i still think premiere has a year or two left. adobe will eventually kill it for pc too. Avid free will take a chunk out of the pc nle market. vegas will become dominant in the pc world (low and mid level). iMovie users might try out avid free, if they want to move up from iMovie i can't see many going the avid upgrade path, it will be to fce or fcp.
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Adobe Premiere for Mac terminated
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i still think premiere has a year or two left. adobe will eventually kill it for pc too. Avid free will take a chunk out of the pc nle market. vegas will become dominant in the pc world (low and mid level). iMovie users might try out avid free, if they want to move up from iMovie i can't see many going the avid upgrade path, it will be to fce or fcp.
Purely from a point of choice the decision to drop the development of any program for the MAC is a bad thing.
It burdens Apple with the need to allocate resources to more and more areas of development - it furthers the island mentality of the Apple community and it requires more and more convincing on the part of Apple and of us as users that what is offered as an alternative is good or even better than what it replaces.
People are entrenched in their thinking that what worked is good and everything new is a burden. We here as users may not feel that but for everybody else out there it makes the decision to switch even harder.
In Apple's shoes i would spent an inordinate amount of resources now on the development of an Office program with all the bells and whistles and an independent WINDOWS emulator (built in as part of the box)
The next thing we will lament is the stop of the Office package and then Apple will be forced to demonstrate its superiority in that area too.
Not that they can't do it, but apart from the MHZ myth we all will then have to explain to the outside world that 'our' program beats office and still can read all Office files
It burdens Apple with the need to allocate resources to more and more areas of development - it furthers the island mentality of the Apple community and it requires more and more convincing on the part of Apple and of us as users that what is offered as an alternative is good or even better than what it replaces.
People are entrenched in their thinking that what worked is good and everything new is a burden. We here as users may not feel that but for everybody else out there it makes the decision to switch even harder.
In Apple's shoes i would spent an inordinate amount of resources now on the development of an Office program with all the bells and whistles and an independent WINDOWS emulator (built in as part of the box)
The next thing we will lament is the stop of the Office package and then Apple will be forced to demonstrate its superiority in that area too.
Not that they can't do it, but apart from the MHZ myth we all will then have to explain to the outside world that 'our' program beats office and still can read all Office files
iMovie vs FCP/FCE
Dan,
FCE is a step above iMovie in some ways and a step down in others. The BIG advantage is multiple tracks of video and audio. That together with the editing tools (such as the Ripple edit and the razor blade tool) make for very easy editing on the time line. You can SEE what you are doing, instead of sort of going blind like iMovie does...no more cutting clips in half and playing musical clips in the movie bin, no more having to worry about the iMovie time line closing up gaps in cut clips that you actually WANTED to be there. BUT, the title tools aren't as Premade. You can't just pick a funky text bounce in effect and slap it in there, you have to create it by hand...and that can take time. On top of that, many of FCP's keyframing functions have been removed...so it's even harder now to create animated titles.
Now, if you don't mind a learning curve (which mostly kicks in AFTER you at least learn the easy to use timeline) FCP is WELL worth the $999. It's got tons of features that you won't even believe...and once you learn the timeline and some Keyframing stuff, you'll wonder how you EVER got anything done in iMovie at all. Add to this some cool real-time effect and transitions, real time color correction and you take another step up. To sweeten the deal, Apple now includes the Cinema tools (probably something you don't need); Soundtrack, which lets you use Apple's loops or buy your own Acid loops to create sound tracks to your movies; Livetype, which is like a mini AfterEffects for titles and object animation (takes care of the missing premade title effects in iMovie too); and Compressor, which is similar to Cleaner and does some incredible 2 pass variable bit rate Mpeg2 encoding.
From a sheer bang for buck ratio, there isn't anything in the industry that can touch FInal Cut Pro 4.
