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Haha, people still actually buy software from Adobe. The Internet is your friend people.

;) I agree that it's crazy to pay full price. Everyone has to know someone in college or who can at least get an educational discount. I mean of several hundred bucks, make a friend. Otherwise, yes, simply 5-10 minutes on the net can yield you the full CS Suite and all the major plug ins. I think the total available in that time is about $3,500.
 
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This is not exactly a tough decision...

  • Rent Photoshop for one month... $49
  • Own a copy of Pixelmator... $29.99

Is Adobe stupid or do they think we are?

(ahem) There IS a difference. Photoshop is far more advanced that Pixelmator for P-R-O-F-E-S-S-I-O-N-A-L work. It has a deeper set of tools and features available. Why do you think it's expensive? For one, it has many plug-ins and filters built in that come from third party developers.

Pixelmator is a nice application and does things pretty close to what Photoshop does, but only to a certain degree with a ceiling limit. For $29 bucks, you're only getting what you get in Pixelmator, nothing more. Photoshop, however is a very demanding program that takes up a lot of RAM and a learning curve.
 
;) I agree that it's crazy to pay full price. Everyone has to know someone in college or who can at least get an educational discount. I mean of several hundred bucks, make a friend. Otherwise, yes, simply 5-10 minutes on the net can yield you the full CS Suite and all the major plug ins. I think the total available in that time is about $3,500.

$3,500?

No.

Make that close to $1,500. Don't exaggerate. Premium packages cost a bit more but Standards are a bit cheaper. You always have the option of buying just ONE Adobe application if you don't need the rest of the stuff. Or buy them one at a time. Or buy Standard for Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign (for the print/publishing industry), for instance.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)

Looks like I become a monthly slave to company subscribtions

So do a lot of people being a monthly slave to paying bills and SUBSCRIPTIONS to magazines. It's the price of being a consumer. That's how the economy thrives from your pockets. Stealing for free does'nt help the economic machine of your country.
 
;) I agree that it's crazy to pay full price. Everyone has to know someone in college or who can at least get an educational discount. I mean of several hundred bucks, make a friend. Otherwise, yes, simply 5-10 minutes on the net can yield you the full CS Suite and all the major plug ins. I think the total available in that time is about $3,500.

I used the educational discount, but it cannot be upgraded to my knowledge. I bought Production Premium a few weeks ago and I seriously doubt I will receive an email for a free upgrade. Why should I? I paid next to nothing for the suite "as is."

Although, I hope updates will be available, especially since support will be obsolete next April. I assume updates are support and they go to the wayside after April of next year?

I never contemplated downloading a hacked version.
 
actually, I run a business, and I think it is a bunch of crap...

If you run a business, like I do, then you would actually appreciate what they've done. To hire a new designer involves having enough work in the first place, which costs money. You then need to pay recruitment fees (anything from £500 - £5k depending who you use), buy them a new Mac (around £1500+ for a decent iMac), load it with software (around £2k) and then hope the candidate is as good as they interviewed. You're taking all of the risk and hoping that the work continues regularly enough to cover their salary and all of the expenses you just paid out on, when in SMEs it can vanish as quickly as it arrived. So after spending maybe as much as £8k before the member of staff has even started and you've bought their software, to be able to pay £85/m for the software instead of £1700 in one hit is a much needed relief.

If this scheme, and I mean scheme, works for you then great. However, I suspect that the ridiculous and endless upgrade price hikes are causing some folks to skip some of the upgrades if they do not feel the marginal improvements are worth the cost. And... this is their way to squeeze those folks on a more regular basis.

I am not advocating gimp, pixelimator, corel whatever... but perhaps in most instances the upgrades are not essential. I think Adobe has grown to be a repulsive example of some of the worst business practices, whereas they used to be thought of in much kinder terms.

To cite one example, Apple on the other hand has steadily reduced the cost of Aperture over the years, much in keeping with their usual trend of reducing cost, and increasing performance. I use Photoshop less and less these days, still mostly only for sizing, CMYK conversion, anything with layers or compositing, and stuff with type (which comprises probably around 10% of my workflow, and that is a high number). Aperture combined with Nikon's NIK suite introduced dramatic workflow changes, whereas photoshop has become a bloated beast, besotted with feature creep (surrounded by a few worthwhile improvements in each version).

Adobe also has moved to a Microsoft style breakdown of suite packages, and the packages seem to keep changing (how convenient and beneficial for them).

When Lion comes out it will probably take another 5-6 months for Adobe to release a stable and compatible version.

