keep our fantasies alive?

1- zero originality, blatant repetition.
2- Is that the deal now, students and even completely untrained force sensitive people can kick the crap out of Jedi Masters? Are the Jedis terrible judges of character? Secondly, I could accept Luke being a broken Jedi, if the rest of the narrative was cohesive.
3- Remember, the good guys won? It’s a huge stretch to jump ahead to a point where they have been turned back into a ragtag group of struggling rebels who can all fit on the Millenium Falcon.

Excellent point about the long slow chase. It just seemed connived to me

I identify the problem with the new trilogy (if that is what it is) as more focus on milking the cash cow, instead of some frick’n new ideas, and not paying this franchise just a little respect.

Edited: multiple typos.

I disagree, I identify the problem as the fans being unable to be pleased about anything. It's like they have this conception of what Star Wars should be, then throw temper tantrums when something different is presented. Their minds are completely closed to new/different ideas.

They'll complain when ideas are re-used, and complain again when new ideas are brought up.

 

[Huntn]

About Force Ghosts, it's hinted in the prequel trilogy that it's Qui Gon who shows Yoda and Obi-Wan how to do it, so it's possible that force ghosts aren't a common thing and that Yoda is possibly learning to do new things as a ghost as time goes on.

About no one knowing about the death of Luke, I bet Leia knows. If she could know Han was killed, I bet she knew about Luke.

About the ending scene, as much as I would have liked to see Luke in an actual fight, I think that the fact that he could send his projection from another planet is pretty damned impressive.
[doublepost=1513959741][/doublepost]

I disagree, I identify the problem as the fans being unable to be pleased about anything. It's like they have this conception of what Star Wars should be, then throw temper tantrums when something different is presented. Their minds are completely closed to new/different ideas.

They'll complain when ideas are re-used, and complain again when new ideas are brought up.

Not a fight, but they are blatantly reusing, when instead they should be forging ahead into new territory. I won't speak for all ST fans, but give me something original instead of recycling what worked before. I already have already seen episodes 1-6.

 

[Apple fanboy]

My comments in bold. Some of your descriptors have no business in this discussion.

This girl is by no means fat

Agree. She's not even chubby. And if she was, would it matter? Not everyone in the Universe is thin (or straight for that matter!)

[doublepost=1513963670][/doublepost]

Not a fight, but they are blatantly reusing, when instead they should be forging ahead into new territory. I won't speak for all ST fans, but give me something original instead of recycling what worked before. I already have already seen episodes 1-6.

It's to like the OT. It's not like the OT enough.

They can't win.

 

[KingslayerG5]

Most of Tyrone's moments don't bother me anymore after a couple of viewings. Even dropping bombs in outer space doesn't bother me. It's Rian's character assassination on Luke Skywalker. Rian made every character seem worse in the film. The logic and their motives doesn't make any sense. The best scene with the throne room happened 30 minutes too early. Luke should have been there to help.

I was watching a little bit of The Force Awakens the other night and believe Rey, Kylo, Finn, and Poe were actually better in it. Finn was a little more funnier and not corny. Poe was barely there. Kylo was menacing up until he unmasked himself and killed Han. Rey was fine. Oh yeah, and Han didn't refuse to help. In ANH, it looked like he only cared about himself and money. Luke was gung-ho about it. Here, Luke's guilt discouraged him. After TLJ, each of those new main characters just got worse to me.

I don't care if Al Pacino and Robert De Niro portrayed Finn and Poe, if that's their character and both still acted moronic and immature, I still wouldn't care about both. It's not believing SW should be filled with white characters. Already bad enough MCU white washed The Mandarin and The Ancient One. Finn and Poe are just not interesting characters to me period. And I'm a person who believes Oscar Isaac who did Ex Machina and X-Men: Apocalypse will have a great future in acting.

Luke didn't fear trying to blow up the Death Star and confront Darth Vader and The Emperor. Against his nephew who lost to a girl, now he is scared? Rey is powerful enough and just needs training. Your buddy died. Your sister needs your help. Yeah, this is not going to go the way we think.