Dan,
FCE is a step above iMovie in some ways and a step down in others. The BIG advantage is multiple tracks of video and audio. That together with the editing tools (such as the Ripple edit and the razor blade tool) make for very easy editing on the time line. You can SEE what you are doing, instead of sort of going blind like iMovie does...no more cutting clips in half and playing musical clips in the movie bin, no more having to worry about the iMovie time line closing up gaps in cut clips that you actually WANTED to be there. BUT, the title tools aren't as Premade. You can't just pick a funky text bounce in effect and slap it in there, you have to create it by hand...and that can take time. On top of that, many of FCP's keyframing functions have been removed...so it's even harder now to create animated titles.
Now, if you don't mind a learning curve (which mostly kicks in AFTER you at least learn the easy to use timeline) FCP is WELL worth the $999. It's got tons of features that you won't even believe...and once you learn the timeline and some Keyframing stuff, you'll wonder how you EVER got anything done in iMovie at all. Add to this some cool real-time effect and transitions, real time color correction and you take another step up. To sweeten the deal, Apple now includes the Cinema tools (probably something you don't need); Soundtrack, which lets you use Apple's loops or buy your own Acid loops to create sound tracks to your movies; Livetype, which is like a mini AfterEffects for titles and object animation (takes care of the missing premade title effects in iMovie too); and Compressor, which is similar to Cleaner and does some incredible 2 pass variable bit rate Mpeg2 encoding.
From a sheer bang for buck ratio, there isn't anything in the industry that can touch FInal Cut Pro 4.
Why does Apple need to allocate more resources to development? The resources they're already allocating make a good enough product to make competitors just quit?
Re: iMovie vs FCP/FCE
I'm sure Final Cut Pro is very nice, but it's a thousand dollars. If you're a hobbyist, you don't really need it. That's why Final Cut Express was invented. As someone said earlier in the thread, "Very few people use Final Cut Pro just for the hell of it."
But if you're rich, go for it
I'm sure Final Cut Pro is very nice, but it's a thousand dollars. If you're a hobbyist, you don't really need it. That's why Final Cut Express was invented. As someone said earlier in the thread, "Very few people use Final Cut Pro just for the hell of it."
But if you're rich, go for it
Well, at least we still have After Effects for another upgrade.
Here comes After Effects 6
http://www.creativemac.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?/2003/07_jul/news/ae6030707.htm
http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/main.html
Here comes After Effects 6
http://www.creativemac.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?/2003/07_jul/news/ae6030707.htm
http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/main.html
Re: iMovie vs FCP/FCE
Keynoteuser,
Thanks for the rundown on the differences. FCP does seem to be what I want to use, but I need to wait until we finish moving to our new house. I guess I'll need to wait and edit all of the baby footage and our trip to Europe when I get FCP4.
Thanks,
Dan
Keynoteuser,
Thanks for the rundown on the differences. FCP does seem to be what I want to use, but I need to wait until we finish moving to our new house. I guess I'll need to wait and edit all of the baby footage and our trip to Europe when I get FCP4.
Thanks,
Dan
This is not a surprise
FCP3 then FCP4 are so great applications... I started on Premiere 4 p until premiere 6.5... Several points:
- Premiere is a 600$+ FCP a 999$ but what a difference !!!!(soundtrack / livetype/ cinema / compressor...)... Who said FCP is expensive? Compared to the features: it is a gift
- Apple has released 2 extraordinary apps with FCP 3 and FCP4 in one year... What did Adobe do?
- Apple has created several layers with Imovie / FCP Xpress / FCP 4... What did Adobe offer?
I have been a HUGE fan of Premiere, Adobe pioneered in this area... Apple took video editing to a very high level while Adobe kept on sleeping...
I do think that the real contender now are Apple and Avid... Adobe is focusing on Windows.... This is very good for th PC users, it is a great product... Premiere makes no sense on the mac with the current competition.... This is a very good move for Adobe...
I read also "this is not good for he mac... because we need more application?"... This is not over, maybe tomorrow other companies are going to release video editing software... Today Apple and Avid have the right tools....
Now: Apple going after Photoshop? Are you guys kidding me? Who today can stand against Adobe in the image editing area...? Even if Apple wanted to go after PShop, they would never reach such quality in an acceptable timeframe... my humble opinion
Michel
FCP3 then FCP4 are so great applications... I started on Premiere 4 p until premiere 6.5... Several points:
- Premiere is a 600$+ FCP a 999$ but what a difference !!!!(soundtrack / livetype/ cinema / compressor...)... Who said FCP is expensive? Compared to the features: it is a gift
- Apple has released 2 extraordinary apps with FCP 3 and FCP4 in one year... What did Adobe do?
