Adobe Acknowledges That Apple's Flash Prohibition Could Harm Business

[webman2k]

The only complaint on flash is cpu usage, other than that it's great!

Wouldn't you rather have a great stereo system built into your car, rather than have to bolt in a 3rd party unit after the fact? And what if the new wiring shorts out the speakers, or shorts out the electrical system because the voltage is all wrong.

OK - extreme analogy, but my point is...

It's not just that Flash is a CPU hog - I'm sure they could fix that in time. It's the fact that it's a third party plugin.

The HTML 5 spec is bringing many new technologies, eliminating the need for the browser to load external plugins to deliver dynamic content. Rendering inline in the browser increases performance and reliability on any platform.

Everyone seems to be screaming about how great flash is, and how it's supported everywhere else. Folks, it's not about whether or not Flash is "great" or even useful. It's about moving on with new technology.

Apple has never said that Flash "sucks". What they have said, is that it's inefficient - especially for a mobile device, which is 100% true. It'll slow down your device, and drain the battery. The truth is, there's really no "reason" for it anymore. The things you can do with HTML 5, css, ajax - What do you need Flash for?

The argument that we all need it because it's everywhere is just what Apple's trying to combat. The floppy drive was practically useless when Apple introduced the iMac without one - yet everyone was in shock. And look what happened. Shortly thereafter, other manufacturers started dropping them as well. Same thing happened with other PC interfaces.

Out with the old - in with the new. That's what this is about. Apple's using it's influence in the mobile computing market to progress technology. Whatever their real agenda is doesn't matter - they're making a difference, and have been for some time.

As time goes by, more and more site developers will drop flash in favor of more recent technology. Youtube and vimeo are already working on this. In a few short years, Flash as a dominant delivery mechanism for dynamic content will fade away, as will most 3rd party plugins for delivering content.

Have you guys seen this?
http://code.google.com/p/quake2-gwt-port/

No plugins, just native browser rendering. It's not just text and pictures anymore folks - time to get on the bandwagon.

 

[jragosta]

I had no problem without Flash on my iPhone but it would be a big mistake on Apple part if they do not support Flash on Mac.

Fortunately, no one has even suggested that Apple should drop Flash on the Mac.

Granted, it still overheats the system and sucks CPU cycles like there's no tomorrow, but it still works (sort of). it's just on the mobile platform that Flash is impossibly bad (which is probably why no one else uses it, either).

Why is Apple getting all the crap about not allowing Flash on their phone? Windows Mobile 7 won't, either. Android is STILL waiting for 10.1 - and even that is slow and limited from all reports.

 

[smithrh]

If HTML5 is better than Flash can do that's WONDERFUL. The problem is there is going to be so much downtime the way Steve is going about this. So much time when people cannot even see real websites that use Flash not just for ad but for all sorts of content even navigation. I cannot tell you how many times I went to find a restaurants phone number via the web and once I got into their website I couldn't even navigate to about them. Flash is widely implemented EVERYWHERE.

If Apple gave a damn about its customers, it would provide a SOLUTION RIGHT NOW. That solution would allow us access to Flash websites via an Apple method to play those. On the iPhone OS there is no viewing Flash websites. Flash is good enough for 98% of the web but not Steve Jobs.

The latest reports I read showed that both Flash and HTML5, when having access to h.264, had nearly IDENTICAL results. And HTML5 is a steep learning curve and the whole web already had Flash all over it. Yes, in the long run if HTML5 offers truly better performance, it will be better then... but what about all of the time between now and then??? Don't Apple product users deserve to be taken care of too? How many years will it take for the whole web to be converted? How many BILLIONS of dollars will entrepreneurs and small business owners have to pay to redevelop their websites?

Did you read anything I wrote?

Sigh.


OK, let's make things even more clear.


This battle is for the MOBILE space. If you absolutely require Flash for something, it's still there on you MacBook or iMac or what-have-you.


Jobs is - correctly, I think - using the marketplace strength and leadership of the iPhone/Touch/iPad to get rid of the Flash abomination.


I'll note here that I've been using Flash blockers on my PCs and Macs for a while now, and I haven't missed a whole lot. Sure, every now and then I have to click to see the Flash, but it's not all that often.


HTML5 has many of the capabilities of Flash _right_ _now_. Do you have an iPad or iPhone? There are plenty of ways around the Flash issue. I see plenty of graphically cool websites and video without Flash. I'm not really deprived by a lack of Flash - indeed, my CPUs and batteries thank me for blocking Flash routinely.


It won't be years - maybe a year.


