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3.33GHz Xeon (Server CPU) Transplant in a 2009 Quad

Tesselator said:
For me no. I think the Apple days are completely over for me. I don't think they can swallow enough pride to cut between $1,000 and $2,500 off the price of the respective MP models. So unless they do - to me, they're dead. But the various hackintosh projects are looking good.

Kinda sad. Instead of Apple getting $3K or so from me every 3 or 4 years they'll only be getting $25.oo for the OS releases. :eek:
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Yeah, I still feel this accurately portrays my mind on the issue. Nanofrog has said essentially the same thing as well - so we're in good company. ;)
 
Nice writeup. Overclocking is an art of manipulating multiplier and multiple voltages for the cpu, sb, and ram to attain a stable system. While there are no doubts the macpro design or power supply could handle this, any thoughts on how to unlock these BIOS style settings in an EFI Mac Pro world?



Tutor said:
I will leave no stone unturned to OC my 8 - core Mac Pro because I've been ignited by what the PC [and Macish or should I say Hacish] folks are doing with their Xeons and Core i7 CPUs. Here's some of those jaw droppers that I promised - they ignite me more. All three are from Cinebench 10 scores on quad processor (8 with Hyper-Threading) Hacintoshes in the making. The first is the new i7-975 OC'ed to 4.1 Ghz. The second is one of my old E5520 2.26 Ghz Xeons (previously removed from my 8 - core) OC'ed to 2.6 Ghz. The third is the new i7-975 OC'ed to 4.2 Ghz. I forgot to change the frequency in the "MHz" box in "Info" for the last two tests, but I hope you get the point, namely, that we cannot stop after merely having upgraded the CPU's in our Mac Pro's. We need to have access to the variable excess functionality in each one of those replacement chips. In fact, if we had access to that functionality in our factory chips we'd be much more happy campers. Here's a challenge to prove my last point - for those of you who have bitten the bullet and swapped out your factory CPU for a faster one not currently offered as an Apple option, compare your current Cinebench 10 scores to not only the fastest scores below, but also to the slowest - my old E5520 2.26 Ghz Xeon OC'ed to a mere 2.6 Ghz (now its a quad). Just for further comparison if your monitor is up for this - open the second image below and compare this quad to the quads and octads on Tesselator's chart by clicking on the following: http://tesselator.gpmod.com/Images/_Equipment_n_Tutorials/Cinebench10_Numbers.jpg . This puts Tesselator's comment, above, about Apple's future with regard to desktop sales in better perspective. Then remember, my old E5520 can be OC'ed much more! Comparing apples to apples, OC'ing a 3.33 Ghz i7 to 4.1 Ghz improves the Cinebench Multi CPU render by about 34% and the single processor score by about 37%, which are larger percentage increases than just comparing the clock speeds themselves (23%), i.e., the whole system runs faster, Also, note the multiprocessor speedup amounts below, which may be an effect of hyper threading and a faster QPI from raising BClock reference speed. If my 8 - core Cinebench 10 Multi CPU score of 27509 and Single CPU score of 4246 under OSX were to scale closely to these ratios, by OC'ing my 3.2 Ghz Xeons to around 4 Ghz, I foresee a Cinebench 10 Multi CPU score of around 36733 (34%) and and Single CPU score of 5817. Under Bootcamp, my Cinebench 10 stats (average of three highest scores) under Vista 64 Ultimate on my 3.2 GHz 8 core Mac Pro are:

CB 1 CPU av. = 4712.33
CB 16 (8 Physical) CPU av. = 31331.

I'm hoping for an increase in Bootcamp to about 41983 (34%) for the Cinebench Multi CPU render and a Single CPU score of 6455. So onward I must go for true CPU parity.

Accordingly, the short answer to your question is most assuredly "yes."
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Tesselator said:
Yeah, I still feel this accurately portrays my mind on the issue. Nanofrog has said essentially the same thing as well - so we're in good company. ;)
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The sweet spot seems to be the '08 models. The '06 - '07 models are already hamstrung by the EFI32 firmware, and Apple's total unwillingness to release an update to EFI64. The '09's are limited in terms of DIMM slots (applicable to some), and then there's the issues with hardware based RAID. I'm forgetting something... Oh yeah... COST. :eek: :p

It's certainly not the days of PPC vs. Intel. Now the components and design implementations are the same as any other PC. I know some might think that a hideous thing to say, but from a technical POV, it's true. The only thing that sets them apart functionally speaking (hardware), is the firmware is a proprietary form of EFI. That's it. The rest of it is aesthetics (case) and the OS.

