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8/8+/X has the same sensor size 1/3" as 6/6+, where is the promoted improvement?

Newer and better hardware make better cameras irrespective of camera size. It's like the megapixel debacle where people used to think higher megapixels equate to better image quality. Were they right? No.

Same goes for AMOLED technology. One can argue that Motorola back then had AMOLED too for their phones. Were they as good as the Samsung AMOLED? Of course not! Even Samsung made improvements to the AMOLED screen over time.

At some point I think consumers are led to misinformation by simplifying how tech works and things they should watch out for that they take too much for granted. Is a phone released 3 years ago going to have better quality than the current version of the phone with the same sensor size with different hardware? Of course not!
 
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Starfyre said:
Newer and better hardware make better cameras irrespective of camera size. It's like the megapixel debacle where people used to think higher megapixels equate to better image quality. Were they right? No.

Same goes for AMOLED technology. One can argue that Motorola back then had AMOLED too for their phones. Were they as good as the Samsung AMOLED? Of course not! Even Samsung made improvements to the AMOLED screen over time.

At some point I think consumers are led to misinformation by simplifying how tech works and things they should watch out for that they take too much for granted. Is a phone released 3 years ago going to have better quality than the current version of the phone with the same sensor size with different hardware? Of course!
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This is what Apple would want you to believe. Look like Apple does a good job.
 
Starfyre said:
Newer and better hardware make better cameras irrespective of camera size. It's like the megapixel debacle where people used to think higher megapixels equate to better image quality. Were they right? No.

Same goes for AMOLED technology. One can argue that Motorola back then had AMOLED too for their phones. Were they as good as the Samsung AMOLED? Of course not! Even Samsung made improvements to the AMOLED screen over time.

At some point I think consumers are led to misinformation by simplifying how tech works and things they should watch out for that they take too much for granted. Is a phone released 3 years ago going to have better quality than the current version of the phone with the same sensor size with different hardware? Of course!
Click to expand...

I would like to contribute in a way that I hope isn't argumentative. Higher megapixel does not equal better quality. Absolutely true. One of the reasons for this is that when you divide a sensor into less pixels, the pixels (although fewer) let in more light. Images can be brighter and have less noise. A low-noise, bright 8 megapixel image will be better than a 16 megapixel one using the same sensor. Apple was absolutely correct with this and other manufacturers followed.

The sensor size isn't a huge deal in this case, but technically, a larger sensor lets in more light. An entire section of the iPhone 6's keynote was devoted to explaining why a larger sensor with less megapixels was important – it allows for larger pixels. To state its not important at all, would negate Apple's whole philosophy on the topic.

In this case though, it doesn't matter. They made it so that the images come out incredible regardless on the iPhone 8/Plus/X even if they do have a smaller sensor than assumed – the processor, sensor efficiency, etc all play roles. Its like the battery – the iPhone 8 technically has a smaller battery, but the battery life is the same.

I can't wait for my new iPhone. I don't want anyone to think me explaining that a larger sensor technically lets in more light and is in fact important is somehow a jab at all to Apple. What they did is incredible. I am just explaining how a thing works while also stating Apple did an amazing job with their inbuilt camera and is probably the best one you can get. I am super impressed with the photos that I've seen.
 
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rocksyoursock said:
I would like to contribute in a way that I hope isn't argumentative. Higher megapixel does not equal better quality. Absolutely true. One of the reasons for this is that when you divide a sensor into less pixels, the pixels (although fewer) let in more light. Images can be brighter and have less noise. A low-noise, bright 8 megapixel image will be better than a 16 megapixel one using the same sensor. Apple was absolutely correct with this and other manufacturers followed.

The sensor size isn't a huge deal in this case, but technically, a larger sensor lets in more light. An entire section of the iPhone 6's keynote was devoted to explaining why a larger sensor with less megapixels was important – it allows for larger pixels. To state its not important at all, would negate Apple's whole philosophy on the topic.

In this case though, it doesn't matter. They made it so that the images come out incredible regardless on the iPhone 8/Plus/X even if they do have a smaller sensor than assumed – the processor, sensor efficiency, etc all play roles. Its like the battery – the iPhone 8 technically has a smaller battery, but the battery life is the same.

I can't wait for my new iPhone. I don't want anyone to think me explaining that a larger sensor technically lets in more light and is in fact important is somehow a jab at all to Apple. What they did is incredible. I am just explaining how a thing works while also stating Apple did an amazing job with their inbuilt camera and is probably the best one you can get. I am super impressed with the photos that I've seen.
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Argumentative? I found your post educational and optimistic. :D
The best review I've seen on these boards so far on the camera quality (though specific to 8+, still not many signs of 8 photos... sigh) is this one:

http://austinmann.com/trek/iphone-8-camera-review-india

I think the photos look better than what some SLRs can produce, if not equal.
 