- Apple has created several layers with Imovie / FCP Xpress / FCP 4... What did Adobe offer?
I have been a HUGE fan of Premiere, Adobe pioneered in this area... Apple took video editing to a very high level while Adobe kept on sleeping...
I do think that the real contender now are Apple and Avid... Adobe is focusing on Windows.... This is very good for th PC users, it is a great product... Premiere makes no sense on the mac with the current competition.... This is a very good move for Adobe...
I read also "this is not good for he mac... because we need more application?"... This is not over, maybe tomorrow other companies are going to release video editing software... Today Apple and Avid have the right tools....
Now: Apple going after Photoshop? Are you guys kidding me? Who today can stand against Adobe in the image editing area...? Even if Apple wanted to go after PShop, they would never reach such quality in an acceptable timeframe... my humble opinion
Michel
{i]Originally posted by h'biki [/i]
Pretty much every mac user I know who used to use premiere now uses FCP or FCE - its market share has been complete erroded by a far superior product.
While this is true, it is no reason to be happy about this. Anytime we lose a major app, it's just one more opportunity for PC users to say, "Hey! You don't have this app, do you?" And from Adobe of all people, that's disheartening.
In addition, I know Premiere has a loyal following. Some people, I imagine, would switch to Windows (having no real preference of OS) just to use Premiere.
But this is potentially troubling news - what if Adobe killed After Effects and Photoshop for Mac?
The reason Adobe sacked Premiere was because of market share. I doubt that would ever happen to After Effects or Photoshop.
1. Steve buys Adobe just to spite them. (I havne't checked market capitalisation so I have no idea if its possible).
Not going to happen. I'm not sure of the market cap either, but I'm sure Apple could not easily do this. I don't know if it would be a wise strategic move either. Anyway, looking at Apple's purchasing decisions in the past, they have always been small, highly-specialized companies that have only a few products. Am I right? Adobe is definitely too big to swallow. To buy Adobe is to buy large portions of several sectors of software, and in some cases, almost the entire sector.
2. Apple announces its own Photoshop/AE killer (and I'm labout 90% sure they have one in development - they need to) which will be one of two things:
a) Based on GIMP (and its FilmGIMP variation). They'll tighten up the code, provide a supertight GUI.
b) Based on Shake. Shake has superior colour tools (32bit floating point internally), a superior workflow (if you get your head around the procedural aspect) and market awareness.
Either way, it'll underprice Photoshop and AE by at least 50% and be at least 200% faster cause Adobe's code sucks total ass.
You could be right, but I really disagree. Photoshop has such a strong following that it would cost a lot of resources for Apple to try to enter that market now. Apple doesn't need to enter that market because it is profitable and can sustain profitability without that market...And coding something like Photoshop is no joke. FCP is complex, too, no doubt, but Apple's new products (other than the OS of course) have tended to be small, useful programs for home/general consumer use. Anyway, Apple is not likely to make people "switch" to Mac hardware and OS by developing software for the creative folk. Why?
1) It already has a strong market share there, so it is not an efficient use of its resources to get a few more switchers there.
2) Those who use Windows and Photoshop are not likely to abandon Photoshop for Apple's new offering.
Apple's ad campaign has suggested that it is targeting the regular schmo, and its industrial design & product line have suggested that it is targeting large corporations. Those are Apple's two weakest areas.
Anyway, I don't want to see Apple making this product. It takes too much time, money, and other resources away from areas that I would like to see development and that would help more:
1) Hardware advances (maybe they could use this extra money to get a G5 in a laptop?)
2) OS advances (maybe they could use these extra programmers to hurry up with 10.3, and subsequently, 10.4?)
3) Other software advances (maybe they could use extra programmers to make tried and true software like FCP or even DVD Player better?)
4) MARKETING MARKETING MARKETING! Apple's marketing is getting better, but not great. They need to pour more money in here, IMHO!
