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Adobe Has 'Moved On' in Dispute With Apple Over Flash on iOS Devices
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Open source and open platfoms are not all that great. With CEO'S now trying to dictate what developers can use, you should be glad
we have company backed languages who will go to bat for the developers, like Adobe.
Had Apple chosen an open source language to attack who will stand up for the developers? You want developers being dictated by ceo's and marketing tactics instead of client needs?
we have company backed languages who will go to bat for the developers, like Adobe.
Had Apple chosen an open source language to attack who will stand up for the developers? You want developers being dictated by ceo's and marketing tactics instead of client needs?
Exactly. IE doesn't support it, well in IE8 at least. For most businesses they are still using IE6!
This is simple. What products we want to run and not run should be a decision by the end-user. Not a company. As a Flash user, now i am limited cause of what Apple has disabled. As a Premiere user, now i am limited cause of what Apple did to disable NVidia card support. I've never had a prob with Flash. I want to use HTML5 AND Flash. I like Mac And PC. I don't want to be limited as a Creative. Let's be honest. Apple's reason for the above is primarily political. Blu-Ray support? They have an issue with Sony...its political. Its not about 'limitations' of this or that technology. As a longtime Mac fan, i'm with Adobe on this one.
It's only simple if you ignore the rights of people and companies that are not you.
Frankly, if you've been disabling Flash for the last 5 years, you can't have an informed opinion on the state of Flash, or know what you are missing....
It's like my grandma opining that she has no use for the iPhone 4
BTW, in the last few years Steve Jobs claimed that:
“Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain.”
and that:
"people don't read anymore."
Then he said Google's Android will be a failure and it will hurt Google.... LOL!
As to lying about Flash, Jobs did claim that you can get the "full web" on the iPad and the iPhone. This is a lie, of course: first, a large portion of video is still available only in Flash, and second, tons of sites, including most entertainment, sports and arts ones, have entire portions built in Flash. So, no, the iPad doesn't get the "full web," not even close.
Of course, you wouldn't know this.
No matter how many times you repeat this lie, it doesn't make it true.
Adobe has documented and released a nearly full specification. They did not reverse engineer anything since it is their product. You can download and view the specification from their website :
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf/
Notice how the URL points to adobe.com.
Someone documented the rest through reverse engineering, specifically, the encryption required to talk to the DRM server. This is a small part of Flash and is useful for a few edge cases. The Adobe released specification is enough to write a runtime for most people's use.
Have I made any statements about the state of Flash in this thread? And just because I disable it does not mean that I'm ignorant of it. I disable it because of what I know about it.
First, I was responding to a claim that "every single one of steve jobs complaints on flash are nothing but 100% lies." That's obviously not true.
Second, I never claimed nor do I believe that Jobs has never been wrong.
Third, the claim about the "full web" (if he actually used that term) is entirely dependent on your definition of "full web". He's not lying if he simply disagrees with you about what constitutes the "full web". Most common definitions only refer to a system of interlinked HTML documents. Images, video, audio, and flash are just content types that are accessible via the web.
No matter how many times you repeat this lie, it doesn't make it true.
He was correct that "Flash is neither open source or an open standard." He was wrong that the spec was anything more than partially reverse-engineered. Obviously, they have released most of the spec for open use.
I disagree about DRM only being useful in "a few edge cases." I think Hulu is pretty high on the list of sites people miss without Flash.
Adobe's spec hasn't proven to be enough for anybody to care to implement an implementation that is less than 3 generations old. If nobody cares to implement an open spec, what's the point? Other than to provide a bullet point to appease people who favor an open internet.
Accessible, but not by iOS users..
"Full Web" means the web I get on my desktop. With video, animations and images. Period.
The Advertising Standards Authority in the UK agreed, when it ordered Apple to pull its ads claiming "full web" access on the iPhone.
But, again, you may not know what it means, since you admit that you have disabled Flash for the last 5 years. I guess some like their web experience as it was circa 1995.
iOS users don't get the "full web." No matter how Jobs tries to obfuscate that fact.
Ahh...see you as the end-user making a choice. That is my point. You simply disable it and choose to not use it. That is my 'simple' point.
No company should take that away. Adobe makes a good point. Its like buying a TV with leaving a couple popular channels off the menu. We as users should decide whether we want all the channels or not. Otherwise, you buy a different TV.