Starfyre said:
Argumentative? I found your post educational and optimistic. :D
The best review I've seen on these boards so far on the camera quality (though specific to 8+, still not many signs of 8 photos... sigh) is this one:

http://austinmann.com/trek/iphone-8-camera-review-india

I think the photos look better than what some SLRs can produce, if not equal.
Click to expand...
Listen, I will totally admit its the best cell phone camera. But I don't think it will replace a great SLR with some nice lenses :D

Seriously though, I've seen the link. The phone is absolutely incredible. They are really disrupting an industry.
 
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rocksyoursock said:
I would like to contribute in a way that I hope isn't argumentative. Higher megapixel does not equal better quality. Absolutely true. One of the reasons for this is that when you divide a sensor into less pixels, the pixels (although fewer) let in more light. Images can be brighter and have less noise. A low-noise, bright 8 megapixel image will be better than a 16 megapixel one using the same sensor. Apple was absolutely correct with this and other manufacturers followed.

The sensor size isn't a huge deal in this case, but technically, a larger sensor lets in more light. An entire section of the iPhone 6's keynote was devoted to explaining why a larger sensor with less megapixels was important – it allows for larger pixels. To state its not important at all, would negate Apple's whole philosophy on the topic.

In this case though, it doesn't matter. They made it so that the images come out incredible regardless on the iPhone 8/Plus/X even if they do have a smaller sensor than assumed – the processor, sensor efficiency, etc all play roles. Its like the battery – the iPhone 8 technically has a smaller battery, but the battery life is the same.

I can't wait for my new iPhone. I don't want anyone to think me explaining that a larger sensor technically lets in more light and is in fact important is somehow a jab at all to Apple. What they did is incredible. I am just explaining how a thing works while also stating Apple did an amazing job with their inbuilt camera and is probably the best one you can get. I am super impressed with the photos that I've seen.
Click to expand...

The pixel size is the same as it used to be. 8 has almost no improvement.
 
I love it when a person in denial is forcing other people to share their knowledge in order to correct him. This thread is a goldmine.
 
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protoxx said:
Remarkable how much incorrect and non-information/mis-information in one thread and lack of understanding. Where does anybody get something like 1/2.8" as a dimension???? Mean f2.8? That's a fstop, not a dimension.

"They’re both Sony backside-illuminated chips that measure 32.8 square millimeters — but the default, wide-angle camera sensor has a pixel pitch of 1.22 micrometers, while the zoom’s has a smaller 1-micrometer pitch."

"Larger pitch means more room for light to hit, and that extra quarter of a micrometer means a lot at this scale. So the wide camera might be considerably better in low light, requiring less ISO boosting and allowing shorter exposure lengths

"Lastly, this is the first time Apple has put a “stacked” sensor in their cameras, with pixel wells, signal processing, and memory all in one thin unit. So be sure to thank Sony too when you tell everyone how great the iPhone 8’s camera is.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/22/iphone-8-teardown-reveals-few-surprises-but-more-camera-details/
Click to expand...


1/2.8 “ is a sensor dimension (and a f stop)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exmor
 
appledarklord said:
I thought about buying the new iphone and camera is my main concern, so I check it out online...

In the key note, they said the sensor would be bigger and more light. Well....
http://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_8_plus-8131.php
http://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_6s_plus-7243.php

The camera spec is basically exactly the same! The camera sensor size is the main factor and it is just the same! It is 1/3" which is so small and so outdated comparing to other android flagships like Note 8 or whatever. So where is the promised improvement!? 6s is a two years old phone come on Apple!?

Iphone X would have the same main sensor as well!? 999 US dollars for a 2 years old 6s sensor!? What's going on Apple!?

I thought iphone would be finally the real king of phone camera!? Why lie in the keynote! I am very disappointed!
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I’d say that GSMArena just entered those details into specifications without proof of it for now.. If Apple told it’s bigger, it should be/will ... maybe 1/2.8” or something...
 
Susurs said:
I’d say that GSMArena just entered those details into specifications without proof of it for now.. If Apple told it’s bigger, it should be/will ... maybe 1/2.8” or something...
Click to expand...

Read replies above, high chance still 1/3"
 
I understand your concerns TS, I really do. But sometimes life is about compromises. We all know how Apple is obsessed with thin products. I’m sure they wanted to put in a bigger sensor but that will make the phone thicker or the camera bump even more protruding. So I believe they chose to use the best 1/3” sensor available on the market and used software (which they are darn good at) to coverup and even overcome the shortcomings of using a smaller sensor than the competition.

At the end of the day, the result speaks for itself. The iPhone 8/8+ is indeed an improvement over the 7/7+ and in certain aspects even better than some other competing using bigger sensors. There’s no perfect product, buy what you like the most

You can continue to rant about how Apple is trying to maximise profit by continuing to use a smaller sensor, but the fact is you aren’t Tim Cook. We will all never know what made them decided to stick to 1/3”. I suggest that you get a Samsung or other android phones with a bigger sensor since you’re so adamant about it.
 
I dunno what the argument is here. The photos out of the 8 are clearly improved (in general detail, noise, and low light especially, which also benefits portrait mode). It's quite significant. Who cares how it's done... it's being done (ISP, lens, sensor, who cares...)