Backlash is real.


Last Jedi' Grosses Are Collapsing With The Worst Daily Holds Of All 9 Star Wars Movies

I watched some ANH last night. I think I'm underrating how much I loved ROTS. It has flaws and could be technically worse than ANH and ROTJ, but I'm starting to like it more and more because of the tribute video below for Anakin / Vader. My current ranking of the nine live-action SW films which changes all the time and no Ewok films or animated Clone Wars included.

Favorites
V - The Empire Strikes Back
III - Revenge Of The Sith
VI - Return Of The Jedi
IV - A New Hope
Rogue One
VII - The Force Awakens
I - The Phantom Menace
VIII - The Last Jedi
II - Attack Of The Clones

After a week, TLJ plummeted near the bottom because how stupid the characters and motivations are. AOTC started off promising until we got to the conveyor belt and the coliseum scene with the giant insects. There was like 30+ minutes of awful action scenes with outdated CGI that reminded me of the ending to Moonraker.

The Phantom Menace is better than The Last Jedi. It was a kid's movie and some of the stuff in it was pretty bad. But Qui-Gon Jinn was a standout, Jar Jar didn't bother me like it did to others, didn't mind the long pod race because it was fun, and the lightsaber duels was way better. I liked Darth Maul even if he barely was in it way more than I do for Snoke and Kylo.

I would have been cool if Rey went totally out of character, got brainwashed by Snoke, and went dark. But she continues on as the Mary Sue with the Cinderella / Annie story that gets a lightsaber and Jedi power instead of a glass slipper. Yeah, just leave Luke there and face Kylo and Snoke on your own. While Luke just chills out and does nothing. Why the hell is Luke more afraid than Rey?

The only completely "out of character" / 180 degree turn I didn't mind seeing in TLJ was Rey joining the dark side. Heck, Luke going dark would have been cool. Way better than Luke being a nephew-fearing, chicken**** Jedi in this film.. A New Helpless.

You appreciate the Prequels more especially Revenge Of The Sith with a video like this...

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

About Force Ghosts, it's hinted in the prequel trilogy that it's Qui Gon who shows Yoda and Obi-Wan how to do it, so it's possible that force ghosts aren't a common thing and that Yoda is possibly learning to do new things as a ghost as time goes on.

OK, then say only Yoda has learned the power of destruction in the real world. Yoda can now be the invulnerable hero for episode IX. Just appear within each ship of the FO and unplug key plugs or shoot some lightning into the fuel source, etc. Very quickly the entire FO is ship-less and (staff) decimated... leaving maybe the 50 people left as resistance to throw rocks at the 50 people that might be left of the FO... and Kylo & Rey locked in a tug of war that neither can win.

Once again, Ghost Yoda appears: Resistance rocks all hit their targets; FO rocks all miss and he tickles Kylo or fires up some force lightning inside his heart and Rey wins. Movie over. 50 resistance fighters and one force ghost has taken down the entire FO with zero additional casualties. Thanks invulnerable, untouchable Ghost Yoda. Ghost Yoda is now Superman without Kryptonite or Magic or any other vulnerabilities. Episode IX can be won in about 5 minutes.

About no one knowing about the death of Luke, I bet Leia knows. If she could know Han was killed, I bet she knew about Luke.

That seems plausible. But she didn't acknowledge projection Luke in the cave as projection Luke. Maybe a sensitivity to death could be greater to a sensitivity to a mental projection? Note too that Leia knowing about Han's death is implied but maybe only confirmed without words when she sees the faces of those who returned to her on the Falcon? Even Obi Wan didn't know exactly what had happened when a whole planet was blown up in episode 4- just "a great disturbance, as if millions of people had cried out." or something like that. He didn't even sense what is probably at least thousands on the Death Star until they were so close it was possible to get a tractor beam on them.

About the ending scene, as much as I would have liked to see Luke in an actual fight, I think that the fact that he could send his projection from another planet is pretty damned impressive.

