Adobe CEO Responds to Steve Jobs' 'Thoughts on Flash'

[Earendil]

I just wish one of these guys would post proof of what they write about. Jobs should show an iPad or iPhone running flash against one that is running HTML5 video or something and the drain on battery life.

That would end this very quick

What constitutes proof? It's not as if he isn't citing sources, Jobs IS the source. He runs, in minute detail I might add, the only company that cares to do specialized tests for just this sort of thing. There are only 3 choices:
1. Jobs is telling the truth
2. Jobs is lying
3. Jobs doesn't know what he's talking about.

I think we can discount #3 for the reasons noted above. This leaves us with either believing him or not. So if you believe he's lying about this, than how is posting a video going to be any more proof? It could be doctored, the tests could be rigged, etc etc.

What Jobs wrote may not match everyone experience, but it certainly matches my own. Jobs letter also came across as a "This is why we aren't doing X", and he gave solid reasons. So far all I've seen Adobe do is tell Apple that they're wrong. This is not how you win an argument. I think at this point it rests on Adobe's shoulders to prove Apple wrong.

That said, wtf is with the Adobe CEO not understanding/mixing up the definition of an "Open Standard" ? Was he inferentially trying to mislead those that don't know better, or is he that clueless? In either case, it makes me not trust him even more

 

[Veri]

Show me a third party engine that runs Flash binaries that is fully open source where Adobe doesn't calm any loss of IP and then it is an open standard!

(flvstreamer - streaming client only)
Gnash
(Scaleform - but not open source)
Swfdec

And now, for third party Cocoa implementations which aren't a decade out of date...

 

[NT1440]

I was expecting to see teh intarweb on my iPhone. Not teh intarweb Steve wants me to see.

Yea, darn them and blacklisted everything except apple approved websites on mobile safari!

Wait a sec....

 

[southcbishop]

Would it? Surely people use the computer as a tool to do the work, and if Adobe stopped developing for Apple, people would just migrate to Windows? I mean, what'd be the alternative, if you're a Photoshop shop?

Truth is, most shops would need quite a bit of time and money to purchase all new Windows machines, then replace all the software that they've bought for their macs (Not just Adobe either - ALL of the software, some of which isn't available on Windows). Macs can open most windows file formats, but windows machines can rarely open mac file formats, so there would be a ridiculous amount of work put into file conversion as well.

What do you think would really be the outcome? I think that most creative firms would purchase the most up to date, and stable Adobe software they could (which should last them a few years) and start searching for alternatives to Adobe products. Now wouldn't that be a big win for Adobe's bottom line

 

[giosaccone]

Go Steve Go Steve! Adobe didn't responds really to Apple

 

[BaldiMac]

I was expecting to see teh intarweb on my iPhone. Not teh intarweb Steve wants me to see.

So, you'd prefer the intarweb that Shantanu wants you to see over the one that Steve (and the rest of the people responsible for the creation on web standards) wants you to see.

 

[dyler]

There is no phone that runs flash

No, you get no say because you didn't buy the phone you wanted.

There are other electronics makers out there. Why didn't you buy something that does what you want? Why is it Steve Job's fault that you made a bad choice?

You got "no say" when you bought your iPhone? Someone held a gun to your head and told you to put the Android phone down and walk away?

There is no cell phone that runs flash, Adobe said it would come out in first half of 09, then second half of 09, then first half of 2010, now second half of 2010, I still don't think we will ever see it.

 

[Small White Car]

I may speak as loudly as I am able, and Apple (or anyone) can and will listen to me if I speak loudly enough. I can't begin to comprehend the learned helplessness that is putting up with what's on offer in the world and not clamouring for improvement everywhere.

I consider the lack of Flash a feature.

It's one of the reasons I bought the iPhone...I knew I'd be safe here.

You have other phone options to go to in order to get what you want. Why are you trying to ruin what I have?

I made a choice for what I like, but rather than do the same and pick something you like, you'd rather ruin my experience instead.

I'm not being helpless. I'm actively arguing for what I want.

 

[idsoftware]

My thoughts

Wow, what a public mess!!

Two CEOs of such reputable and large organizations shouldn't get going at it like elementary school kids.

