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Adobe Has 'Moved On' in Dispute With Apple Over Flash on iOS Devices
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Supporting flash does not mean forcing everyone to use it. On Android, you have to get Flash from the Android Market, then you can set it to Disabled, Enabled or On Demand, giving you long lasting battery life when you need and Flash when you need it.
It's so funny how most iPhone users can't see the world in shades of grey, only Black and White (kinda like the choices of iPhone colors).
http://www.sonyericsson.com/cws/corporate/products/phoneportfolio/specification/xperiax10mini
Available colours
- Black - Pearl White - Lime - Red - Pink - Silver
Why look at that, Pink is in there.
http://www.sonyericsson.com/cws/corporate/products/phoneportfolio/specification/xperiax10mini
Available colours
- Black - Pearl White - Lime - Red - Pink - Silver
Why look at that, Pink is in there.
Most places only stock black. My girlfriend is one of those pink everything girls, though it makes it easy to find flowers.
This. Prior to Gnash 0.8.8 for Ubuntu that's installed on my 30GB iBook G4 (that I've been using since my MacBook broke), I use to always get that one way or another since Adobe only made an Intel version. This got irritating really fast since I couldn't upload, create, or view anything that required it.
I know, Ubuntu on an iBook... "WTH", right? Point is it proves that the web is dependent on a closed-source plugin owned by a single corporation. This is why the HTML5 standards really need to hurry it up.
Why did I know you'd try to weasel your way out of being wrong, again ?
Face it, you tried to get a jab in, again failed to check your sources on the vast network that is the Internet and ended up wrong.
Anyway, why even bring in Android ? The comment was aimed solely at iPhone users and their constant black & white view of the world. It really had nothing to do with the phone and the available colors (which is black nowadays).
Why did I know you'd try to weasel your way out of being wrong, again ?
Isn't that the whole point of Academic writing?
You made the analogy, and for an analogy to a "valid" one the context must be applicable to the item in the analogy, and the item the analogy is applied to.
Oh, and I did check the vast internets, most places only stock black or white phones.
And my analogy did not include Android, why even bring it in ? I rarely see any Android users being against choice because that would force them to ... choose !
Seriously, what a terrible experience having to make choices is.
Check the manufacturer's site next time.
But thats a bit useless when manufacturers websites include items they don't even make anymore.
Most manufacturers put those in the "Unsupported" or "Legacy" or "Archive" section, not in the product listing.
Are you arguing just for argument's sake now ? Driving up your post count ?
Yes, use things that work or don't work. I like things that work, that is why I have an iPhone and Macs.
Yes, use things that work or don't work. I like things that work, that is why I have an iPhone and Macs.
But that's the thing, stuff isn't so Black and white and Flash is a good example. People go "battery drain this and battery drain that", well gee, might want to just use Flash on demand then ?
Have options is often times better than the "No Flash at all because it some scenarios it might be bad".
You're a good example of what I meant.
This argument is not really about or for tech-heads who understand technology and enjoy messing with it they are more based around people like my dad who just bought an iPad has no real technical knowledge.
Apple design things that just work, are not confusing and are as much as possible simple and intuitive. Having a system in your web browser that is a little more than an open beta with all the bugs, CPU usage and glitches and on top of that you don't control the source or the development speed means you get all the bad publicity from end users who say well the iPad sucks the browser is always slow, not useable (due to mouse/KB controls) and/or crashes. The end user like my dad would not go oh that's Adobe & Flash being crap I better disable it etc, they would just say that sucks Apple.
If Adobe came up with a workable solution which is fast and stable on other mobile devices so it works great and starts to get popular on the other mobile devices then I think Apple *might* start to change it's mind.
But right now if Apple said yes to flash tomorrow what would be have? Based of the Andriod version, a buggy slow plugin that would not work on lots of sites, cause the battery live to take a dive, slow down the entire machine and mean you have a large section of your web features controlled by an outside company which will naturally have a different set of priorities to your own.
This means is a flash bug exists you cannot just get a quick fix you need to wait till Adobe decide to fix it, based on the number of open bugs in Windows and Mac flash it is not exactly a odds on bet that it would be as quick as you could patch the issue yourself.
By all means I would like to have flash (so I can watch videos on news sites etc) but I want something that works smoothly and all the time. To none technical people who don't understand who makes flash right now they just know the odd site does not work as well (and has a missing plugin logo) that missing logo causes way less complaints for Apple than reduced battery life, freezing and crashing webpages.
Apple's decision was not black and white it was shades of grey, they totalled the pros and cons decided that Flash technology was not ready for the iOS due to performance and usability. It decided that the open standards (not necessarily open source) of HTML5 and H264 was a better bet for the future. I see this nothing more than when Apple dropped the floppy drive.
