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2.5 times is a LOT. Is that for a specific 3D application and if so which one? My own tests against what I use put the Quad Mac Pro only slightly faster than my Quad G5 - certainly nothing close to 2.5 times faster, more like 1.3 times faster. Am I overlooking something?

http://www.3dfluff.com/mash/cinebench/top.php

Cinema 4D - my current CB score is around 640 on my dual G5 2.5 - a MacPro 3Ghz gives a score of around 1612, hence 2.5x faster. :)

The Quad G5 roughly doubled my CB score to around 1200 from what I remember, which in itself made it viable as an upgrade machine, but I decided to wait for the next gen - now they are here, and new ones are iminent, I am best to wait a little longer I think.
 
February 20th? Can You Elaborate On Perhaps Why Then?

Well I definitely could use the 8 Cores right now for 3D rendering - the current crop of Quad 3Ghz run approx 2.5 times faster than my Dual 2.5 G5, but it doesn't make sense to buy until the range is updated, which according to a reliable source, could be as early as Feb 20th - so fingers crossed that IS the case! ;)
My bad for mis-reading Dual 2.5 as Quad 2.5. Sorry folks. :eek:

Without revealing your source, would you mind telling us a little more about why the 8 core may be announced February 20th? :)
 
My bad for mis-reading Dual 2.5 as Quad 2.5. Sorry folks. :eek:

Without revealing your source, would you mind telling us a little more about why the 8 core may be announced February 20th? :)

The person in question is a well respected, and well connected Mac seller - and this is simply based on his 'knowledge' - I guess he could be wrong of course, but it's as good a day as any - plus it is in fact a Tuesday! (I checked my Calendar), and I think since it looks like Leopard and a few other significant updates are expected in March/April, it would make sense to launch updated Macs earlier, so they can give all the hype to the new OS etc!?

:)
 
Think We Should Stay Here Until The Next 8 Core Mac Pro Only Thread Is Started

That February 20 Event thread is not necessarily for an 8 core Mac Pro Event. So I think we should stick with this one until a new purely 8 core MP thread is started on page one. :)
 
But I'm sorry to report, after receiving Toast 8 UB yesterday, that it has not been modified-improved to use more than about 2 cores on the Quad G5 - evidence developers don't want to bother going back to make significant changes to their PPC code now that Intel Macs are shipping. :(

I think we can plan on that from here on out... PPC Macs have been obsoleted.

Interesting to note that while Toast 8 supports Blu-ray Disc it DOES NOT support HD DVD. Looks like someone at Sonic decided HD-DVD is going to lose the format wars so why bother?

Sonic is backing Blu-Ray, not HD-DVD, they have since the beginning... If you know your HD-DVD disc spec layout and your way around XML though, you don't need special software to make HD-DVD titles. You can export HD-DVD compliant MPEG2, VC1 and H264 right out of FCP and Compressor right now, build your menus in Photoshop, Motion, etc.. Assemble them with XML. Not to drag the discussion OT, but this is why HD-DVD is catching on in the adult film industry. It's cheap and easy to produce HD-DVD discs.. Not only that, but standard DVD media can serve up HD content on all HD-DVD players as long as the file is encoded to remain within the allotted bitrate. I can shoot 1080p24 with a sub $10K camera setup like the HVX200 and deliver 20 minutes of 1080p video on a standard DVD that plays at 1080p in all HD-DVD players (well, 1080i in currently shipping models). No need for an HD-DVD writer, no need for new, special software... Until HD-DVD writers hit main channels, people will still have to take longer features to the replication houses on tape or hard drive (maybe on BluRay? - haha)...
 
The person in question is a well respected, and well connected Mac seller - and this is simply based on his 'knowledge' - I guess he could be wrong of course, but it's as good a day as any - plus it is in fact a Tuesday! (I checked my Calendar), and I think since it looks like Leopard and a few other significant updates are expected in March/April, it would make sense to launch updated Macs earlier, so they can give all the hype to the new OS etc!?

8 Core MacPro on 2/20??? Hmmm... could happen. Wouldn't surprise me either way. Actually, yes it would surprise me if they ship them before mid April. Why? At this point, Apple may as well wait for Stoakley. I'll wait before I buy... I can hold off a bit longer and I don't truly need the 8-core systems until my RED ONE camera ships. I can still get cheaper gains on my 3D rendering by adding more low-cost render nodes.
 