I never advocate piracy, but this just encourages some folks to do it. Meanwhile they are rolling in profits. Disgusting. Overreaching. Greed.
About sums it up for me...
 
So you're saying this theoritical guy that doesn't already have a copy of the CS5 program he's talented in using wouldn't make enough money to pay for it but would make enough to support his family ?

Case in point, people who pirate the CS5 Master Suite probably don't ever use half the applications in it and probably don't have the required talent to even use it professionally. People who do either have their work pay for it or can afford themselves as freelancers.

No, I'm saying this completely fake but probable guy isn't doing well enough with his full time job (which is as a graphic artist), so he's doing a little freelance work to get to a point where he can afford his various monthly payments. It's a break even thing, and there's not much left over, if any... theoretically.



You agree with him. You're saying the same thing as he is, that without the talent and knowledge to make sense of the tool, all you're doing is clicking through the tools as the tutorials you've found dictate and not actually "designing" anything using them or even doing art at all.

IE, talentless hacks thinking that because they read through "Teach yourself Photoshop CS5 in 24 hours", they're now a graphics artist.

Sort of, but his comment about how anyone can learn these apps was incorrect. I was saying you need to have some talent to start with, and once you do, use of the apps CAN increase your design skills - once you start to realize the things you can do with the tools at hand.
 
Good points. In any other profession, say a carpenter, you buy the tools before you make anything but you also have to have talent as a baseline.

Pretty sure people supporting illegally obtaining them wouldn't support said carpenter from walking into a Home Depot and walking out with $3k in power tools because "Hey, he is just getting started!".

No, I'm saying this completely fake but probable guy isn't doing well enough with his full time job (which is as a graphic artist), so he's doing a little freelance work to get to a point where he can afford his various monthly payments. It's a break even thing, and there's not much left over, if any... theoretically.

Sort of, but his comment about how anyone can learn these apps was incorrect. I was saying you need to have some talent to start with, and once you do, use of the apps CAN increase your design skills - once you start to realize the things you can do with the tools at hand.
 
(ahem) There IS a difference. Photoshop is far more advanced that Pixelmator for P-R-O-F-E-S-S-I-O-N-A-L work. It has a deeper set of tools and features available. Why do you think it's expensive? For one, it has many plug-ins and filters built in that come from third party developers.

I've been using Photoshop — professionally — for about 16 years. In that time I've seen the cost of technology dramatically drop. I've seen lots of open source software hit the market. And yet, Adobe still wants me to pay $600 for what I see as bloat.

Photoshop has better layer effects, and better type control. But other than that, I think Pixelmator is pretty solid. (I haven't had to worry about the CMYK color space in years. HA!) The quartz filters are fun. I like the speed and lightweight footprint of the app. I like how Pixelmator handles certain tools... like the Magic Wand.

Pixelmator is a nice application and does things pretty close to what Photoshop does, but only to a certain degree with a ceiling limit. For $29 bucks, you're only getting what you get in Pixelmator, nothing more. Photoshop, however is a very demanding program that takes up a lot of RAM and a learning curve.

With Pixelmator, I should be automatically getting an upgrade... version 2.0 for free.

(It jumped to $59.99 though. It looks like the lower price is gone.)

I've been using brushes, layers, blends, filters, color correction... I'm very happy with the software. I have CS4 Design Premium on my PC. If it was so much better, I could simply turn on my PC.


Sure, if you work at like a Printshop or design house, it's like expected to have Adobe products. I don't have that problem. I can pick alternatives. Between iWork and Pixelmator, I've eliminated the need for a lot of expensive software that I used to use on my PC. I wanted to move CS4 over to my Mac, but that would have been $600. So instead, I got Pixelmator and iWork.
 
I give it one more year, and Adobe's products will be entirely replaceable by App store Apps that will be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper. Developers will be making their money, the apps will be cheap enough that piracy won't be as big of an issue, and everyone will be happy (except Adobe....and those heavily invested into their software model, and business).
God, I hope so. I have been looking for a Dreamweaver replacement, not found anything yet. I have been using Pages to make epub books, like it for that more than I do InDesign. All of Adobe software is bloated, the new versions barely bring anything I need to the table, case in point, I upgraded to InDesign CS5 for the epub features and am instead using Pages, having to copy and paste the content over, but it works so much better and the price is so much better. I can't see upgrading any Adobe products again.