So there's not any differences in terms of hardware to justify the cost differences of the '09's. Other PC makers are also high for their Nehalem based servers and workstations, but are simply following Apple's lead IMO. Also, keep in mind that the web based pricing for Dell is high. Make a phone call, and they'll offer the system for less. At least that's been my experience on the business side, which is where such systems are aimed.
 
nanofrog said:
The sweet spot seems to be the '08 models. The '06 - '07 models are already hamstrung by the EFI32 firmware, and Apple's total unwillingness to release an update to EFI64. The '09's are limited in terms of DIMM slots (applicable to some), and then there's the issues with hardware based RAID. I'm forgetting something... Oh yeah... COST. :eek: :p

It's certainly not the days of PPC vs. Intel. Now the components and design implementations are the same as any other PC. I know some might think that a hideous thing to say, but from a technical POV, it's true. The only thing that sets them apart functionally speaking (hardware), is the firmware is a proprietary form of EFI. That's it. The rest of it is aesthetics (case) and the OS.

So there's not any differences in terms of hardware to justify the cost differences of the '09's. Other PC makers are also high for their Nehalem based servers and workstations, but are simply following Apple's lead IMO. Also, keep in mind that the web based pricing for Dell is high. Make a phone call, and they'll offer the system for less. At least that's been my experience on the business side, which is where such systems are aimed.
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I couldn't agree more particularly on the EFI32 issue which sucks bad time. Those gains in Vista that Tutor is telling will be lost to the majority of 2006 and 2007 users with a 32bit EFI. You cannot even install Vista in a regular way on those machines.

The next big issue will be 64 bit kernel. In some years all older Macs will have resale discounts because they do not get the modern firmware. Apple have created a complete firmware desaster since 2006. I accept that 1366 is a big step from 771 and would accept some features to be restricted to the Nehalem architecture but not having EFI64 and kernel64 on the MacPro1,1 to 3,1 is wicked.
 
nanofrog said:
The sweet spot seems to be the '08 models. The '06 - '07 models are already hamstrung by the EFI32 firmware, and Apple's total unwillingness to release an update to EFI64. The '09's are limited in terms of DIMM slots (applicable to some), and then there's the issues with hardware based RAID. I'm forgetting something... Oh yeah... COST. :eek: :p
Click to expand...

You also forgot that the SATA bus is crippled in the 09's and that it's not overclockable, oh yeah and the RAM speed it crippled too - oh wait there's more - How few PCIe slots are there?

The Mac 09 machines are a net loss all the way around. It's just sad! Totally sad!
 
Can you remind me how the Sata bus is crippled?

Tesselator said:
You also forgot that the SATA bus is crippled in the 09's and that it's not overclockable, oh yeah and the RAM speed it crippled too - oh wait there's more - How few PCIe slots are there?

The Mac 09 machines are a net loss all the way around. It's just sad! Totally sad!
Click to expand...
 
gugucom said:
I couldn't agree more particularly on the EFI32 issue which sucks bad time. Those gains in Vista that Tutor is telling will be lost to the majority of 2006 and 2007 users with a 32bit EFI. You cannot even install Vista in a regular way on those machines.

The next big issue will be 64 bit kernel. In some years all older Macs will have resale discounts because they do not get the modern firmware. Apple have created a complete firmware desaster since 2006. I accept that 1366 is a big step from 771 and would accept some features to be restricted to the Nehalem architecture but not having EFI64 and kernel64 on the MacPro1,1 to 3,1 is wicked.
Click to expand...
It's certainly applicable in multiple senses, as it's been mentioned before. Graphics card options are already becoming limited, as they're 64bit firmware, and don't always include a 32bit variant on the ROM (or will offer a 32 bit version that could be flashed). Fortunately, the HD4870 does, but it may be the last of such a card.

And as you mention, the Kernel. Not a problem if the user is happy with 32bit Kernel, but some may want or need the 64bit version, and that will be a big issue in the near future (when the 32bit Kernel is finally dropped). My guess, 10.6 will be the only dual Kernel version, and it will be the last version of OS X for '06 - '07 owners.