Good for them. Whining about Apple not bending over backwards for them was getting quite tiring; Let them prove their app/framework/product is good enough to stand on it's own.
I actually approve of Cydia, given Apple is so controlling with their market (which is their right). I think it's benefiting if there is some gray-market stuff, as long as that market isn't copying legit apps without payment.
Well, consider me one of those folks who has flashblock installed on safari, firefox and stripped it from my Chrome installation.
btw, unless those "images" are paranoid flash-based "don't copy this" crap, I see images just fine in iOS.
I've really noticed that the "full web" is full of *****. My parents due to their addiction to flash games (slowly being replaced by app store games on their iPad) can't currently live without it, but I've noticed that my browsing is a lot less cluttered without Flash... I don't use the web for useless glitz. I go to communicate, for commerce and to get news... everything else IMHO is not essential.
Maybe Apple should sell the "essential web" or "free web" since it supports standards-based technology (where open source rules).
Flash sucks
First of all, whenever there is an update, nothing works unless I get the update. Youtube doesn't let me watch HQ videos and many games say I need Flash 10 (or whatever).
Then I download it. "Better Performance"? Ha. What a joke. That piece of junk software made Safari run half as fast as Flash Player 8.
Then again, Flash Player 8 tended to crash Safari for no reason. So I got Click2Flash. You can tell that something sucks if there's an app to disable it (for the most part).
And Steve Jobs is right. Flash Player is the #1 reason for a Mac crash. It also tends to make my computer lag if there's a buggy script (like in some stupid ads now disabled by my little friend Click2Flash).
Flash believes in open development but they won't even make their stupid player work right. If they want it on iOS, make it so people would want it.
It's like a Droid. It SEEMS better than the iPhone (unjailbroken). You aren't limited by the App store or a touchscreen keyboard. The battery is user removeable. Then you get it and realize that it sucks. It's ugly and useless. The apps are garbage. The battery doesn't last as long (because it's user-replaceable).
In the end you'd actually get sick of Flash quickly. The only thing I want is for Mobile Safari to be able to play QT movies in a webpage
First of all, whenever there is an update, nothing works unless I get the update. Youtube doesn't let me watch HQ videos and many games say I need Flash 10 (or whatever).
Then I download it. "Better Performance"? Ha. What a joke. That piece of junk software made Safari run half as fast as Flash Player 8.
Then again, Flash Player 8 tended to crash Safari for no reason. So I got Click2Flash. You can tell that something sucks if there's an app to disable it (for the most part).
And Steve Jobs is right. Flash Player is the #1 reason for a Mac crash. It also tends to make my computer lag if there's a buggy script (like in some stupid ads now disabled by my little friend Click2Flash).
Flash believes in open development but they won't even make their stupid player work right. If they want it on iOS, make it so people would want it.
It's like a Droid. It SEEMS better than the iPhone (unjailbroken). You aren't limited by the App store or a touchscreen keyboard. The battery is user removeable. Then you get it and realize that it sucks. It's ugly and useless. The apps are garbage. The battery doesn't last as long (because it's user-replaceable).
In the end you'd actually get sick of Flash quickly. The only thing I want is for Mobile Safari to be able to play QT movies in a webpage
Adobe just notice that Apple stopped caring about mobile Flash right when the first iPhone was released. The "attack on flash" on the iPad is nothing new. It's running iOS, what did they expect? Sure it's a computer, but it's a netbook computer, meaning limited functionality. It's like an iPT but with some more features that a really basic computer user could use instead of a laptop. You don't need Flash for work and such.
I, like a lot of people, even disable flash on my computer (except for Youtube and the occasional game). Click2Flash gets rid of that bandwidth/power/visual hog Flash Player.
How? Apple didn't make iLife for Windows? You say that's the same as Adobe not making FrameMaker for OS X?
Apple is a company that makes OSs and software. Adobe only makes non-OS software. They ought to put everything on Windows (and Solaris) on a Mac too if they have all of the apps for Mac (Flash, Dreamweaver, etc.).
And Apple is NOT overpriced and bloated. They were a tiny company in 2003. I had a Mac then and nobody knew what it was. They've become bigger through hard work, good design, and good tactics. Adobe...they bought Macromedia.