I Refuse to use FLASH.... I rather Prefer the HTML 5 as Standard.

You have to options jump into the new standard or stay there as and old CRAP!!!!

 

[JonB3Z]

He said it is an open standard. Can someone guide me to the site where I can download the source code for flash?

I would like to create a fork so we can add features to the product that Adobe is not currently providing.

Or is it maybe that it is not an OPEN standard?

"Open standard" != "open source"

An "open standard"(*) is a published specification that would allow a competent developer to produce a product that is interoperable without having to reverse-engineer the specification and without having to pay a license fee to implement a compliant product. That has nothing to do with whether the source is made available.

And there are other SWF products, including open-source ones such as Gnash. Feel free to add your features to that code.

But the opening of SWF is a fairly recent development. Up until about 2 years ago, even if you had the specification document you were constrained not to produce a product that could play SWF. Also, I hear that the published standard isn't complete, although I don't know the details.

This, by the way, was similar to the approach Adobe takes to PDF, which was also an Adobe specification but is now an ISO standard.

(*) Really, should say "open specification" because AFAIK no competent standards body has adopted SWF as a standard. The process by which the specification is changed is not similar to the collective way HTML, for example, is changed. Instead, Adobe makes changes unilaterally as it sees fit. So while SWF may be an "open specification" there is no "open standards process" involved.

 

[ValSalva]

you know I'm an Apple fan, and an Adobe fan. Watching the two of them at it like this is like seeing parents go at it in front of their kids... It just feels wrong.

But it also lifts the veneer that usually covers the usual boring corporate-speak. I find these interchanges fascinating. Talk like this is probably the norm 'behind the scenes.' We rarely get a chance to hear it less edited like it's coming through lately.

 

[Small White Car]

There is no cell phone that runs flash, Adobe said it would come out in first half of 09, then second half of 09, then first half of 2010, now second half of 2010, I still don't think we will ever see it.

Well, according to that poster it's all Steve Jobs' fault he doesn't have Flash.

I'm just working on the assumptions he gave me. If it's true, he should be able to find plenty of other non-Apple options out there, right?

If there's not, then that's kind of his problem for saying there are.

 

[glui2001]

If you actually read his comments, I think you will find your answer. Apple is turning into a company that no one wanted to see. They are the new M$.

You mean like convicted monopolists? No. Not even close in any way or form

 

[macNerd1]

I'm thinking the CEO of Adobe doesn't know the meaning of the term "open standard".

One of the best fanboy quote.
Comon, give him some respect. That's why we fanboys are ridiculed all over the place.

 

[m4c1nt05h]

the Internet is NOT an Operating System

again, the Internet is just a big network of computers that need an established way to communicate with each other. it is determined by the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) what those protocols are. they established the "Internet Standards" which is what makes the Internet truly "open".

From wikipedia "The complex communications infrastructure of the Internet consists of its hardware components and a system of software layers that control various aspects of the architecture. While the hardware can often be used to support other software systems, it is the design and the rigorous standardization process of the software architecture that characterizes the Internet and provides the foundation for its scalability and success. The responsibility for the architectural design of the Internet software systems has been delegated to the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF).[9] The IETF conducts standard-setting work groups, open to any individual, about the various aspects of Internet architecture. Resulting discussions and final standards are published in a series of publications, each called a Request for Comments (RFC), freely available on the IETF web site. The principal methods of networking that enable the Internet are contained in specially designated RFCs that constitute the Internet Standards."

this is a huge difference from an Operating System. again from wikipedia

"Mac OS X

Mac OS X is a line of partially proprietary, graphical operating systems developed, marketed, and sold by Apple Inc."

"Microsoft Windows

Microsoft Windows is a family of proprietary operating systems that originated as an add-on to the older MS-DOS operating system for the IBM PC. "

i'm not turning this into an MS vs Apple debate but merely posted these facts to differentiate between what is an OS, and what the Internet is.

It seems that Mr. Adobe can't differentiate between the 2 when he says his products are "multi-platform".