Apple's really ripping their customers on this one. What's worse, they could fix this issue, and it wouldn't take an enormous effort either. :(

Tutor said:
I've been on a Safari, literally, and found a promising bit of software that may hold the key for OC'ing 2009 Mac Pro's. For now it appears most immediately promising only in Bootcamp and for those whose processors are 2.93 Ghz or slower. That leaves me out because my 2009 Mac Pro is now a 3.20 Ghz machine. Here's the rub for me and others similarly situated: this software uses and assumes a 133 Mhz BCLCK and has only a 25x top multiplier. This means 133 times 25 = 3325 Mhz top speed increase ( not much room for me to see a real speed increase). This tool may be enough MOBO agnostic to fill the bill and could , with a OSX and increased multiplier rewrite , hold the key to what we've all been looking for. It works on pure PC's and Hackintoshes running Gate's software. Without further ado, I present to Mac Pro 2009 owners using Bootcamp - Tweaker v 1.2 ( http://www.tweakers.fr/cputweaker.html ). There's a 1.3 beta on http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=92190 . By the way, I've tried to trick Snow Leopard into letting me speed up the processors in OSX, without success, by running Tweaker v 1.2 on OSX through Parallels 4 and VMWare 2. Maybe someone else will have better luck. I disclaim any and all warranties, i.e., you're on your own.
Click to expand...
It won't help the EFI firmware issue though. :eek: :p

But an app that allows Over Clocking to MP's would be welcome for the '09's. ZDnet took care of earlier systems, though IIRC, Tesselator had some issues with it on an '06 model. I'd assume it would be the same on an '07 model, but it did work well for the '08's. :)

Tesselator said:
You also forgot that the SATA bus is crippled in the 09's and that it's not overclockable, oh yeah and the RAM speed it crippled too - oh wait there's more - How few PCIe slots are there?

The Mac 09 machines are a net loss all the way around. It's just sad! Totally sad!
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know I didn't include everything. :D I don't think about SSD's in RAID much ATM, as the cost is so high. But once the price comes down, it will become a prominent gripe IMO. As it happens, this one isn't Apple's fault, but Intel's.

I'm not so sure the RAM clock is limited, as 1333MHz is yet to be tried I think. 1600MHz+ won't, as it will default to 1066MHz. It does this on any Nehalem based board running stock settings. It has to be changed in the firmware, which is unaccessible to MP's. That's an issue for some, and for other reasons as well (lack of access to the built in RAID functions of the ICH10R, crippled or not). Had this been available to gugucom for example, he'd have had a much easier time of getting a pair of SSD's in a stripe set for Windows IMO. Slot count, definitely, but 4 is rather standard for workstations. And you know it! :eek: ;) :p
 
I may have something for you...

Tutor,

I did some digging and I apologize if this is already common knowledge. I found an EFI boot loader for Mac OS X called rEFIt. Once installed, simply reboot twice and you will see the rEFIt startup screen upon boot-up. You can then simply enter the EFI command line interface. I presume, once in the EFI command line, you will be able to issue commands and possibly modify parameters. I don't know what commands or parameters are accessible in this interface, but it's definitely a start. I confirmed that this works under 10.6.1, but remember to restart twice if you do not see the rEFIt boot screen after the first restart.

You can download rEFIt here. Give it a spin. If you can find a list of commands or parameters, you can experiment once you boot into the EFI CLI mode.
 
AppleWorking said:
Yes, there are two:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/757863/

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/762901/

Both i7s. ;)
Click to expand...

Actually three now..:CINEBENCH R10
****************************************************

Tester : MsBeezy

Processor : i7 -975 3.33
MHz :
Number of CPUs : 8
Operating System : OS X 32 BIT 10.6.1

Graphics Card : ATI Radeon HD 4870 OpenGL Engine
Resolution : <fill this out>
Color Depth : <fill this out>

****************************************************

Rendering (Single CPU): 4401 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): 17942 CB-CPU

Multiprocessor Speedup:

Shading (OpenGL Standard) : 7716 CB-GFX


****************************************************
 
handheldgames said:
But... It would work awesome for my rig with the unlocked i7 975. :cool:

If we could find the multiplier...
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Nehalem BCLK = 133MHz, so take the stock frequency listed for the processor and divide by BCLK.

In the case of the i7-975, that would produce a multiplier of 25 as the default setting (25*133 = 3325). :)

But it's actually unlocked, so you can take the default BCLK (133) & increase the multiplier to get additional performance, rather than only being able to change the BCLK values, and eventually either method would require voltage increases to various sections of the system.
 
I did a bunch of reading last night... well into the morning.. And was not able to find any references or discussions on how rEFIt could be used to modify the BCLK setting... Even the available documentation on

Even the available online documentation is very vague to say the least...

Has anyone out there had experience in this area?

thx!!



nanofrog said:
Nehalem BCLK = 133MHz, so take the stock frequency listed for the processor and divide by BCLK.