I agree... BUT, Luke doesn't even get in one lick. It's all defensive moves to not give away that he's not actually there. Even the lightsaber blades(s) didn't touch once- just ducking and stalling. Comparing the power to project his image from far away vs. Darth Vader's beatdown at the end of Rouge One, I basically hand the win to Vader. The power of the dark side illustrated by tangible, unstoppable destruction. The power of the light side illustrated by a projection good enough to fool both force sensitive Leia and (presumably) super-force-sensitive Kylo. Impressive? Yes.

I still would like to have seen Luke in at least one good fight. We always have the fight with an aged, fading Vader in VI who... apparently... was supposed to lose and be replaced by younger Luke at the Emperor's side, much as an aged, fading Dooku was replaced by younger Anakin-Vader (even the Emperor's orders (to execute) was almost the same- Luke just did something different than Anakin at that moment).

We don't even know that the Emperor was not basically helping Luke defeat Vader or if Vader was under orders to somewhat throw that fight to woo Luke to the dark side. Presumably not... but think about it. The entire secret plot of VI appeared to be about turning Luke, not necessarily a final defeat of the rebellion (yet).

From my perspective, it's like this: for a very, very long time, fans longed to see Vader at full power in a Star Wars 3.5. Rouge One gave us a quick scratch at that particular itch. Wow! Vader was amazing. As soon as I saw that scene, I assumed Luke would get a similar chance to show his mastery of the light side... maybe that wouldn't be slicing a large number of Storm Troopers in two but in some other way. The long distance projection didn't quite do that for me personally. I feel this movie should probably have been "The Resistance Strikes Back" somewhat mirroring the outcome of V and setting up the next movie as the big showdown: Snoke vs. Luke AND Kylo vs. Rey, or perhaps Luke makes some noble sacrifice at the end of this one leaving Rey to take on both of them in IX?

As is, Luke retired... and really never got back in the game... except to buy a little bit of time as a temporary distraction. I'd prefer to have seen him kick somebody's *ss... one more time.

Had Luke been there to fight and kill Snoke, wouldn't that have been a more satisfying end of Snoke too? Luke kills Snoke. Kylo somehow gets away. Luke & Rey whoop up on multitudes like Jedi do. Movie concludes with a tentative (more) happy ending with the Resistance having won a few unlikely victories... but still facing a final, bigger showdown in IX.

 

[bopajuice]

Watched it last night with my wife. We went to one of those theaters that had the recliner chairs. Reserved seats, very comfortable. Lots of space.

To all you Star Wars Connoisseurs, I highly recommend you go to a theater with luxury seating, it should help prevent your panties from getting in a bunch.

And if you are one of those who get's really upset if the plot line does not go your way, go to one of the luxury theaters that has a bar in it...

 

[TheTruth101]

My comments in bold. Some of your descriptors have no business in this discussion.

This girl is by no means fat

What I liked about her character was how committed she was, it gives you a good taste on how they are involved and ready to sacrifice. PERIOD! Now, the casting was the worst! Even Mark Hamill himself is complaining about his character. In an interview he even referenced Transformers giving an idea of the level of quality he was experiencing when he was running the movie.

People complain about The return of the jedi being childish because of the Ewoks but we are getting the same treatment since then. Do not under estimate your audience. Look a Rogue One, first movie people said: finally a real star wars movie! Why? a good script and good actors, no extras transformed into actors.

When you see a New Hope, the entire first trilogy, you get hooked at any scene. When Leia, Luke and Han are in the trashcan you are there with them.

In this movie you see reference from other movies, when Kylo punched the General, is the same thing when Hulk punched Thor in the Avengers. When Kylo try to kill Luke, Luke moves dodging the light saber just like like Neo in The Matrix.

Star Wars taste like a Mc Donald franchise to sell toys, no script. Even the Director had no experience! I mean, as a Project Manager myself, a organization can handle certain amount of toxicity. The ONLY people who did a great job was the CGI and photography. Script was bad, actors were shallow, direction was lame, story line made no sense.

