8/8+/X has the same sensor size 1/3" as 6/6+, where is the promoted improvement?

[the future]

So much fail in this thread.

1. Yes, all other things being equal, a bigger sensor is better than a smaller sensor.
2. All smartphone sensors are tiny.
3. All other things are far from equal. Especially considering the tiny size of all smartphone sensors, the software side (image signal processing) is extremely important. OIS, hardware noise reduction, new colour filter will all help with picture quality as well.
4. A tiny sensor today is better than the same size sensor from a year ago, which was itself better than the same size sensor from two years ago.
5. Apple says the sensor is bigger, so you can bet your house it is indeed bigger. 80% more input of light is nothing to sneeze at. How much bigger the sensor itself really is is not very important; in any case it's still tiny. The proof is in the pudding/pictures, and here the 8/8+ seems to deliver.
6. Engineering is always a game of compromises. You can't just put a bigger sensor in it and call it a day. A bigger sensor needs bigger optics. Imagine the reaction if the camera hump was even more pronounced than it already is.
7. The picture quality we get from top-end smartphones today is absolutely astonishing. Computational advances make taking great pictures easier than ever. Things like portrait mode and portrait lighting are super impressive examples of this. That being said, if you want to take even better pictures in even more difficult circumstances, buy a dedicated system camera; expect a relatively steep learning curve.
[doublepost=1506265132][/doublepost]

Remarkable how much incorrect and non-information/mis-information in one thread and lack of understanding. Where does anybody get something like 1/2.8" as a dimension???? Mean f2.8? That's a fstop, not a dimension.

"They’re both Sony backside-illuminated chips that measure 32.8 square millimeters — but the default, wide-angle camera sensor has a pixel pitch of 1.22 micrometers, while the zoom’s has a smaller 1-micrometer pitch."

"Larger pitch means more room for light to hit, and that extra quarter of a micrometer means a lot at this scale. So the wide camera might be considerably better in low light, requiring less ISO boosting and allowing shorter exposure lengths

"Lastly, this is the first time Apple has put a “stacked” sensor in their cameras, with pixel wells, signal processing, and memory all in one thin unit. So be sure to thank Sony too when you tell everyone how great the iPhone 8’s camera is.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/22/iphone-8-teardown-reveals-few-surprises-but-more-camera-details/

Great link, thanks for that.

 

[santela]

Go buy the competitor phone of the week, I'm sure the sensor is 10x larger than iPhone 8, with 4x the RAM and 8x the MHz. Just don't blame me when your pictures turn out like garbage, your phone is slow, and has no battery life despite all of that. Apple isn't about checking boxes or having the best specs, the company is focused on delivering the best user experience, and they are succeeding wildly at it.

I know this is an Apple forum, but can we at least try to be somewhat objective here?

Yes Apple is the fastest, that’s something no Android phone can compete with.

You can make a case for cameras, but most tech reviewers rank Samsung higher in that department. Can’t say about the 8 since it just came out.

And iPhone objectively has one of the worst battery life’s among flagship phones. I don’t know why you would even bring it up.

It’s 2017, it’s okay to admit Apple isn’t winning in every department.

 

[d5aqoëp]

Irrespective of sensor size, iPhone 8+ uses Bionic/Neural/Human tissues/polyps whatever machine learning algorithms they have developed to tweak the lighting/sharpness/aperture/exposure to create true to life or better than life photos. They have prevented such wizardry from happening on non-bionic SOCs either due to Planned Obsolesence or previous phones are simply incapable. There might be tiny improvements to lens quality/sensor's light absorbing capacity/manufacturing process which also add to better camera performance.

So all those little improvements add up to create pictures which are slightly/hugely better than iPhone 7.

I hope you are not expecting Canon 1000D -> Canon 5D Mark III kind of jump. You cannot.

In future, we will be able to take photo of new moon and algorithms will allow us to edit the photo to be either full moon or any phase in between.

Neural/probiotic/machine learning/scrotum assisted augmented reality on the back of the spider are the words made of a very bright future.