As for overpriced, a Mac is actualy cheaper than a Windows computer in the long run. First of all, most new Windows laptops cost more than a MacBook. Apple has the best customer support I've ever seen and is very generous. I came in with a Mighty Mouse with a dirty scroll wheel for them to clean (I couldn't clean it myself with nail polish remover) and they gave me a NEW mouse instead. So, add up the Windows computer ($400+), possible repair expenses, more frequent problems, expensive OS upgrades (you need to shell out $300 for a worthwhile OS upgrade because Windows Basic is a joke), and short life (Dells especially suck in quality) and you get a Windows computer costing more total than a Mac ($600+ for computer, no other expenses).
Apple is not overpriced and selfish. They just provide good quality and good support.
Finally, I thought they never shut up. They call themselves "open," yet I can't get even get their damn same Flash player on this iBook G4 with Ubuntu 10.04 (no DVD-ROM, FYI), even though it's for OS X on the same processor. Remember, Tiger and above plus Universal applications equals large footprint for a 30GB HD. Granted I'm just using it as a last resort until I get a new laptop since my MacBook broke.
Though still I'm freakin' tired of seeing Firefox nag me to install a plugin that I obviously can't. Not even Gnash helps these days. I wish they'd fully open source the player while we're stuck with it. It'll allow for great competition and let the community port their own Flash-based players to other platforms freely without relying solely on Adobe. :|
This is not to say I want to keep it. Plugin deserves to die.... Though while we're stuck with it, we might as well make do with it. Otherwise, I'm still pro-HTML5.
Now..., aside from that rant, I'm very happy swamping Mac OS X for Ubuntu. Sue me.
Though still I'm freakin' tired of seeing Firefox nag me to install a plugin that I obviously can't. Not even Gnash helps these days. I wish they'd fully open source the player while we're stuck with it. It'll allow for great competition and let the community port their own Flash-based players to other platforms freely without relying solely on Adobe. :|
This is not to say I want to keep it. Plugin deserves to die.... Though while we're stuck with it, we might as well make do with it. Otherwise, I'm still pro-HTML5.
Now..., aside from that rant, I'm very happy swamping Mac OS X for Ubuntu. Sue me.
Battle of the Closed System
>"Narayan quickly responded in his company's defense, attempting to contrast Apple's "closed" ecosystem with the multi-platform, "open" stance taken by Adobe."
Guffaw.
Fact: Apple is a closed system
Fact: Adode Flash is a propriety platform. Which is therefore also a closed system.
The fact that Adobe is trying to posture as open is a joke. They are both as closed as each other. No moral high ground amongst these two. That is why the battle is over. They are as both as closed as each other. The only difference is that maybe one cares to admit it.
>"Narayan quickly responded in his company's defense, attempting to contrast Apple's "closed" ecosystem with the multi-platform, "open" stance taken by Adobe."
Guffaw.
Fact: Apple is a closed system
Fact: Adode Flash is a propriety platform. Which is therefore also a closed system.
The fact that Adobe is trying to posture as open is a joke. They are both as closed as each other. No moral high ground amongst these two. That is why the battle is over. They are as both as closed as each other. The only difference is that maybe one cares to admit it.
Like I said, you simply disagree on the definition of "full web." Your definition is tailored to fit your point. It is not the only definition, or even a common one. If your definition requires that you are able to view any video, animation, or image on the internet, then there probably isn't a computer on the planet that is currently configured to view the full web.
Yes, but your simple point ignores the fact that you would be infringing on Apple's rights. Why do you have the right to determine what they carry in their store? Also, iOS does not support third party plugins at all. Apple would have to engineer support for plugins such as Flash. Why should they be forced to if they do not want to?
It's not a simple issue. It would require significant resources on Apple's part just to be able to include Flash.
Well if Apple bought Adobe, there would be no more debate, and HTML 5 Full Spec would finally see the light of day, in Dreamweaver, and other products. It'd be the death of flash R.I.P.
Maybe, I'll send Steve, an email to suggest that.
Maybe, I'll send Steve, an email to suggest that.
Well if Apple bought Adobe, there would be no more debate, and HTML 5 Full Spec would finally see the light of day, in Dreamweaver, and other products. It'd be the death of flash R.I.P.
Maybe, I'll send Steve, an email to suggest that.
God forbid.
I can see Jobs cancelling CS and allocating Adobe engineers to iOS related crap.