AV Made The RED ONE Waiting List in 2007 ?

8 Core MacPro on 2/20??? Hmmm... could happen. Wouldn't surprise me either way. Actually, yes it would surprise me if they ship them before mid April. Why? At this point, Apple may as well wait for Stoakley. I'll wait before I buy... I can hold off a bit longer and I don't truly need the 8-core systems until my RED ONE camera ships. I can still get cheaper gains on my 3D rendering by adding more low-cost render nodes.
Long time no read. Welcome back AV. I, like you, will wait for Stoakley-Seaburg (SS) as well. I agree February 20 shipping is highly unlikely and peg NAB April 16 as the real reveal date. Anytime sooner would be a most pleasant surprise unless they try to ship it without SS to begin with.

You got early on the RED ONE waiting list? I heard they are sold out for 2007.

What will RED ONE do for you that other HD options won't and how? How much did it really cost you for that camera including a set of lenses? Less than $20K? :eek:
 
I can hold off a bit longer and I don't truly need the 8-core systems until my RED ONE camera ships.

All I can say is:

I burn, I pine, I perish.

and...

Congratulations on the (soon to be) camera. Let us all know how that thing performs and, by all means, share some samples!
 
Thanks for finally posting. Sometimes it feels like there are only a half dozen of us who know we need 8 cores. So every new voice helps the morale.

I am in strong agreement with you MM that 8 cores will be needed by a surprisingly large cross-section of users. They simply do not post to rumor sites.

I do believe general consumers will consider 4 cores minimum a year from now and pros will consider 8 cores "baseline".

But for today the (small but aware) entire world is waiting for APPLE to deliver 8 cores since the Win-tel world is far from adopting multi-core as a general consumer need. Vista is unlikely to change that trend either.

Rocketman
 
Long time no read. Welcome back AV.

You got early on the RED ONE waiting list? I heard they are sold out for 2007.

What will RED ONE do for you that other options won't? How much did it really cost you for that camera including a set of lenses? Less than $20K? :eek:

The camera body is $18k. The cheapest lens is $5k more, but is compatible with existing lenses.

If the rumors are true of the "next RAID" having 6 link FC and the RED having dual link FC, it will be possible in principal to have a 2 (+) camera shoot! I wonder if the camera can act as the computer directly to the RAID?

Rocketman
 
You got early on the RED ONE waiting list? I heard they are sold out for 2007.

What will RED ONE do for you that other HD options won't and how? How much did it really cost you for that camera including a set of lenses? Less than $20K? :eek:


I'm not real early on the RED list, but I still think I should have the camera this year. As of right now, there is no hard data on how many cameras will be produced and shipped this year. They will be taking more reservations at NAB (presumably), but other than that it's pretty much closed off until the camera ships in quantity. I'm working with a few other RED reservation holders in my area on some things right now.

So far, we know the camera body is $17.5K, RED DRIVE or the hard-drive based storage magazines for it are $1K (or less) for 320GB (think about 200 minutes of 4K RAW @ 24p). It's an s35mm sensor as this is a digital cinema camera. Uses standard PL mount lenses and will also have lens mounts (not just adapters, but full mounts to replace the PL mount) available for Nikon and B4 when the camera ships. There is a FLASH module for recording too, but details aren't available yet - we're supposed to get all the final accessory details and pricing in March. The 18-85mm RED zoom lens is $9995. Yes, seems expensive, but this is the lens that woudl be used with such a camera 99% of the time for most any type of work. Comparable lenses from Zeiss or Cooke run upwards of $60K so this lens, like the camera, is a bargain. The only two other cameras out there shooting video close in spec to RED is the Panavision Genesis and the ARRI D20. The D20 isn't even full 4K res... RED will shoot 2K up to 120fps, the others don't. Both of those digital cinema cameras are over 10X the price of RED -- as in the body alone is over $175K.