Again, if Jobs compromises or lets up, then it WILL be many years.


Are you the type of person that likes to take band-aids off really slowly and really feel the burn?

 

[bks691]

It's to late adobe! Maybe a couple years ago you should of hired people that could have fixed your buggy, lagging software! Down with flash!!!!

 

[Scottsdale]

The problem is that somebody (Adobe) hasn't been doing a good job at keeping their technology in step with the times.

Look at it this way: HTML5... man, you can't deny it's pretty amazing. I mean it can do all the stuff Flash can do, and more.

Who made it?

Not Adobe.

And that's the problem. Adobe - if they were truly keeping up with the progress and innovation surrounding them - should have invented HTML5, patented it, locked it up into an authoring package and sold it to the masses.

But they didn't. They missed the freaking boat because all they're interested in is selling the same fluff with a new coat, thinking nobody will notice.

Read the SEC filing - they now realise that the reason nobody noticed is because they were too busy innovating while they sat on their backsides, probably asking themselves "Why the hell did we buy this crap?".

The point is... the technology behind the web needs something better than Flash. It may take months, years even, but eventually people will forget Flash even existed, and get on with their lives. $699 richer. And at least HTML5 is here, now.

Again, this plan does NOT include an immediate solution to ALL of the Internet that has Flash all over it. Until Jobs comes up with a plan that allows Apple product users to view the entire Internet *WITHOUT PAYING EXTRA, Jobs doesn't give a damn about the customer but only the AAPL shareholder.

 

[recif2000]

okay let's set the record straight.
Flash is the worst piece of technology which currently exist. Have you ever tried to search for "bug adobe flash" "cpu adobe flash" on google.
I believe adobe has been unable to maintain the quality of the flash framework since they acquired it from macromedia. I would also like to state that the problem is not solely a mac issue but that it is also well present on the PC platform.

The problem is so bad on my computer (compaq laptop xp 2800 1,2 G ram) that I actually planned to upgraded just for the sake of making Flash usable once again.

You have to look at the current environment. How many mobile phone operating systems actually use a fully operational Flash Framework? apparently, it is just the Pre. Others just support a Lite Framework.

Seeing how Flash is perfoming on my computer, I can't even envision what would happen on my Iphone. Personally, I think Steve Jobs' claim regarding Adobe lack of willingness to improve their platform is probably not far from the truth.

I think Adobe has been able to make enough money selling its buggy platform to global website like Youtube and that time has come for a better & open standard. While the strategy employed by Apple may seem rather brutal with regards to Adobe, I believe it is the only way to move forward which will lead us to embrace a new internet revolution: HTML 5

 

[rpaloalto]

Look, while flash is todays standard and will be for some time. Adobe has had plenty of chances to make it much better.
Their are new and better options on the horizon. They just need to be accepted and integrated in to the mainstream.
The choices that Apple has made regarding their stance on weather they use flash or not is their business. Steve jobs hates flash. He wants to see it replaced ASAP. And thats exactly what their doing. Buy not allowing it on their iphone and ipads.
Sure their probably a lot of people who wont buy the ipad or iphone because of the exclusion of flash. But how many companies can you name that are willing to loose sales over something the want or believe in. Kudos to Apple for being selfish and stubborn. If you don't like their choices you don't have to buy their stuff.

 

[breatheasy]

I agree that it's a harsh move by apple, but to be fair adobe have nobody to blame but themselves. The performance of flash on anything other than Windows is really poor, I use ubuntu and the flash adobe is just as bad(if not worse) as it is on OS X.

 

[ten-oak-druid]

Citigroup Says iPhone and iPod Checks Indicates Better-Than-Expected Q2 Results (AAPL)
Written on Fri, 04/09/2010 - 07:46
By Chris Brian
http://www.mysmartrend.com/news-bri...hecks-indicates-better-expected-q2-results-aa

"...

Gardner went on to say that Jobs did however, provide a key update on iPhone and iPod checks, implying potential EPS of approximately $2.75 - $2.90, well above consensus estimates of $2.40.

Jobs said the iPhone has sold "over 50 million iPhones to date," which implies 7 - 8 million iPhone shipments during the March quarter, well above Citi's estimate of 6.0 million and consensus estimates of 6.8 million. According to Citigroup's model, every 1 million iPhone shipments suggest EPS adds of $0.28 (~12%) to fiscal second-quarter results.

Jobs also reported cumulative Touch shipments of 35 million, which indicates that March quarter units are also tracking ahead of their 4.5 million estimate, which Citi says may lead to better ASPs and margins.

..."