;) I agree that it's crazy to pay full price. Everyone has to know someone in college or who can at least get an educational discount. I mean of several hundred bucks, make a friend.
FYI, Adobe still considers you a pirate if you buy an educational version and you personally are not a student or faculty. So if you are going to be a pirate why bother buying a student version at all?
 
No, I'm saying this completely fake but probable guy isn't doing well enough with his full time job (which is as a graphic artist), so he's doing a little freelance work to get to a point where he can afford his various monthly payments. It's a break even thing, and there's not much left over, if any... theoretically.

And this fake and completely improbable guy scenario can't ask his boss to use the legally licensed copy at work after hours or just use an older version version ? Or can't do without the FULL CS suite and just buy the portions he needs ? Or... just use another tool than Adobe's that is cheaper ?

No seriously, not an excuse or valid scenario. A freelancer would find a way if he's motivated enough.
 
just download it, screw those multinational corporations. I'm already getting ripped off by Apple on my extremely overrated and overpriced MacPro. (didn't payed for it myself got it from work) Maybe some of the fanboys should stop kissing Jobs *** and glorify everything his corporation does or says. Why not complain about all the thousands of dollars Apple is ripping off from you by shipping outdated hardware in new machines, comes to think that lately every freaking thing Apple releases has some kind of problem...screen, video card,...etc. :eek:

Apple is charging hilariously high prices for memory...when someone comments on it here the fanboys go "...Oh but you shouldn't by memory from Apple" well ok than why the hell are you guys complaining that Adobe or whatever other company than Apple is overcharging..why not apply the same philosophy, if you feel like Adobe is overcharging you than go Coral or whatever other software that fits your needs and stop complaining.

Or just D O W N L O A D it, but i guess the elite or professionals you guys are don't get involved in anything this shocking wright.
 
I never advocate piracy, but this just encourages some folks to do it. Meanwhile they are rolling in profits. Disgusting. Overreaching. Greed.
About sums it up for me...

The very world/country you live in is build on greed, theft, slavery...and here's something new for you but your probably supporting it every day. But hey whatever you do make sure not to download anything you haven't payed for


Screw it i pay a monthly bill that allows me access to the internets...so in my twisted mind i believe that since i payed for the internets, everything that is downloadable is legit :D
 
And this fake and completely improbable guy scenario can't ask his boss to use the legally licensed copy at work after hours or just use an older version version ? Or can't do without the FULL CS suite and just buy the portions he needs ? Or... just use another tool than Adobe's that is cheaper ?

No seriously, not an excuse or valid scenario. A freelancer would find a way if he's motivated enough.

Unfortunately not. This extremely tired and overworked theoretical man cannot ask his boss, because the freelance work conflicts with the corporate work. He also just uses photoshop. He's looked for cheaper tools - really wants to love pixelmator, but it just falls too short, and doesn't offer the compatibility he needs to work with his colleagues. He'd love to buy an older version of the suite - CS3 would be fine - if he could find it at a reasonable price, which he can't.

This guy - like I imagine many other "pirates" - isn't a bad guy. He WANTS to buy it, but it's tough to swallow that kind of an asking price. One day soon, when he can afford to, he'll pay the price. He just can't right now.
 
Unfortunately not. This extremely tired and overworked theoretical man cannot ask his boss, because the freelance work conflicts with the corporate work. He also just uses photoshop. He's looked for cheaper tools - really wants to love pixelmator, but it just falls too short, and doesn't offer the compatibility he needs to work with his colleagues. He'd love to buy an older version of the suite - CS3 would be fine - if he could find it at a reasonable price, which he can't.

This guy - like I imagine many other "pirates" - isn't a bad guy. He WANTS to buy it, but it's tough to swallow that kind of an asking price. One day soon, when he can afford to, he'll pay the price. He just can't right now.

Look, anyone can make up stories to try to prove a point. You won't change my mind and I still think your over emotional made-up scenario is pure bunk to try to tug at the strings of the heart. My empathy meter is barely reaching up to "couldn't care less" levels. The people who "pirate" Creative Suite are talentless hacks who probably pirate it for the sake of saying they have it (hoarders, what most software pirates are), not to use it in any meaningful way.

I stick by my gross over-generalization which makes anyone saying they will pirate it not matter at all in the grand scheme of things and should not be something to get worked up about like the initial post I was responding to was doing. Just ignore the people who think Adobe's prices are outrageous, they are what they are because they sell the best tools and anyone who can take those tools to make something worthwhile doesn't give a damn about the price.
 