We have been using the HVX200 cameras here and renting larger cameras (Varicam, F900 / CineAlta) when needed. The HVX200s pretty much sit on the shelf these days as they don't have the lens options or the picture quality needed for true HD delivery. So we need to buy new cameras... Varicam uses B4 HD broadcast lenses or s16 lenses with an adapter and only shoots 720p to encode at 960x720 4:2:2 DVCPROHD and used bodies with an 8x Fujinon HD lens run about $37K. CineAlta F950U is about $120K for the body alone, used F900 bodies can be had for about $60K if you look hard enough.

Anyway, like I said, we need new cameras and our budget puts us in the used Varicam/CineAlta range. But RED offers so much more and fits in the low end of that price bracked... More in line with Sony F350 XDCAM units, which just shoot XDCAM MPEG2 <cough, higher bitrage HDV> to XD media. RED offers shooting up to uncompressed 4:4:4 4K s35mm from 1 to 60fps rampable or up to 2K/s16 4:4:4 from 1 to 120fps. Shooting 4K RAW still 4:4:4 is very close to uncompressed in quality, no macroblocking of any type. The resolution is essentially equal to that of 35mm film or quad-HD 4K on RED is 4096x2304.. In uncompressed s35mm mode you get full 2540p up to 60fps!

I've been expanding my company and offerings over the past year or so and we're branching more into film and fx work, so the camera is a perfect fit. And never again will I have to apologize for the quality of my video on a commercial shoot.

Our RED budget is still a floating target, but we're looking at about $47K. Which includes the RED body, 18-85mm zoom lens, 300mm prime lens, Nikon mount (for our Nikkor lens collection), 2 x RED DRIVEs, two new 8-core Mac Pro systems, batteries, cables, etc.. We will also have to beef up the SAN and add more RAID nodes and backup infrastructure. Current DVCPROHD / HDCAM workflows don't demand as much drive space as 2K/4K RAW. And we don't know pricing yet on other accessories like EVF, RED RAIL, RED CAGE, or the FLASH memory specifics. But at this point, it's a reservation # and refundable deposit, not an actual camera purchase.

One of the local RED reservation holders I'm working with is stepping up from a JVC HD10 with Letus35a adapter and a bunch of Nikon lenses. He's buying the RED One, the Nikon mount and a RED DRIVE for starters and that fits just about $21K after tax. IMO, if you need a cinema style camera that will run circles around anything else in just about any price range, this is it. ...It's not a camera for home movies, soccer-dads, or those doing ENG run-n-gun type work. It's a digital cinema camera.
 
The camera body is $18k. The cheapest lens is $5k more, but is compatible with existing lenses.

Economics of scale... You don't use a Mac mini for compositing film projects in Shake. You don't shoot a TV commercial with a $125K budget with a Sony HandyCam. RED is insanely cheap for what it does. It's closest competitor is the Panavision Genesis at over 10X the price. RED's cheapest lens, the 300mm prime tele is $4,995. The 300mm prime from Cooke is $14K go figure that one out.

If the rumors are true of the "next RAID" having 6 link FC and the RED having dual link FC, it will be possible in principal to have a 2 (+) camera shoot! I wonder if the camera can act as the computer directly to the RAID?

Apple's next RAID should only have dual FC, but they need to upgrade the FC connectors from 2Gbps to 4Gbps and get caught up with the rest of the industry. 10G fiber and copper solutions are already out too... They better have a CAT6-E compliant 10GoC connector on the back of the next XServe RAID or I'll buy something else. The recent photos / concept that was leaked has to be a hoax or a complete joke. No way would Apple release a revamped XServe RAID and not include faster connections. SATA connectors on the drive sleds are a given... They would have to update current XsR's to eSATA backplanes and sleds no matter what since pATA drives will be all but extinct by the end of this year.

As for RED it has a proprietary RAW data port (essentially eSATA w/power and a few other goodies) for recording direct to RED DRIVE. There is a modular output port on the camera as well which can be swapped to hold the FLASH module, an "optical port" or other future connectivity option. The "optical port" is still in development and may turn out to not be optical, but they're planning on it being 10Gbps.... I'm expecting it to be 10GoC ethernet... Makes sense and would support economical CAT6-E cable up to 500ft. without switches or repeaters. Other than RED DRIVE or RED FLASH, the camera is only confirmed to record direct to the also in development RED RAID. But no one knows exactly what RED RAID is... If it's software, hardware and software or a dedicated RAID system. Recording to RED DRIVE is limited to 4K up to 30fps and 2K up to 60fps. RED FLASH at this time has the same limits, but since the module is interchangeable, eventually we can have record devices that handle the full 4K @ 60fps or 2K @ 120fps right there on-camera as storage capacities and speeds increase.