 

[appledarklord]

Honestly, I don't know. I don't have the device yet because it hasn't yet launched in my country. There are only two articles, that I have come across so far, that say anything about the camera sensor size on the new iPhones. One of them says it's 1/2.8" and the other says it's unchanged, at 1/3".

I get a feeling that Apple might have put a different sensor in the iPhone X. Larger than the one on the iPhone 8/8+. So technically all three phones have a "new, larger and faster sensor" as they said in the keynote, but only the X gets the really good sensor with larger pixels. It's what I think. There is 98% chance that I'm wrong, and all the three phones have the same sensor, but who knows?

I saw a reply saying the new sensor area technically is very little bit bigger than 7/6+ sensor, but the crop area on the sensor for a photo is the same as before, it is still technically a 1/3" sensor.

 

[Jimmy James]

How about look at the photos instead of measuring the sensor size to find the improvement. A sensor doesn’t have to be bigger to be better.

Size isn't the only criteria but all other things being equal bigger is better.

 

[fs454]

sensor size is the biggest factor, no doubt.
[doublepost=1506226522][/doublepost]I am currently using 6s+. If 8+ is basically the same as 7+, I just switch to 7+ then.

Not entirely. The performance of the sensor and the images it produces are the biggest factors. Bigger eases some constraints, but developing a new sensor from scratch for the same size casing using newer techniques is going to make a better sensor regardless of if they were able to make it bigger or not, in the same way that the Apple Watch can get faster this year even though it’s not been changed physically.

Maybe they increased the photosite size another way? Maybe they found a way to do BSI (spoiler, they did)? There are other ways of increasing the ability to capture light without you being able to physically see a bigger plane, and some sensors are just plain better than others. The Canon 5D mk4 full frame sensor is vastly inferior to the one in the Sony A7RII in dynamic range, low light performance, and resolution. Same size, entirely different performance. There’s room to improve here without having to go bigger, otherwise Apple would have gone bigger.

 

[Black Magic]

I thought about buying the new iphone and camera is my main concern, so I check it out online...

In the key note, they said the sensor would be bigger and more light. Well....
http://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_8_plus-8131.php
http://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_6s_plus-7243.php

The camera spec is basically exactly the same! The camera sensor size is the main factor and it is just the same! It is 1/3" which is so small and so outdated comparing to other android flagships like Note 8 or whatever. So where is the promised improvement!? 6s is a two years old phone come on Apple!?

Iphone X would have the same main sensor as well!? 999 US dollars for a 2 years old 6s sensor!? What's going on Apple!?

I thought iphone would be finally the real king of phone camera!? Why lie in the keynote! I am very disappointed!

https://www.dxomark.com/apple-iphone-8-plus-reviewed-the-best-smartphone-camera-ever-tested/

 

[rocksyoursock]

Remarkable how much incorrect and non-information/mis-information in one thread and lack of understanding. Where does anybody get something like 1/2.8" as a dimension???? Mean f2.8? That's a fstop, not a dimension.

"They’re both Sony backside-illuminated chips that measure 32.8 square millimeters — but the default, wide-angle camera sensor has a pixel pitch of 1.22 micrometers, while the zoom’s has a smaller 1-micrometer pitch."

"Larger pitch means more room for light to hit, and that extra quarter of a micrometer means a lot at this scale. So the wide camera might be considerably better in low light, requiring less ISO boosting and allowing shorter exposure lengths

"Lastly, this is the first time Apple has put a “stacked” sensor in their cameras, with pixel wells, signal processing, and memory all in one thin unit. So be sure to thank Sony too when you tell everyone how great the iPhone 8’s camera is.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/22/iphone-8-teardown-reveals-few-surprises-but-more-camera-details/

1/2.8" is a size relating to a camera sensor, and f2.8 is an f-stop, relating to the aperture of a lens

 

[appledarklord]

Not entirely. The performance of the sensor and the images it produces are the biggest factors. Bigger eases some constraints, but developing a new sensor from scratch for the same size casing using newer techniques is going to make a better sensor regardless of if they were able to make it bigger or not, in the same way that the Apple Watch can get faster this year even though it’s not been changed physically.