You had people on both extremes going "Apple are crazy", "Floppy is so popular", "it's a standard way of doing things", "everyone uses floppy's" and the opponents saying "floppies are old, CD's and flash drives are the future", "floppy is a dying technology etc". Everyone did not know if Apple had made the right move or not but after a few years it was clear that they had.
I don't know if Apple are right on this one but it is exactly the same argument, Apple think Flash is a technology that has run it's mainstream course and have dropped it from their new iOS, I don't know if they are right or wrong but when Apple make a decision they usually have put a lot of thought into it before announcing (in this case about 2+ years since iPhone launched).
Edwin
Web comic making fun of Flash issue
Thought people may enjoy this related web comic entitled apple genome
Thought people may enjoy this related web comic entitled apple genome
All I know is, I can finally see Flash based restaurant websites. I can try out the Flash based version of _any_ website, and if I like the non-Flash version better, I can use it instead.
Assuming they have a non-Flash version, that is.
We saw a "nun's" comedy show at the NY Renaissance Faire the other day, and wanted to check out their website while at dinner with friends. Looking them up on Google, we found http://heynunnienunnie.com/.
The iPhone user at the table went there and got a "must download Flash" warning... and that's all.
His eight year old little sister grabbed my Android smartphone, and got the full website over 3G. She had no problem navigating it and showing her brother the sample videos.
The iPhone didn't even give its owner the chance. Lack of choice is not choice.
Assuming they have a non-Flash version, that is.
We saw a "nun's" comedy show at the NY Renaissance Faire the other day, and wanted to check out their website while at dinner with friends. Looking them up on Google, we found http://heynunnienunnie.com/.
The iPhone user at the table went there and got a "must download Flash" warning... and that's all.
His eight year old little sister grabbed my Android smartphone, and got the full website over 3G. She had no problem navigating it and showing her brother the sample videos.
The iPhone didn't even give its owner the chance. Lack of choice is not choice.
That's a wonderful story that shows one of the trade offs of using an iPhone over an Android phone.
But choosing "lack of choice" (aka "lack of flash") is a choice.
I would like to (re)call everyone's attention to post #181 (from Aug 17th):
Most interesting to me is how not a single one of the whiners here replied to Edwin's post. Most hilarious to me are the posts about "openness" which try to contrast iOS versus Flash. How can folks not understand the difference between a computer operating system (which only need work on a specific hardware platform) and an Internet video "standard" (which by definition should be fully functional and accessible to all devices in the virtual universe). Why is that basic distinction so incomprehensible to these Flashy fanatics?
--
Anyway, the title says it all: it's (past) time to move on. As far as iOS goes, Flash is dead. Folks like KnightWRX and macUser2007 can multi-post until they're blue in the face... it doesn't matter. **Nothing** they say matters. Millions upon millions of iOS users are happy (ecstatic even) without Flash.
Get over it. Go buy a 'droid and disappear.
[me, i'll be picking up a new touch in a week or so.]
It is highly debated all over the web if it is truly OPEN and FREE, many people see it as a submarine patent minefield. It also as of yet is not popular and does not offer (shipping) hardware decoding on any devices. This makes the codec (right now at least) not a big player, although over time if it gets popular it might get wider adoption. Personally I think H264 has won this round as it is used in everything from Blueray down to mini video recorders, becoming the ubiquitous standard.macUser2007 said:
As soon as someone makes the plugin available on the Mac for QuickTime it will just work in all versions of Safari and all over the OS. So far nobody has compiled the source code and make a plugin available. Basically Apple's work is already done, Safari is compatible all you need is the plugin. I think future versions of Perian should add support for WebM. Incidentally IE on Windows has the same behaviour if you install the WebM plugin it will work.macUser2007 said:
Apple have not refused to support anything, in fact as soon as someone ports the codec it will work all over the OS! YouTube hosts (and has no plans to stop hosting) videos in H264 which plays natively without flash on all iOS devices, Playstation 3, Wii etc I can't see YouTube getting rid of h264 as it is used by so many embedded devices not just Apple iOS devices.macUser2007 said:
That is a bold prediction judging by the slow pickup of WebM so far and the progress of Mobile flash since the iPhone first was shipped.macUser2007 said:
The OS X API's are not really any more restrictive or not compared to the Window's OS. As someone who has worked with Apple dev for years on performance applications (games) I can tell you they don't have any secret Apple only features so make their apps super fast!Mr. MacPhisto said:
That is WAY off the truth.Mr. MacPhisto said:
For example Apple took an open source web browser that was not popular and quite buggy and spend millions of dollars making it the best mobile browser in the world. So much so basically every mobile phone company is using it and Google even use it for Chrome.