We're shooting a grindhouse trailer this weekend... Using the HVX200 with M2 35mm adapter and Nikkor lenses. Lots of green screen work too... Sure wish RED was already here....
 
Have You Looked At BlackMagicDesign's HDMI i/o PCIe Card 4 Native HD From HDMI Out

So far, we know the camera body is $17.5K, RED DRIVE or the hard-drive based storage magazines for it are $1K (or less) for 320GB (think about 200 minutes of 4K RAW @ 24p).

It's not a camera for home movies, soccer-dads, or those doing ENG run-n-gun type work. It's a digital cinema camera.
Thank you for writing so much in depth about the RED ONE AV. $1k (or less) for a 320GB 200 minute 4k RAW @ 24p mobile HD sounds like a bargain as well. So I'm interested to know if this solution could be mixed with the consumer cameras with HDMI outputs - such as the Sony HC-3 - and the $249 Blackmagic Design Intensity PCIe HDMI i/o card on our 8 core Mac Pros - particularly the codec used to reduce your "4k RAW" stream down to little more than 100GB an hour. That seems very efficient to me for native HD footage. No?

Anyway, I'm looking at HDTV production from the budget end of the spectrum and wonder if you have any thoughts about how this Blackmagic Design card and their upcoming On-Air 3.0 three camera live switching software package (included after NAB) might have a place as well in our 8 core Mac Pros.
 
well there could be a possible event on february 20th so maybe they will release it then, hopefully with a new lineup of macbook pros
 
Thank you for writing so much in depth about the RED ONE AV. $1k (or less) for a 320GB 200 minute 4k RAW @ 24p mobile HD sounds like a bargain as well. So I'm interested to know if this solution could be mixed with the consumer cameras with HDMI outputs - such as the Sony HC-3 - and the $249 Blackmagic Design Intensity PCIe HDMI i/o card on our 8 core Mac Pros - particularly the codec used to reduce your "4k RAW" stream down to little more than 100GB an hour. That seems very efficient to me for native HD footage. No?

4K RAW within the REDCODE RAW codec is roughly 27MB/s. The codec is proprietary and ship with the RED One camera and companion software REDCINE. REDCINE is a bridge between REDCODE RAW (which is an acquisition format, not an editing format) and other formats, one of which is REDCODE RGB. As of right now, we don't know what the data rates are for REDCODE RGB, but we've been assured it won't be the full 323MB/s for uncompressed 4K. :)

As for the BlackMagic / Decklink cards... I prefer the AJA cards. A bit more expensive, but much nicer output. However, since I don't intend to capture direct from our RED One via SDI (which the SDI can only handle 2K 2048x1080 anyway). But rather record 4K RAW to the RED DRIVE and then export to the system. We won't be exporting to an HD deck via SDI either... Everything is going tapeless in a hurry and at this point, to invest in expensive pro format decks for HDCAM, DVCPROHD, etc.. would be foolish. Many broadcasters are now starting to take submissions on hard drive or via FTP/direct upload. More options are sure to present themselves as the whole HD-DVD and BluRay format "war" get sorted a bit better. To handle 4K over SDI at 4:4:4, it requires a quad-link arrangement -- like Sony has been using for their 4K digital projector system.

The RED One camera can be used as an HD Camera, but more directly it's still a digital cinema camera. It's intended to compete with (and hopefully even replace in many situations) traditional 35mm cinema systems. The intermediary software, REDCINE allows for taking the acquisition format of REDCODE RAW (and the camera can shoot in various formats to match lens options and lower HD formats) and transcode it to other formats and scale with oversampling to the desired format resolution. So you can shoot everything in 4K RAW with direct transition to HDCAM SR 1080p if you want.

Anyway, I'm looking at HDTV production from the budget end of the spectrum and wonder if you have any thoughts about how this Blackmagic Design card and their upcoming On-Air 3.0 three camera live switching software package (included after NAB) might have a place as well in our 8 core Mac Pros.