Maybe they increased the photosite size another way? Maybe they found a way to do BSI (spoiler, they did)? There are other ways of increasing the ability to capture light without you being able to physically see a bigger plane, and some sensors are just plain better than others. The Canon 5D mk4 full frame sensor is vastly inferior to the one in the Sony A7RII in dynamic range, low light performance, and resolution. Same size, entirely different performance. There’s room to improve here without having to go bigger, otherwise Apple would have gone bigger.

Apple doesn't want to go bigger because that would hurt the profit. Apple's plan is to do whatever with the software to maximum the photo quality which is a small cost comparing to buy a bigger sensor camera. This way is the most profitable but not the best for customers.

 

[protoxx]

1/2.8" is a size relating to a camera sensor, and f2.8 is an f-stop, relating to the aperture of a lens

I don't see anything like that.

CAMERA Primary Dual 12 MP, (28mm, f/1.8, OIS & 56mm, f/2.8), phase detection autofocus, 2x optical zoom, quad-LED (dual tone) flash
Features 1/3" sensor size @ 28mm, 1/3.6" sensor size @ 56mm, geo-tagging, simultaneous 4K video and 8MP image recording, touch focus, face/smile detection, HDR (photo/panorama)
Video 2160p@24/30/60fps, 1080p@30/60/120/240fps
Secondary 7 MP, f/2.2, 1080p@30fps, 720p@240fps, face detection, HDR, panorama

http://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_8_plus-8131.php

 

[appledarklord]

I don't see anything like that.

CAMERA Primary Dual 12 MP, (28mm, f/1.8, OIS & 56mm, f/2.8), phase detection autofocus, 2x optical zoom, quad-LED (dual tone) flash
Features 1/3" sensor size @ 28mm, 1/3.6" sensor size @ 56mm, geo-tagging, simultaneous 4K video and 8MP image recording, touch focus, face/smile detection, HDR (photo/panorama)
Video 2160p@24/30/60fps, 1080p@30/60/120/240fps
Secondary 7 MP, f/2.2, 1080p@30fps, 720p@240fps, face detection, HDR, panorama

http://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_8_plus-8131.php

You don't sound like you know anything about camera but it ok, most of the iphone users don't know anything about camera anyway, so it is normal.

 

[rocksyoursock]

I don't see anything like that.

CAMERA Primary Dual 12 MP, (28mm, f/1.8, OIS & 56mm, f/2.8), phase detection autofocus, 2x optical zoom, quad-LED (dual tone) flash
Features 1/3" sensor size @ 28mm, 1/3.6" sensor size @ 56mm, geo-tagging, simultaneous 4K video and 8MP image recording, touch focus, face/smile detection, HDR (photo/panorama)
Video 2160p@24/30/60fps, 1080p@30/60/120/240fps
Secondary 7 MP, f/2.2, 1080p@30fps, 720p@240fps, face detection, HDR, panorama

http://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_8_plus-8131.php

You literally copied and pasted a sensor size right below you saying you don't see anything like it. "Features 1/3" sensor size @28mm". My post stated that 1/2.8" refers to a camera's sensor size. Things like 1/2.8" and 1/3" are sensor sizes. I am a photographer and don't really care about cell phone cameras in the slightest but for you to claim this stuff bothered me enough to respond.

 

[protoxx]

You don't sound like you know anything about camera but it ok, most of the iphone users don't know anything about camera anyway, so it is normal.

So, where is the 1/2.8" coming from?

None of the cameras/sensors on any of the cameras on the ip8 or ip8+ have anything like a 1/2.8" specification of any type.

I bow to your understanding that any digital camera sensor of a particular size has identical performance to any other digital camera sensor of the same size. Go back to your middle school homework.