But well, they already made their money by deceiving people, cost are covered.

Now... the big problem... the final battle.... that is where everything went to hell.

I would have finished the movie like this....

Imagine Kylo Ren get framed by Luke as he did... now the first order general wakes up, see Kylo standing there and order to open fire! A COUP!!!!! Now Kylo get shot by the same empire!!!! and he run to the cave to take cover and the cave collapses behind him.

In that moment Leia stops and tell to the Rebels to move on, she will stay. Then she goes back to the cave where Kylo is and The End! the Empire is on its own, Kylo got spanked, Mom to the rescue. But we didn't get any of that because it was a mediocre script that wasted time in some space casino scene that made no sense.

 

[Number-Six]

OK, then say only Yoda has learned the power of destruction in the real world. Yoda can now be the invulnerable hero for episode IX. Just appear within each ship of the FO and unplug key plugs or shoot some lightning into the fuel source, etc. Very quickly the entire FO is ship-less and (staff) decimated... leaving maybe the 50 people left as resistance to throw rocks at the 50 people that might be left of the FO... and Kylo & Rey locked in a tug of war that neither can win.

Once again, Ghost Yoda appears: Resistance rocks all hit their targets; FO rocks all miss and he tickles Kylo or fires up some force lightning inside his heart and Rey wins. Movie over. 50 resistance fighters and one force ghost has taken down the entire FO with zero additional casualties. Thanks invulnerable, untouchable Ghost Yoda.



That seems plausible. But she didn't acknowledge projection Luke in the cave as projection Luke. Maybe a sensitivity to death could be greater to a sensitivity to a mental projection? Note too that Leia knowing about Han's death is implied but maybe only confirmed without words when she sees the faces of those who returned to her on the Falcon? Even Obi Wan didn't know exactly what had happened when a whole planet was blown up in episode 4- just "a great disturbance, as if millions of people had cried out." or something like that. He didn't even sense what is probably at least thousands on the Death Star until they were so close it was possible to get a tractor beam on them.



I agree... BUT, Luke doesn't even get in one lick. It's all defensive moves to not give away that he's not actually there. Even the lightsaber blades(s) didn't touch once- just ducking and stalling. Comparing the power to project his image from far away vs. Darth Vader's beatdown at the end of Rouge One, I basically hand the win to Vader. The power of the dark side illustrated by tangible, unstoppable destruction. The power of the light side illustrated by a projection good enough to fool both force sensitive Leia and (presumably) super-force-sensitive Kylo. Impressive? Yes.

I still would like to have seen Luke in at least one good fight. We always have the fight with an aged, fading Vader in VI who... apparently... was supposed to lose and be replaced by Luke at the Emperor's side, much as an aged, fading Dooku was replaced by Anakin-Vader. We don't even know that the Emperor was not basically helping Luke defeat Vader or if Vader was under orders to somewhat throw that fight to woo Luke to the dark side. Presumably not... but think about it.

I too loved that Vader scene in Rogue One, in my mind it single handedly redeemed the destruction of character that Lucas did with his portrayal of Anakin. But objectively, he's fighting red shirts who couldn't hope to actually do anything against him.

People moan about the fact that Kylo Ren gets beat by an inexperienced girl. But Vader, who benefited from years of Jedi AND Sith training, essentially gets beaten by a mostly inexperienced boy.

And not only that, but Vader gets beaten because the boy got angry.

 

[MacDawg]

Imagine this... the year is 1983 and Return of the Jedi just came out
You and your friends waited in line for hours to get tickets and have just finished watching it and cheering
As you get up to leave after the credits... something happens
An announcement is made and you are told the next 2 movies are ready for viewing without waiting decades
You cheer and high five everyone around and settle back into your seats

And then...
The Force Awakens starts followed by The Last Jedi

That is the disappointment I felt

I gave the Prequels a pass because they didn't really mess with my heroes
But seeing how the lives of my heroes turned out... as pathetic losers... I could have done without that
I see enough of that in real life