Unfortunately not. This extremely tired and overworked theoretical man cannot ask his boss, because the freelance work conflicts with the corporate work. He also just uses photoshop. He's looked for cheaper tools - really wants to love pixelmator, but it just falls too short, and doesn't offer the compatibility he needs to work with his colleagues. He'd love to buy an older version of the suite - CS3 would be fine - if he could find it at a reasonable price, which he can't.

This guy - like I imagine many other "pirates" - isn't a bad guy. He WANTS to buy it, but it's tough to swallow that kind of an asking price. One day soon, when he can afford to, he'll pay the price. He just can't right now.

If you can't afford it, then you don't get to use it.

Not sure how there's any gray area in this, at all.

If you want something, can't pay for it, then take it anyway...

That's theft.

You're criminals, and I can't _WAIT_ until it's easy for Adobe to track and fine you. People in the late 90s thought they could steal mp3s with impunity, then they started getting the fines from the RIAA. I can't WAIT. Jail time for some of you wankers, I'm sure.
 
You're criminals, and I can't _WAIT_ until it's easy for Adobe to track and fine you. People in the late 90s thought they could steal mp3s with impunity, then they started getting the fines from the RIAA. I can't WAIT. Jail time for some of you wankers, I'm sure.

Private organisations cannot fine people. The RIAA has levied no fines against individuals. There have been lawsuits and settlements, but not fines. Also, the RIAA cannot bring criminal copyright infringement charges, only civil ones. As such, you can't say "you're criminals". Criminal copyright infringement is not something that is brought against the casual software downloader, it is something that is charged against individuals that are into piracy for profit.

And it's not theft, it's copyright infringement. Theft deprives the true owner of his possession, copyright infringement doesn't.

At least if we're going to argue, let's argue using the proper terms.
 
Private organisations cannot fine people. The RIAA has levied no fines against individuals. There have been lawsuits and settlements, but not fines. Also, the RIAA cannot bring criminal copyright infringement charges, only civil ones. As such, you can't say "you're criminals". Criminal copyright infringement is not something that is brought against the casual software downloader, it is something that is charged against individuals that are into piracy for profit.

And it's not theft, it's copyright infringement. Theft deprives the true owner of his possession, copyright infringement doesn't.

At least if we're going to argue, let's argue using the proper terms.

You're right, it wasn't the RIAA handing the fines, of course, it was courts. But you're wrong, there most certainly have been fines:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/riaa-jury-slaps-2-million-fine-on-jammie-thomas/
http://www.pcworld.com/article/112436/industry_group_pays_childs_riaa_fine.html

My university was one of the schools targeted (several times) by the RIAA, which resulted in subpoenas to individuals, as well as several students losing all access to the university network.
 
Students pay either less (edu-discount-not just in the U.S.) for their Mac, buy a refurbished model or buy a used Mac from the previous owner. In the best case, this reduces the price of a previous generation Mac to one third or even to 25 percent of the original price.

And who says, students are rich? You, or what!? *lol*

No way, I never said student were rich. I was making the distinction between paying over $1000 for a Mac and not having the $350 needed for one of the suites. It really should be in their price considerations.

Or . . . they can always run the same software on a PC. ;)

i agree - as an independent myself I really have to justify outlays based on revenue potential. I no long can just write a purchase order and spend the corporate cash. OTOH, it has made me more aware of other tools beside the big guys that do what I need at a fraction of the cost.

Right. When you eat off of your gear you're always going to find ways to not spend SO MUCH on said gear so you can put more food in your mouth. Which is why I really don't have an issue claiming student-ship if I am able to. I personally don't do it with certain software titles, but I will do it with Apple hardware and others. AVID Media Composer is $2500 regular price give or take a few $100s. The EDU version is $295 . . . . . okay I am going to hop on that EDU bandwagon right now.

Just as the lenses you acquire in still/video photography will cost more than your body, software will be the major cost in building any rig.

Neither have I, but if the require a cash outlay plus a monthly fee then it'll be a non-starter for many small businesses or freelancers. If they really want their business (and maybe convert some people who use pirated versions) they'd make it a flat fee, pay as you go deal; with maybe a cheaper rate if you buy x months at a time. That would let people jump in and out of the products as they need them, get support from Adobe, and help them decide if they want to buy or continue to rent the software.

I wouldn't want to assume that Adobe is doing that way only because it sounds too nice. It'd be if you could just obtain the software via trial then rent the apps.

Just as with Apple and Thunderbolt . . . Adobe has left me with a few major questions.