This was very opinionated and I probably stepped on some toes. Sorry. I didn't mean to flame you h'biki, if I did. But I simply cannot agree, and you very neatly organized a lot of things that I didn't agree with so that I could respond to them more easily.
Pretty much every mac user I know who used to use premiere now uses FCP or FCE - its market share has been complete erroded by a far superior product.
While this is true, it is no reason to be happy about this. Anytime we lose a major app, it's just one more opportunity for PC users to say, "Hey! You don't have this app, do you?" And from Adobe of all people, that's disheartening.
In addition, I know Premiere has a loyal following. Some people, I imagine, would switch to Windows (having no real preference of OS) just to use Premiere.
But this is potentially troubling news - what if Adobe killed After Effects and Photoshop for Mac?
The reason Adobe sacked Premiere was because of market share. I doubt that would ever happen to After Effects or Photoshop.
1. Steve buys Adobe just to spite them. (I havne't checked market capitalisation so I have no idea if its possible).
Not going to happen. I'm not sure of the market cap either, but I'm sure Apple could not easily do this. I don't know if it would be a wise strategic move either. Anyway, looking at Apple's purchasing decisions in the past, they have always been small, highly-specialized companies that have only a few products. Am I right? Adobe is definitely too big to swallow. To buy Adobe is to buy large portions of several sectors of software, and in some cases, almost the entire sector.
2. Apple announces its own Photoshop/AE killer (and I'm labout 90% sure they have one in development - they need to) which will be one of two things:
a) Based on GIMP (and its FilmGIMP variation). They'll tighten up the code, provide a supertight GUI.
b) Based on Shake. Shake has superior colour tools (32bit floating point internally), a superior workflow (if you get your head around the procedural aspect) and market awareness.
Either way, it'll underprice Photoshop and AE by at least 50% and be at least 200% faster cause Adobe's code sucks total ass.
You could be right, but I really disagree. Photoshop has such a strong following that it would cost a lot of resources for Apple to try to enter that market now. Apple doesn't need to enter that market because it is profitable and can sustain profitability without that market...And coding something like Photoshop is no joke. FCP is complex, too, no doubt, but Apple's new products (other than the OS of course) have tended to be small, useful programs for home/general consumer use. Anyway, Apple is not likely to make people "switch" to Mac hardware and OS by developing software for the creative folk. Why?
1) It already has a strong market share there, so it is not an efficient use of its resources to get a few more switchers there.
2) Those who use Windows and Photoshop are not likely to abandon Photoshop for Apple's new offering.
Apple's ad campaign has suggested that it is targeting the regular schmo, and its industrial design & product line have suggested that it is targeting large corporations. Those are Apple's two weakest areas.
Anyway, I don't want to see Apple making this product. It takes too much time, money, and other resources away from areas that I would like to see development and that would help more:
1) Hardware advances (maybe they could use this extra money to get a G5 in a laptop?)
2) OS advances (maybe they could use these extra programmers to hurry up with 10.3, and subsequently, 10.4?)
3) Other software advances (maybe they could use extra programmers to make tried and true software like FCP or even DVD Player better?)
4) MARKETING MARKETING MARKETING! Apple's marketing is getting better, but not great. They need to pour more money in here, IMHO!
This was very opinionated and I probably stepped on some toes. Sorry. I didn't mean to flame you h'biki, if I did. But I simply cannot agree, and you very neatly organized a lot of things that I didn't agree with so that I could respond to them more easily.
Re: Its not terribly bad, but its a warning sign
What PC Preferred page? I'm curious about such a terrible thing...Do you have a link by any chance? Thanks.
What PC Preferred page? I'm curious about such a terrible thing...Do you have a link by any chance? Thanks.
Here's the link
The page was pulled after a few days, presumably after some complaints from Steve Jobs and Mac users.
The url was: http://www.adobe.com/motion/pcpreferred.html
It is now redirected.
The page was pulled after a few days, presumably after some complaints from Steve Jobs and Mac users.
The url was: http://www.adobe.com/motion/pcpreferred.html
It is now redirected.
Here's the link
The page was pulled after a few days, presumably after some complaints from Steve Jobs and Mac users.