 

[Earendil]

The truth is that HTML5 involves more than supporting Safari mobile... There's a plethora of OS and mobile formats that HTML5 doesn't work with, and probably never will with any sort of consistency.

This letter shows that the recent Google/Android/Flash 10.1 announcements have really got Steve worried...

I beg to differ, it does't show that at all. Steve has made some off handed comments, some internal memos, etc, that have been dispersed and magnified by the internet community and media. I believe this is the first time that Apple has sat down and written a public letter of explanation explaining their stance.

If anything it shows how resolute Apple is. It also allows Apple to come back around to Flash, if ever Adobe gets all those points ironed out. At this point Adobe should be worried. They either have to meet those points, or get over it. Or I suppose they could continue on their current path (as far as the public can see) of just telling Apple their wrong

 

[firewood]

I may speak as loudly as I am able, and Apple (or anyone) can and will listen to me if I speak loudly enough. I can't begin to comprehend the learned helplessness that is putting up with what's on offer in the world and not clamouring for improvement everywhere.

I can't begin to comprehend idiots who don't put their money where their mouth is.

And whether it's an improvement or not is a matter of opinion.

 

[Veri]

So, you'd prefer the intarweb that Shantanu wants you to see over the one that Steve (and the rest of the people responsible for the creation on web standards) wants you to see.

Jobs is as responsible for the creation of web standards as I am.

Adobe, on the other hand, has demonstrated the power of a WWW combining basic HTML with multiplatform plug-ins fit for purpose.

Maybe a huge monolithic HTML spec is the right way for delivering everything the world has to offer. I don't think so, and neither do Apple or Adobe, which is why they offer competing Cocoa and Flash respectively - and why they're spatting like kids.

 

[quinntaylor]

Bravo on calling Jobs out for the soulless idiot that he is. It's going to be fun watching Apple fall apart under the weight of their own hypocrisy.

I should file this under "look this up in 2-3 years and smile all over again". The "hypocrisy" you speak of is actually an insistence to implement things well instead of doing things the easy, crappy way. You may remember that Flash has never been on iPhone OS, a fact which has not prevented Apple's unmitigated success in the market over the last 3 years. Far from causing the company to collapse, their mentality has generated not only the iPhone itself, but also a virtually bottomless revenue stream for Apple and third-party developers. Not exactly what most people would consider "falling apart"...

 

[Cambot]

No one complains about not being able to run Mac software on Adobe's tablet or phone... Oh wait...
Quit complaining about Flash, if you think it's so great: prove it, or invent a device that'll put Apple in a corner.

Meanwhile, I'll call the waaahmbulance to Adobe headquarters.

 

[Yebot]

Steven P. Jobs and Shantanu Narayen continued to wage war over little videos and animations.


Meanwhile ...

Mark Zuckerburg was busy stealing the rest of the Internet. Damn you, Zuckerberg.


Poke.

 

[dmbaggie]

I think Mr. Jobs would counter with:

- HTML5 + Other Standards (open) + Internet (Open)

I agree with you completely.

 

[SAPPete]

So, you'd prefer the intarweb that Shantanu wants you to see over the one that Steve (and the rest of the people responsible for the creation on web standards) wants you to see.

Nah, I'd just prefer that I can actually use websites that use flash for content or navigation. I don't particularly care if it makes sense or not that they use flash, I just run across enough websites that do.

 

[thecartoonguy]

Best laugh of the week! Thanks!

 

[Cvstos]

They claim that they promote open web standards like HTML5, CSS and Javascript. I'm preeeeetty sure that in the first line they admit that the iPhone OS is proprietary.

The iPhone OS is NOT the internet. There's a difference.
Jobs is making an argument for using open standards on the internet, and Apple's devices and browsers (Safari, mobile Safari) make use of open standards on the internet that are superior to the closed platform of Adobe Flash that is frequently used in place of open-standards alternatives on the internet and that Adobe is trying to push as an open standard when it is not; it is closed an proprietary system totally controlled by Adobe (oh, and it sucks).

You can complain all you want that Apple isn't an open-source techno-hippie jam company but you're trying to compare the (yes, closed) iPhone OS to (the also closed) Flash when the discussion is Flash versus (the open standards of) HTML5 et al.