Citi targets the stock at $300 a share too.

 

[Salacion]

Steve Jobs were totally right that they were lazy in fixing their flash plug-in issues.

I wasn't aware that multiple Steve Jobs existed.

 

[John.B]

I had no problem without Flash on my iPhone but it would be a big mistake on Apple part if they do not support Flash on Mac.

Red herring.

Nobody is saying that, it's just an excuse to kick the hysterical reactions up a notch or two.

Besides, Flash on the Mac is supported by Adobe (and frankly, pretty poorly at that).

 

[inlovewithi]

The only reason Flash seems like a resource hog is because we're running it on a Mac. My octo-core Mac Pro with 18 gigs of RAM can't handle even the simplest flash games......... Meanwhile my 5 year old HP laptop, running Windows XP does just fine.

This tells me that it's Apple that is lazy and unwilling to fix problems on their end which cause Flash to crash systems.

As a user I can care less if Flash isn't real code. I just want the web to work properly on my computer and other devices. As it now stands I can't access certain websites because Apple won't allow it, even though they say I have the entire web in my pocket

This post somehow explains the situation perfectly, as to the real problem.

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

Must read!

http://theflashblog.com/

 

[lilo777]

This Apple's action has nothing (or very little) to do with Adobe specifically. Apple is trying to prohibit well established software design techniques used for multi-platform development (like Qt framework). The move has no precedents in software design history. I believe that Apple is trying to leverage their dominance in App market place by making it more difficult for companies to develop applications for multiple mobile platforms simultaneously. Aside from the potential danger of Antitrust Action from FTC, this move is inherently self-defeating. I happened to Apple before and will happen again. Android app count will exceed Apple's in a few months. The developers will then have a choice of a) using cross-platform developing tools for building apps for multiple platforms (bigger market than iPhone) or b) sticking with Apple. The answer seems quite obvious. They can do both as well but they will have to give a priority to bigger market.

 

[uber_nerd]

I completely agree with you. Jobs doesn't like Adobe, and that's the whole basis for this nonsense. Jobs is single-handedly making the web standard "Flash" obsolete... and it's sick. Too many people spent years learning Flash, and 98% of the web devices were capable of running Flash a year ago. Jobs and his 1/10th of 1% share for the iPad/iPhone OS are going to destroy a standard. We are going to be stuck with Flash websites for a long long time. It would be much better if Apple offered a solution right now that can read Flash sites if it doesn't want to work with Adobe. This is madness.

Flash is NOT a web standard. It is a proprietary browser pluggin that most of the internet uses. Only Adobe can create a pluggins for given browsers or platforms. You can only use Adobe products to create flash content.

With an open standard anyone can implement the standard on their browser/platform and anyone can create content for the standard.

This is an absolutely key distinction. I even recall 10 years ago a professor warned against developing in flash for this very reason! For this reason I have always avoided flash like the plague. The writing has been on the wall since day one. While the fight has taken a nasty turn it actually is in future users interests.

I am sorry that the end result is you can't play farmville on your iphone/itouch/ipad.

If all this disturbs you too much then there is the JooJoo which does play flash, numerous android phones and the elusive microsoft courier.

 

[J Radical]

SEVERAL major blows to Adobe's Flash player were made yesterday. And they're VERY serious to the future of Flash: Webkit 2, iAd, the iPad, and pushing the HTML5 standard. These are going to marginalize Flash, in my opinion, in a shockingly short amount of time. And keep in mind my statements are about how each technology and company is positioned for the FUTURE, not necessarily the present.

First, a couple of obvious points: Flash is extremely popular, but that is primarily because it is required to deliver both advertising and video content. You don't see a lot of mainstream web sites using Flash as the primary method of delivering their content outside of video or advertising.

So Apple is pushing the HTML5 standard into maturity. WebKit 2 is a huge boost to that on all platforms. If you actually look at how many browsers use Webkit, it's NEARLY ALL OF THEM, with the exception of IE and Firefox. Firefox plays decently with HTML5, but will always be getting better. IE ... well, we'll see but nobody really cares anyway. I almost pull for the explorer team because they're an underdog now.

From Apple's perspective, the WebKit 2 announcement means they are devoting resources to optimize the web experience around open standards instead of Flash. Why optimize for a proprietary standard when you can make everything on the web work quickly by making HTML5 work quickly? It's an obvious move, really. And they have partners in this endeavor with Google's Chrome and Mozilla's Firefox.