Actually it was Adobe who could not get it working on the iPhone as Apple don't program Flash, Adobe do!Mr. MacPhisto said:
To quote Apple on this (and this part of Apple's claims have not been denied in any way by Adobe).Mr. MacPhisto said:
As you can see Adobe tried and failed to get Flash working on any mobile device for a couple of years so Apple gave up. If Adobe get Flash working super fast on a mobile device and is popular Apple I am sure might look at this again. But right now talking about high performance Flash on a mobile device is like talking about a unicorn. Neither of them exist outside of stories.AppleLetterOnFlash said:
A Flash benchmark? All that will really show is how bad (or good) Flash is on a platform compared to another one, it won't show anything else about the devices! Hardware in iOS devices are similar to all the other hardware out there and even if you are a Google fanboy/Apple hater you have to admit the hardware in the iOS devices is on the upper end (but maybe not the best) of available hardware.Mr. MacPhisto said:
Having Flash or not having Flash is an interesting debate but it is all intellectual till Adobe actually get Flash to work well and without using up all the batteries on any mobile device. At that point Apple might start to suffer for the lack of Flash support, right now as no fully functional and high performing Flash exists so Apple are not really being effected.
The best thing I personally think Adobe can do is first design some great tools for HTML5 so they become the default app to have around for HTML5 design a bit like Photoshop is with images. Second get Flash running fast on mobile device once they have it running fast and reliable that is better ammo than anything else, perhaps release (or leak) the app on Cydia as a demo as if it runs brilliantly then Apple have less of an argument about flash support.
Right now complaining about Apple when you cannot get Flash working well on any mobile platform is not a position of strength, if Adobe have it working fast on other mobiles then the tables will turn a little.
Edwin
p.s. These thoughts are mine and mine alone and in no way reflect the views of my employer.
Most interesting to me is how not a single one of the whiners here replied to Edwin's post. Most hilarious to me are the posts about "openness" which try to contrast iOS versus Flash.
How can folks not understand the difference between a computer operating system (which only need work on a specific hardware platform) and an Internet video "standard" (which by definition should be fully functional and accessible to all devices in the virtual universe). Why is that basic distinction so incomprehensible to these Flashy fanatics? --
Anyway, the title says it all: it's (past) time to move on. As far as iOS goes, Flash is dead. Folks like KnightWRX and macUser2007 can multi-post until they're blue in the face... it doesn't matter. **Nothing** they say matters. Millions upon millions of iOS users are happy (ecstatic even) without Flash.
Get over it.
Go buy a 'droid and disappear. [me, i'll be picking up a new touch in a week or so.]
No, the website didn't give the iPhone owner a chance. Requiring a proprietary plugin to view your website is not a choice, it's a mandate. And if Flash were an Apple technology, people would be up in arms over Apple's "lock-in" of the Web.
But since it's Adobe, no one seems to mind.
Don't get me started on Apple's contribution to mobile site fragmentation.
There are plenty of websites that have iPhone-specific pages/apps, using Apple's special meta-tags that other mobile browsers don't recognize, and without which the pages look bad and/or don't work correctly.
I think we'll start to see more people wondering why Apple locks its users out of Flash support, while their Android-using friends are not so held back.
But since it's Adobe, no one seems to mind.
Don't worry. Apple gets by with plenty of things that other companies would be nailed for
google it and you will see
MS did this with windows 2000 back in the day. open standards but lock everyone into your platform
Is this it?
http://developer.apple.com/library/...eference/safarihtmlref/articles/metatags.html
I don't see how any of these tags would lead to problems on other mobile browsers or create lock in. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'd just like more information.
"More people wondering" ??? Really?
Dream on. Flash is increasingly irrelevant every day... except for goofy sites like that nunnienunnie nonsense you posted. [got any useful examples?] Anyway —if Flash's *mobile* performance ever does improve —be sure to send a thank-you note to SJ for giving Adobe his boot where the sun don't shine, and getting them off their lazy butts.
Anyway, the title says it all: it's (past) time to move on. As far as iOS goes, Flash is dead. Folks like KnightWRX and macUser2007 can multi-post until they're blue in the face... it doesn't matter. **Nothing** they say matters. Millions upon millions of iOS users are happy (ecstatic even) without Flash.
Get over it.
[me, i'll be picking up a new touch in a week or so.]
Folks like Hal Itosis can multi-post until they're blue in the face... it doesn't matter. I still own a Mac and an iPhone and other Apple peripherals and will continue visiting this forum.
I didn't answer the guy's last post nor the one on the last page because it suffered from TL;DR syndrome. Guy replies to 1 line with a novel. Forget it, I don't read people that like to hear themselves type.