 

[appledarklord]

You literally copied and pasted a sensor size right below you saying you don't see anything like it. "Features 1/3" sensor size @28mm". My post stated that 1/2.8" refers to a camera's sensor size. Things like 1/2.8" and 1/3" are sensor sizes. I am a photographer and don't really care about cell phone cameras in the slightest but for you to claim this stuff bothered me enough to respond.

yeah he is very funny, it is like he cannot/hasn't read what he has been posted in his signature lol xd!
[doublepost=1506272364][/doublepost]

So, where is the 1/2.8" coming from?

None of the cameras/sensors on any of the cameras on the ip8 or ip8+ have anything like a 1/2.8" specification of any type.

I bow to your understanding that any digital camera sensor of a particular size has identical performance to any other digital camera sensor of the same size. Go back to your middle school homework.

seriously...you are like....discussing basketball with us but you keep telling us there isn't a ball on the court while you are wearing a t-shirt with a basketball on it.

 

[rocksyoursock]

So, where is the 1/2.8" coming from?

None of the cameras/sensors on any of the cameras on the ip8 or ip8+ have anything like a 1/2.8" specification of any type.

I bow to your understanding that any digital camera sensor of a particular size has identical performance to any other digital camera sensor of the same size. Go back to your middle school homework.

I don't know or care what specific sensor the iPhone 8 camera has. I never said the iPhone had a 1/2.8". I said 1/2.8" is a sensor size in cameras. Googling showed me the Galaxy S8 has a 1/2.55". The iPhone 5 had a 1/3.2". I am not posting those to compare brands or say which is better, etc. Maybe the iPhone 8 has a 1/3" or a 1/2.8". I really don't care. To say people are misinformed because you don't know what a sensor size is and they do was just frustrating to me.

 

[protoxx]

You literally copied and pasted a sensor size right below you saying you don't see anything like it. "Features 1/3" sensor size @28mm". My post stated that 1/2.8" refers to a camera's sensor size. Things like 1/2.8" and 1/3" are sensor sizes. I am a photographer and don't really care about cell phone cameras in the slightest but for you to claim this stuff bothered me enough to respond.

Repeat, where do you find 1/2.8" in specification for any sensor for the ip8 or ip8+?

I see
"1/3" sensor size @ 28mm, 1/3.6" sensor size @ 56mm" for the primary back side camera sensors.

The only 2.8 I see in any of the camera specification are f/2.8 aka the fstop for the aperture. I'm giving you the credit of merely misreading and mistaking f/2.8 for 1/2.8". A simple mistake instead of making things up.

 

[fs454]

Apple doesn't want to go bigger because that would hurt the profit. Apple's plan is to do whatever with the software to maximum the photo quality which is a small cost comparing to buy a bigger sensor camera. This way is the most profitable but not the best for customers.

Lol, alright. That’s why the camera absolutely slays the android flagships and everyone’s heaping praise to Apple right now. I am a career photographer, I live and work with this stuff every single day and this is one hundred percent absurd. Sony’s best tech is on display here in the sensor and it’s apparent when you look at the results.

 

[rocksyoursock]

Repeat, where do you find 1/2.8" in specification for any sensor for the ip8 or ip8+?

I see
"1/3" sensor size @ 28mm, 1/3.6" sensor size @ 56mm" for the primary back side camera sensors.

The only 2.8 I see in any of the camera specification are f/2.8 aka the fstop for the aperture. I'm giving you the credit of merely misreading and mistaking f/2.8 for 1/2.8". A simple mistake instead of making things up.

I was responding to the following:

Where does anybody get something like 1/2.8" as a dimension???? Mean f2.8? That's a fstop, not a dimension.

Something like 1/2.8" is a dimension.

 

[protoxx]

I don't know or care what specific sensor the iPhone 8 camera has. I never said the iPhone had a 1/2.8". I said 1/2.8" is a sensor size in cameras.

If you don't care about the sensor size in ip8 wtf are you talking about?

Saying 1/2.8" is a sensor size has no meaning of any kind. Just like 1" and 1.5" and 1.6"....... and many many others are sensor size. You want to argue about the quality of the 6s camera vs the 8 camera sensor but you want to use a dimension that you attribute to some random sensor that is not the same size as the iphone camera sensors as a talking point?