The writing is on the wall. And it's funny to say in some respects, because Flash is so popular right now. But it will happen. Flash will be marginalized. I lament this a bit. The Flash IDE isn't that bad. Flash is actually a very pleasant framework to build applications for. But when Apple puts their brains and marketing muscle behind something you have to take notice. It's obvious Adobe will.

I wonder if this will sour Adobe's creative suite plans for the Apple platform?

This is hilarious.

"NEARLY ALL OF THEM" = less than 10%

I have no love for Flash, and I think everyone agrees HTML5 is a better format for the future, but Apple's tyrannical attitude towards adobe is getting out of hand.

 

[Scottsdale]

Did you read anything I wrote?

Sigh.


OK, let's make things even more clear.


This battle is for the MOBILE space. If you absolutely require Flash for something, it's still there on you MacBook or iMac or what-have-you.


Jobs is - correctly, I think - using the marketplace strength and leadership of the iPhone/Touch/iPad to get rid of the Flash abomination.


I'll note here that I've been using Flash blockers on my PCs and Macs for a while now, and I haven't missed a whole lot. Sure, every now and then I have to click to see the Flash, but it's not all that often.


HTML5 has many of the capabilities of Flash _right_ _now_. Do you have an iPad or iPhone? There are plenty of ways around the Flash issue. I see plenty of graphically cool websites and video without Flash. I'm not really deprived by a lack of Flash - indeed, my CPUs and batteries thank me for blocking Flash routinely.


It won't be years - maybe a year.


Again, if Jobs compromises or lets up, then it WILL be many years.


Are you the type of person that likes to take band-aids off really slowly and really feel the burn?

You are saying Flash is an abomination, and that's not fact but opinion. Adobe has proven that with the same access to the same resources as HTML5, its Flash performs the same, ON THE INTERNET.

I agree Jobs is positioning and leveraging his Internet power, and it's great for the shareholder... but look at why it's great... he makes people pay for every bit of content on the iPad/iPhone OS. Most of this "paid" content can be seen for free within a Flash enabled device via ad paid content.

YES, IT WILL BE MANY YEARS... maybe even a decade before the entire Internet is converted. I am a consultant, and I don't know how many small businesses, entrepreneurs, and even medium sized businesses that aren't going to change their websites just for Apple. All of these Flash enabled websites will remain there. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. So when I have my iPhone or iPad out and I see a Flash site I cannot see, I have to go get a REAL Internet capable device that can view those sites.

 

[Amnak]

Wow Apples good at killing things they don't believe in. How long before flash dies any guesses ? ... You should read the crazy comments on engadget.

 

[ksgant]

I have no problem with this. Adobe is a company of bloat. Their flash player is full of bloat that sucks CPU big time. Their software is full of bloat (seriously, their latest Photoshop is like a 400 pound sumo wrestler at a buffet) and it's about time they wake up and start coding like they used to do.

Also, why does everyone want flash anyway? Adobe controls it. With all the people crying about how much Apple controls things, why no nerd rage over
Adobe and flash? HTML5 at least is an open standard, yes? One company doesn't own it. Right?

 

[Rocketman]

There are a couple of interesting sub-layers to this controversy.

Besides that fact and presuming Flash is indeed a resource and memory hog, one would generally think that would be the "problem of the end user". But this is what differentiates Apple from many other product vendors. They take responsibility for the user experience and as such address these issues and expend "political capital" on controversies like this to propagate a better user experience forward to a wider range of devices now and in the future. That said.

Apple also releases its products first in the USA, and only then exports to other countries, so the product design is subject to US laws and standards on some of these issues. If the device were released from EU, there are provisions that prevent some of the tactics Apple uses. Despite the fact the devices are USA objects imported to EU plenty of people try to get EU rules applied to the products, albiet with varying degrees of success, as compared to EU centric devices.

When you get right down to it this whole discussion is about inertia from the Wintel world, which Apple is bypassing with a "greenfield" product. A product that has some of the features and capabilities of PC's, but done in a way that is mostly new.

So let's call Flash an example of a growing pain and look forward to the day the noise dies down.

Rocketman

 

[irun5k]

I'm gonna laugh my @ss off if Adobe goes down for this and Apple ends up consuming Adobe...

Yes, it will be really funny when many of the average, everyday people who work at Adobe lose their jobs and are unable to find work in this economy. Really friggin hilarious.

 

[John.B]

The only reason Flash seems like a resource hog is because we're running it on a Mac. My octo-core Mac Pro with 18 gigs of RAM can't handle even the simplest flash games......... Meanwhile my 5 year old HP laptop, running Windows XP does just fine.

This tells me that it's Apple that is lazy and unwilling to fix problems on their end which cause Flash to crash systems.