In the case of the i7-975, that would produce a multiplier of 25 as the default setting (25*133 = 3325). :)

But it's actually unlocked, so you can take the default BCLK (133) & increase the multiplier to get additional performance, rather than only being able to change the BCLK values, and eventually either method would require voltage increases to various sections of the system.
Click to expand...
 
handheldgames said:
I did a bunch of reading last night... well into the morning.. And was not able to find any references or discussions on how rEFIt could be used to modify the BCLK setting... Even the available documentation on

Even the available online documentation is very vague to say the least...

Has anyone out there had experience in this area?

thx!!
Click to expand...
rEFiT wasn't designed for overclocking at all, but rather as a GUI based boot loader. That's it.

I just gave some details of how the BCLK affects the Nehalem systems, and how it can be used to OC a system. To do that, you need one of the following:
1. Firmware access (ideally to clock and voltage settings)
2. A Utility that loads the new parameters
3. A pin mod to make the system think it's a different part. So far, I've not seen one anywhere on the Nehalem parts, as there's enough boards available on the PC side to preclude adequate interest (motivation to find such a way). :(
 
Appleworking,
Have no noticed any odd behaviour in the sleep mode ? My machine goes to sleep ok but I can't wake it..upon wake the fan revs up then throttles down to a slightly increased rpm but the screen/system does not wake and it appears I have to reboot...
 
Msbeezy said:
Appleworking,
Have no noticed any odd behaviour in the sleep mode ? My machine goes to sleep ok but I can't wake it..upon wake the fan revs up then throttles down to a slightly increased rpm but the screen/system does not wake and it appears I have to reboot...
Click to expand...
I don't have any problems like that at all. I was wondering about your problem when I saw your post @ apple so I checked my sleep behavior in both OSX and Windows and my MP sleeps and wakes as it should. In fact, there has not been any odd or strange behavior since the upgrade, works perfectly, if not better than before...

Try to see if anyone else with the i7 upgrade has any problems, similar or dissimilar. I would direct your question to AZREO, he's very helpful and a nice guy. If I were you, though, I wouldn't be asking for this help over @ apple. We wouldn't want them to break something in the future. I doubt they ever would, but the more of us who do this the better the odds since apple has been a little strange about their MPs as of late... More to the point, complete @sses... :D

I'm sure AZREO will see this and give you an answer... ;) Good luck!
 
@ Msbeezy

I just saw another of your posts @ apple...

"Just swapped original cpu back in and gbench is almost 11000 and sleep issue resolved (for those not in the know I couldn't wake from sleep with the 3.33 inserted)..this chipset swap is over and turns out not Very Extreme :(
THE END"​

Sorry to hear, bummer. :(

I just found this, seems AZREO might have the same issue with the i7.
AZREOSpecialist said:
I had a kernel panic the other day when waking from sleep, but I often had those with my G5 Power Mac so it didn't really phase me.
Click to expand...
 
rEFIt lets you check drivers loaded into EFI and if there are interfaces in the firmware you can adress it with a command shell.

A good example is my Areca ARC1210 RAID card. If I load EFI firmware on it I can address the card in the command shell. I can call up the configuration utility from the command shell and set up RAID sets and Volume sets. It is pretty awesome.

But it all depends of the firmware that resides in the system at a given time. If you have no firmware based over clocking facility you will probably not be able to do something with it.
 
No issues with my i7 975 Extreme. I started having wake from sleep issues after upgrading to 10.6 Snow Leopard, but resetting the motherboard SMC, zapping PRAM and removing some legacy control panes has restored wake from sleep. As far as performance is concerned, I am getting 11,500 on Geekbench which is in line with results I see from PCs running 4-core Core i7 920s @ 4.0 GHz and approx. 20% better than Mac Pro 4-core W3540 Xeon (2.93 GHz) which is benchmarking in the 9,500-10,000 range. I would say the Core i7 975 Extreme performance is perfectly in line with expectations and no better or worse than its Xeon counterpart. At least in Geekbench.

I suspect, Msbeezy, that something else may be amiss with your upgrade. Did you check your CPU temps to ensure everything was correct? What type of RAM are you using? Did you apply the thermal paste as outlined in this link for multiple core Intel CPUs (see lower right corner of page for proper application for Core i7)? Have you checked your system for software conflicts?
 
I had a dream last night about overclocking the Mac Pro. Yes, I need to get a life. In my dream, there was a hidden folder containing all of the settings in a simple preferences file. The trouble was finding the hidden folder! If only it were that simple... :)
 
Well my i975 just showed up today... Looking forward to installing it this evening... Just need to go buy some thermal paste.. Have some of the cheap stuff.. can't seem to find my artic silver.. Need to go pick some up!
 
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