If you want to talk about the ip6s vs ip8 camera sensor limit yourself to those items.

 

[fs454]

This topic is absolutely ridiculous. It’s literally the same as pinning down any other product on some absurd irrelevent measurement and asking where the improvement they’re trying to claim is because a number I pulled up on my own isn’t a larger number than before. This is not how technology works. This is not how photography works. If it was, we’d all be set on the first full full frame DSLR released because they didn’t make the sensor any bigger in the last couple decades - why bother spending money on an upgrade they’re obviously lying about?

 

[protoxx]

I was responding to the following:


Something like 1/2.8" is a dimension.

It is a dimension of what? Repeat what is 1/2.8" a dimension of? What relevance is it to a iphone 8/8+?

Not a ip8/ip8+/ip6/ip6s camera sensor

38/24/36 are dimensions also. lol

 

[appledarklord]

This topic is absolutely ridiculous. It’s literally the same as pinning down any other product on some absurd irrelevent measurement and asking where the improvement they’re trying to claim is because a number I pulled up on my own isn’t a larger number than before. This is not how technology works. This is not how photography works. If it was, we’d all be set on the first full full frame DSLR released because they didn’t make the sensor any bigger in the last couple decades - why bother spending money on an upgrade they’re obviously lying about?

Because DSLR has maximum the possible sensor size then it is not an issue. But for phones the sensor size can be very different and it is the biggest factor.

 

[rocksyoursock]

It is a dimension of what? Repeat what is 1/2.8" a dimension of? What relevance is it to a iphone 8/8+?

Not a ip8/ip8+/ip6/ip6s camera sensor

38/24/36 are dimensions also. lol

They are not because no unit of measurement is associated with them. 1/2.8" and 1/3" are dimensions because they are associated with " (inches).

I have no idea how to respond to this anymore. I shouldn't even be in this thread because despite the fact I will own the X when it comes out, I don't care what sensor size it has. Someone claimed a type of measurement didn't exist and confused it with f-stop while ironically accusing others of the same thing and I had to respond that it was a valid unit of measurement. I am done. The people who want to claim which camera is actually best should be taking up the comments, not me.

 

[5105973]

I just watch this

not worth the upgrade

I want to facepalm so hard for wasting my time on that video. That guy trots out example after example of the iPhone 8 photo looking noticeably brighter, clearer, with more detail and dynamic range than the iPhone 7 and IPhone 6 photos and he keeps saying "Oh but it's not better enough." Aaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhhh. I want to slap these YouTubers so hard with an exploding Note 7. Seriously, my inner grump is awakening.

Clearly the iPhone 8 camera is the best iPhone camera currently available. For some it is financially easy to upgrade and if they want the best images, they should. For others it's challenging and they may decide it's not wise to put their money into this particular thing. But in no way is the upgrade between the IPhone 7 camera and the IPhone 8 Camera completely insufficient in the absolute and worthy of a complete brushoff. Jeez Louise.

 

[appledarklord]

I want to facepalm so hard for wasting my time on that video. That guy trots out example after example of the iPhone 8 photo looking noticeably brighter, clearer, with more detail and dynamic range than the iPhone 7 and IPhone 6 photos and he keeps saying "Oh but it's not better enough." Aaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhhh. I want to slap these YouTubers so hard with an exploding Note 7. Seriously, my inner grump is awakening.

Clearly the iPhone 8 camera is the best iPhone camera currently available. For some it is financially easy to upgrade and if they want the best images, they should. For others it's challenging and they may decide it's not wise to put their money into this particular thing. But in no way is the upgrade between the IPhone 7 camera and the IPhone Camera completely insufficient in the absolute and worthy of a complete brushoff. Jeez Louise.

Not at all, the iphone 8 photos just look like how samsung process photo with software by "adding" more unnatural color on it. The youtuber explained this very well.

Just as the youtuber explained and the photos speak for itself, the photo quality of 8 is around same as 7 and far behind from android best camera flagships. Iphone X will have the same main sensor so same result.