As a user I can care less if Flash isn't real code. I just want the web to work properly on my computer and other devices. As it now stands I can't access certain websites because Apple won't allow it, even though they say I have the entire web in my pocket

Apple didn't write Flash, Adobe did. The blame likes squarely with Adobe.

OBTW, what other smartphone do you know of that supports the full version of Flash?

(Crickets chirping)

 

[MacLawyer]

Remember when Adobe announced they and Apple were working closely together to bring Flash to the iPhone? This was right after the iPhone was introduced. I am guessing battery life was the issue and Adobe and Apple couldn't figure out a way around it.

 

[smetvid]

Some of you people really make me sick. Adobe is a huge honest company that employs thousands of people all over the world. Sure maybe they make mistakes and make some pretty bad software but they have never tried to dupe anybody or steal money from anybody. Some of you talk about Adobe as if they were Enron just because you happen to not like one of their products. Grow up.

Some of you would rather have the economy dive into another recession with the amount of people that could be laid off if Adobe went under. I'm not just talking Adobe employs but the ripple effect it will have in the entire design industry. There are tens of thousands of Flash designers alone that will be out of a job. Not to mention the amount of local jobs around Adobe that the current Adobe employs use every day such as food and gas.

Instead of shooting off your mouths think about what you are wishing for and hope Karma doesn't deliver the same right back you.

How sick and twisted are some of you to want to see that many people loose their jobs just so you can get your rocks off on a BS company feud?

I thought Apple users were supposed to be so liberal and open minded. Wishing the loss of well over 100,00 jobs doesn't sound very open minded to me. If you don't like Adobe you don't have to use them. Nobody forces anybody to use Adobe software. It's not like it is an OS or anything that you have to use.

I love Apple computers but I'm getting so sick and tired of all the hatred in the world. PC forums have morons bashing Apple and Mac forums have morons bashing PC and pretty much everybody else. Whatever happened to people just enjoying the tools they have and not being bothered with the tools they have no need for. How they heck did computers become like Politics where the masses become polarized?

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

Quote from http://theflashblog.com

By now you have surely heard about the new iPhone 4.0 SDK language that appears to make creating applications in any non-Apple-approved languages a violation of terms. Obviously Adobe is looking into this wording carefully so I will not comment any further until there is an official conclusion.

What is clear is that Apple has timed this purposely to hurt sales of CS5. This has nothing to do whatsoever with bringing the Flash player to Apple’s devices. That is a separate discussion entirely. What they are saying is that they won’t allow applications onto their marketplace solely because of what language was originally used to create them. This is a frightening move that has no rational defense other than wanting tyrannical control over developers and more importantly, wanting to use developers as pawns in their crusade against Adobe. This does not just affect Adobe but also other technologies like Unity3D.

I am positive that there are a large number of Apple employees that strongly disagree with this latest move. Any real developer would not in good conscience be able to support this. The trouble is that we will never hear their discontent because Apple employees are forbidden from blogging, posting to social networks, or other things that we at companies with an open culture take for granted.

Adobe and Apple has had a long relationship and each has helped the other get where they are today. The fact that Apple would make such a hostile and despicable move like this clearly shows the difference between our two companies. All we want is to provide creative professionals an avenue to deploy their work to as many devices as possible. We are not looking to kill anything or anyone. This would be like us putting something in our SDK to make it impossible for 3rd-party editors like FDT to work with our platform. I can tell you that we wouldn’t even think or consider something like that.

Many of Adobe’s supporters have mentioned that we should discontinue the Creative Suite products on OS X as a form of retaliation. Again, this is something that Adobe would never consider in a million years. We are not looking to abuse our loyal users and make them pawns for the sake of trying to hurt another company. What is clear is that Apple most definitely would do that sort of thing as is evidenced by their recent behavior.

Personally I will not be giving Apple another cent of my money until there is a leadership change over there. I’ve already moved most of my book, music, and video purchases to Amazon and I will continue to look elsewhere. Now, I want to be clear that I am not suggesting you do the same and I’m also not trying to organize some kind of boycott. Me deciding not to give money to Apple is not going to do anything to their bottom line. But this is equivalent to me walking into Macy’s to buy a new wallet and the salesperson spits in my face. Chances are I won’t be buying my wallets at Macy’s anymore, no matter how much I like them.

Now let me put aside my role as an official representative of Adobe for a moment as I would look to make it clear what is going through my mind at the moment. Go screw yourself Apple.

This isn't official Adobe's response but its pretty damn close!

And I agree with them 100%