I haven't really looked at the Blackmagic stuff in a while. I have the AJA KONA 3 in a G5 Quad, but it sits unused except for the rare occasion we rent a camera that warrants direct connect via SDI. Once we have our RED, this will probably never happen again...

FWIW, the RED Team prefers AJA cards too... They've been using AJA for direct output of RED footage over SDI in 2K or 1080p format to demonstration monitors / projectors.

For HD production on a budget, I suppose it all depends what you're trying to produce. If you need a camera system, RED is a great potential choice even if you're just delivery 1080i as 4K will future-proof your work and the cost isn't really any higher than most good broadcast 1080 cameras, but your production approach may not work well with a cinema-style camera. In many situations, broadcast oriented cameras may still be the best way to go, even though they offer lower resolution and highly compressed footage by comparison. As for matching with cameras like the HC3, I don't know... I suppose you could really crap-out your RED footage to make it look comparable to the HC3. ..I have an HC3, BTW, for home movies and the like. I hate that camera... Terribly uncomfortable to hold and use (even for a palm-corder style). Picture is not bad for a small CMOS sensor (a bit noisy at times) and it's only HDV, but the ergonomics of the thing are just dreadful.
 
Apple's next RAID should only have dual FC, but they need to upgrade the FC connectors from 2Gbps to 4Gbps and get caught up with the rest of the industry. 10G fiber and copper solutions are already out too... They better have a CAT6-E compliant 10GoC connector on the back of the next XServe RAID or I'll buy something else.

As for RED it has a proprietary RAW data port (essentially eSATA w/power and a few other goodies) for recording direct to RED DRIVE.
We're shooting a grindhouse trailer this weekend... Using the HVX200 with M2 35mm adapter and Nikkor lenses. Lots of green screen work too... Sure wish RED was already here....

I really appreciated your post with your RED purchase and interface details. Your comment that the RED drive would record 200 minutes was a revelation to me and very exciting. That means my application (industrial testing) can be done with just the camera, the drive, ambient light, a lens adapter (we have a partner with lenses).

The really exciting thing about that is the budget is so small that way we can totally afford two cameras!

We typically have event times of under 2 minutes but we need maximal resolution and frame rates.

I was hoping for 4K at 120fps as an option for short durations, but I suppose I cannot have everything.

Thanks again for the valuable post.

Rocketman
 
well there could be a possible event on february 20th so maybe they will release it then, hopefully with a new lineup of macbook pros

Macbook Pro was updated in October... I doubt we'll see a new update this soon. Besides, there's no reason to update the MBP now since the next Intel mobile chipset and updated CPUs hae not arrived yet. All Apple can do with the MBP at this point is update the form factor (unlikely, can't make it smaller due to ventilation issues), update the LCD panel - possible, but I bet they wait until the next revision...

I'm guessing we'll see new MBPs at NAB or shortly after... By then we should have the i965MP chipset, updated Core 2 Duo CPUs and potentially a better GPU along with LED backlit screens and hopefully higher resolution options and maybe options for a BluRay drive. With the updated chipset (should be shipping to OEMs by end of March), we gain the ability to install *AND USE* more than 3GB of RAM.
 
45nm Quad Core Processor

Details of Penryn and first Intel 45nm Quad core processor have started to appear. Its going to be a multi-die packaging similar to Kentsfield/Clovertown. The cache size will be increased to 2x6MB.

"Intel claims the upcoming Penryn will fit 410 million transistors for the dual-core model, and 820 million transistors for the quad-core variants -- dual-core Conroe utilizes just 298 million transistors. Intel's 45nm SRAM shuttle chip announced last year had a little over 1 billion transistors and fit on a 119mm^2 package. However, the initial Penryn quad-core processors will use a multi-die packaging, so it's realistic to expect only 410 million transistors per die at launch."

Intel is using high-k dielectrics and metal gate transistors for the 45nm process which should further increase the speeds offered and decrease the TDP. How about a 3.5GHz 100W quad core CPU? :D

Penryn will also includes new SSE4 instructions that give double digit performance gains for Multimedia applications.

Penryn based quad core is suppose to be released in the 2nd half of 2007. I assume it will be timed around AMD's release of Barcelona - maybe July?