And I have a business that is all about making images. It's about the best tool for what you do. Not about sensor sizes and pixels, all things being equal (cell phone vs a DSLR for example).
 
alleggerita said:
I understand your concerns TS, I really do. But sometimes life is about compromises. We all know how Apple is obsessed with thin products. I’m sure they wanted to put in a bigger sensor but that will make the phone thicker or the camera bump even more protruding. So I believe they chose to use the best 1/3” sensor available on the market and used software (which they are darn good at) to coverup and even overcome the shortcomings of using a smaller sensor than the competition.

At the end of the day, the result speaks for itself. The iPhone 8/8+ is indeed an improvement over the 7/7+ and in certain aspects even better than some other competing using bigger sensors. There’s no perfect product, buy what you like the most

You can continue to rant about how Apple is trying to maximise profit by continuing to use a smaller sensor, but the fact is you aren’t Tim Cook. We will all never know what made them decided to stick to 1/3”. I suggest that you get a Samsung or other android phones with a bigger sensor since you’re so adamant about it.
Click to expand...

Latest android phones with much bigger sensor is not thicker. Sony dominate the sensor market so using a small sensor cut a lot of cost for sure and boost profit. Recent stock price and all related stock drop because of iphone 8 sales is nothing closed to expect gives apple what it deserves. All related iphone component stocks in asia drop like hell.
 
Random third party sites from a quick Gooooooooogle. Seems to be more than marketing going on with the iPhone 8 camera. The sensor is better for reasons I don't understand. But if somebody's pica pole says they are the same then who are these folks to argue?

knowyourmobile.com
Both the iPhone 6s and iPhone 8 have the same megapixels in the rear cameras, however, the sensors in the iPhone 8’s rear camera offers optical image stabilisation, wide colour capture for photos and Live Photos, and quad-LED True Tone flash with slow sync. As for the front camera, the iPhone 8 offers a 7MP sensor (versus 5MP in the 6s) and features 1080p HD video recording (versus 720p HD in the 6s).

TechCrunch.com
We’ve already learned that the rear camera is probably the best ever in a phone. This teardown was of the 8, not the 8 Plus, but TechInsights did a bit of x-raying on the latter and found something that may be slightly interesting to sensor freaks.

They’re both Sony backside-illuminated chips that measure 32.8 square millimeters — but the default, wide-angle camera sensor has a pixel pitch of 1.22 micrometers, while the zoom’s has a smaller 1-micrometer pitch.

Larger pitch means more room for light to hit, and that extra quarter of a micrometer means a lot at this scale. So the wide camera might be considerably better in low light, requiring less ISO boosting and allowing shorter exposure lengths.

Lastly, this is the first time Apple has put a “stacked” sensor in their cameras, with pixel wells, signal processing, and memory all in one thin unit. So be sure to thank Sony too when you tell everyone how great the iPhone 8’s camera is!

techinsights.com
Phil Schiller introduced us to iPhone 8's cameras beginning with the A11 Bionic's specs, which include a new Apple-designed image signal processor (ISP) that helps improve autofocus (AF) performance in low-light, and features pixel processing for enhanced sharpness and texture. rst time, the ISP on iPhone’s application processor (AP) features hardware-enabled multi-band noise reduction. Of course, this new AP functionality complements the processing done on the stacked chip image sensors’ companion ISPs.

As for the image sensors, Mr. Schiller commented at launch that while there is no change for the iPhone 8 camera resolution, the rear-facing 12 MP camera features a new, larger CIS. iPhone 8 Plus uses a dual camera system adding a telephoto camera with 12 MP CIS. The FaceTime camera resolution remains unchanged at 7 MP. We don’t recall hearing the term ‘iSight’ during the September 22 event, and it appears the iSight sub-branding has been dropped from Apple’s iPhone product specification pages. Regardless, the new CIS is reported to features “deeper pixels”, a feature we’re curious to investigate, and a new color filter. Mr. Schiller also mentioned the 12 MP cameras are more power efficient. Our initial speculation on this statement is iPhone 8's stacked chip camera ISPs might now be fabricated using TSMC's 28 nm line. Since Apple started using Sony stacked (Exmor RS) image sensors in 2013 (iPhone 5s) we have found iPhone’s camera ISPs fabricated with either 65 nm or 40 nm generation process technology. Sony has previously used TSMC 28 nm generation ISPs for its own IMX318, but we haven’t seen that in an Apple product yet. There is also the possibility the camera chip’s ISP is fabricated using FD-SOI. Recalling Junko Yoshida of EETimes’ 2016 article[1], Sony was rumored to be exploring FD-SOI for stacked imager ISPs. We’ll find out soon enough as our lab will soon cross-section the new chips.

The video performance is claimed to be the highest quality video capture available in a smartphone. The A11 also features an Apple-designed video encoder enabling 4K video at 60 fps and Slo-mo 1080p video at 240 fps. Augmented reality (AR) was prominently featured in the September 22nd announcement, and the iPhone 8 is claimed to be the first smartphone with substantial customization for AR. As mentioned in February [2], Tim Cook and Team Apple consider AR to be the next big thing and the camera modules are apparently individually calibrated with AR in mind.
 
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