OK, so we've established that you are a pirate, AND a hypocrite.

I used to pirate then stopped. A responsible businessman should and in some cases has to when they use their software and hardware for legitimate purposes. It's a major tax write off at least.

I was still in college when I was using CS1 and CS2. Either way, I eventually grew up and purchased the EDU version of the software with my own cash. And at that time by the way, hacked versions were far more unstable. You couldn't update them, you had to run patching scripts ever so often, plugins wouldn't work or would crash the system etc. It was just better to have the legit copy and keep it moving instead of spending time troubleshooting your scripts.

I don't know how it is now, but I know that it was that way up until CS3 based on the students at my job that still pirated software.

No, not 100%. You can't possibly know, unless you've surveyed every CSX pirate there ever was. Case in point. You have a full time job, and in this inflating economy, it's not enough to support your family. So, you try to do a little work on the side - just to help pay the bills. Does this person have $1200 to spend on the software? No way. Would he like to? Of course, but his family comes first.

I am sure said person (who doesn't work in the design field) would want to take up design and production as a part-time/tennis shoe money job to support their family yet doesn't have the money to get CS so they just steal it??????? :confused:

This person wouldn't want to get a part-time job that doesn't need him to steal? Or he/she could just claim he's/she's a student/educator and pay for the EDU version . . . at the VERY LEAST.

No, again. not any goofball can learn Photoshop and Illustrator. You need to have a certain amount of talent in order to make sense of the tools your are working with. Also, each one can enhance the usability of the other over time with practice, and a lot of trial and error.

Read the comment thoroughly. ANYONE can learn the apps, any goofball like you stated yourself in the bold. I didn't put any time restraint on this goofball. But I did mention that it take far more to be a good designer.

So everyone who pirates qualifies for the EDU version? Is lying to get the EDU version better than pirating the full version?

Yes it is IMHO. Far better than just taking it. At least you are paying something for someone's work. Using your student ID at the movies, camera shop for film and agitator, Apple store, etc is far better than just stealing from them out right.

No hard feelings bro.
 
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(ahem) There IS a difference. Photoshop is far more advanced that Pixelmator for P-R-O-F-E-S-S-I-O-N-A-L work. It has a deeper set of tools and features available. Why do you think it's expensive? For one, it has many plug-ins and filters built in that come from third party developers.

Why do I think it is expensive? Actually I think the cost goes up in direct relation to their douche bag-e-ness.

Citing third party filters and plug-ins as a cost factor is bogus. For one it points to their severe lack of creative growth and foresight (even they choose to swallow someone else's work and bundle it in). Most importantly if the solutions remain third party they are paid for in addition to the cost of the basic app itself by the consumer.

I have been working in this field for over 25 years now, and have taught advanced imaging to other professional designers and photographers. Very little has fundamentally been altered in terms of workflow since the early days. And, that is not a good thing. I am not saying there have not been advancements, but I could probably list the the real significant ones on two hands total. Compare those with the total cost of each upgrade and the number would be substantial. The trend for most things is to push costs down (except maybe for cable, phone, etc.). Maybe Adobe thinks they are a utility now, and deserve a fixed amount each month?

Buy whatever tool works for you period. Just because you are a "pro" (or aspire to be one) doesn't mean you have to use the so-called "professional" tool. I hear that argument all the time trying to pressure folks into a MacPro, over an iMac. For many folks the iMacs are the smart buy and provide more than ample horsepower and speed to suit their needs (at more than half the cost).
 
The very world/country you live in is build on greed, theft, slavery...and here's something new for you but your probably supporting it every day. But hey whatever you do make sure not to download anything you haven't payed for


Screw it i pay a monthly bill that allows me access to the internets...so in my twisted mind i believe that since i payed for the internets, everything that is downloadable is legit :D

so, because I live in the US I can't think something is morally corrupt?
That is an interesting perspective, especially since you have no idea what my political & moral beliefs are...
 
God, I hope so. I have been looking for a Dreamweaver replacement, not found anything yet. I have been using Pages to make epub books, like it for that more than I do InDesign. All of Adobe software is bloated, the new versions barely bring anything I need to the table, case in point...

I hated Dreamweaver every single second I used it, and made the switch to RapidWeaver instead. A lot cheaper, a lot easier to pick up, and will grow with you as your knowledge deepens. There is a huge community of third party developers that make themes, plug-ins & extensions, and the community of users & developers are pretty open-source about sharing information and providing trouble shooting when things go awry. You can download a working demo for free...
 
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