So are we all now going to extend our wait for a better quad core along with the Stoakley/Seaburg chipset? ;) If we wait till the end of 2007/early 2008 then we can even get a native quad core (single piece of silicon) with Nehalem, Intel's next generation micro-architecture. Maybe even with an integrated memory controller and CSI. ;)

Here is the NEED vs WANT decision again.:rolleyes:


Edit: See Intel's press release here.
 
I'll Buy The First 8 Core As Soon As It Ships

Details of Penryn and first Intel 45nm Quad core processor have started to appear. Its going to be a multi-die packaging similar to Kentsfield/Clovertown. The cache size will be increased to 2x6MB.

"Intel claims the upcoming Penryn will fit 410 million transistors for the dual-core model, and 820 million transistors for the quad-core variants -- dual-core Conroe utilizes just 298 million transistors. Intel's 45nm SRAM shuttle chip announced last year had a little over 1 billion transistors and fit on a 119mm^2 package. However, the initial Penryn quad-core processors will use a multi-die packaging, so it's realistic to expect only 410 million transistors per die at launch."

Intel is using high-k dielectrics and metal gate transistors for the 45nm process which should further increase the speeds offered and decrease the TDP. How about a 3.5GHz 100W quad core CPU? :D

Penryn will also includes new SSE4 instructions that give double digit performance gains for Multimedia applications.

Penryn based quad core is suppose to be released in the 2nd half of 2007. I assume it will be timed around AMD's release of Barcelona - maybe July?

So are we all now going to extend our wait for a better quad core along with the Stoakley/Seaburg chipset? ;) If we wait till the end of 2007/early 2008 then we can even get a native quad core (single piece of silicon) with Nehalem, Intel's next generation micro-architecture. Maybe even with an integrated memory controller and CSI. ;)

Here is the NEED vs WANT decision again.:rolleyes:

Edit: See Intel's press release here.
Thank you for that tech roadmap update. I know what you mean. But I for one cannot wait beyond when the first 8 core ships to buy one. I look forward to what comes out at year-end as well. But I am always bumping up against the problem of not enough cores. So I'll settle for the 2.66GHz Dual Clovertown as soon as it ships with Stoakley-Seaburg for the time being and embrace even faster-cooler when it's ready later.
 
So are we all now going to extend our wait for a better quad core along with the Stoakley/Seaburg chipset? ;) If we wait till the end of 2007/early 2008 then we can even get a native quad core (single piece of silicon) with Nehalem, Intel's next generation micro-architecture. Maybe even with an integrated memory controller and CSI. ;)

That's what I would like to wait for... :D Although, NEED is going to push me to buy before then I'm sure. :(

Knowning my luck, I'll have to buy in October and the unified Nehalem CPUs will ship at the end of November.... I just know it.
 
i'm having a real hard time not ordering a mac pro right now, but am kind of forcing myself to wait until feb20

i would love an 8-core for the same price or a 4-core model that gets cheaper

i do believe 8 cores will make this investment way more future proof as more and more applications will support more threads

i hope that the 8 core can replace three current machines: - a g5 imac 1,8ghz, a PentiumIV with win XP (mainly used for ripping burning cd/dvd) and my linux server/router

i was hoping to set up 1 x 500gb for os x, 1 x 500gb for win XP and 2 x 500gb as shared drives over the gigabit network to my family other macs and PC to store all movies/mp3/documents

anyone know if i can use my pioneer 111 DL burner and my samsung SH-d162c DVD-rom in the mac pro? both in XP and OS X?

how much of an impact on the system would using the mac pro as a router to the other macs and PC make? or the filesharing? lets say 3 other computers are surfing and using itunes/documents?

well here is hoping i can keep waiting, its getting harder every day :)
 
well here is hoping i can keep waiting, its getting harder every day :)

I know exactly what you mean - I have the funds for a MacPro now, and it [quad Xeon 3Ghz] is still a significant step up from the Dual G5 2.5, but if a higher spec quad, or an octo is only just weeks away, I have to resist, since the extra rendering speed is always needed! :D

Adam
 
Same deal here. I am very tempted to buy a MacPro today, I just need to hold myself back until the next rev comes out. And hopefully I will be able to :)
 
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