The url was: http://www.adobe.com/motion/pcpreferred.html
It is now redirected.
The page was pulled after a few days, presumably after some complaints from Steve Jobs and Mac users.
The url was: http://www.adobe.com/motion/pcpreferred.html
It is now redirected.
Adobe Preimere and FCP
I don't understand how long it is going to take for the rest of the world to see clearly what Adobe has finally realized. It is A PC world. How long can you people hang on to the whole Mac thing.
Let it go. PC's run this world not MACs. It's just like one of those cult like things to say I'm a MAC person. Has anyone tried Preimere Pro yet. How about Pinnacle systems Edition 5. PC's are slowly becoming the main system used in Graphics and Video Production too. It's just the way it is. It's Like Beta and VHS.
Beta was a better format, but how many people do you know that rent movies on Beta. Oh that's right you can't. Get my point. I hope I didn't offend anyone.
I don't understand how long it is going to take for the rest of the world to see clearly what Adobe has finally realized. It is A PC world. How long can you people hang on to the whole Mac thing.
Let it go. PC's run this world not MACs. It's just like one of those cult like things to say I'm a MAC person. Has anyone tried Preimere Pro yet. How about Pinnacle systems Edition 5. PC's are slowly becoming the main system used in Graphics and Video Production too. It's just the way it is. It's Like Beta and VHS.
Beta was a better format, but how many people do you know that rent movies on Beta. Oh that's right you can't. Get my point. I hope I didn't offend anyone.
-A Troll!
Two and a half months and we get a troll!
-dandp
I have used Premier Pro, Avid, Media 100 and others. I prefer FCP.
Why?
There are reasons, I suggest you broaden your horizons and find out for yourself.
Sure, you may turn out to be one that prefers Premier Pro on a PC over FCP or Avid for professional broadcast, but you'd be the first.
The point that has been made in this thread ad nausium is that Adobe left Mac because it simply couldn't compete.
Two and a half months and we get a troll!
-dandp
I have used Premier Pro, Avid, Media 100 and others. I prefer FCP.
Why?
There are reasons, I suggest you broaden your horizons and find out for yourself.
Sure, you may turn out to be one that prefers Premier Pro on a PC over FCP or Avid for professional broadcast, but you'd be the first.
The point that has been made in this thread ad nausium is that Adobe left Mac because it simply couldn't compete.
Re: Adobe Preimere and FCP
Woo! A Troll!
Its funny how all the pc-using video editors have such a complex that they feel the need to tell everyone that macs are on the decline in 'the industry'.
(Now for the response, because I can)
Sure, the percentage of mac users amongst the wedding/corporate crowd is probably declining as more and more people buy Dells and convince themselves that they're editors.
But amongst post-houses mac-use is increasing. This is due to four things. 1. OS X. 2. Shake. 3. Final Cut Pro. 4. G5s.
Woo! A Troll!
Its funny how all the pc-using video editors have such a complex that they feel the need to tell everyone that macs are on the decline in 'the industry'.
(Now for the response, because I can)
Sure, the percentage of mac users amongst the wedding/corporate crowd is probably declining as more and more people buy Dells and convince themselves that they're editors.
But amongst post-houses mac-use is increasing. This is due to four things. 1. OS X. 2. Shake. 3. Final Cut Pro. 4. G5s.
Re: Adobe Preimere and FCP
Yup, what you said is about right, Macs are the superior computers, just as beta was. But there is a difference, Macs made it into pop culture and into the homes of many many consumers plus Apple still has about 80% of the creative field.
So that makes windows the vhs, a crappy poorly made knock off for the masses.
Adobe dropped premier not because more people are using windows, but rather because they could not compete with FCP, FCE, or iMovie.
Yup, what you said is about right, Macs are the superior computers, just as beta was. But there is a difference, Macs made it into pop culture and into the homes of many many consumers plus Apple still has about 80% of the creative field.
So that makes windows the vhs, a crappy poorly made knock off for the masses.
Adobe dropped premier not because more people are using windows, but rather because they could not compete with FCP, FCE, or iMovie.
Mac
You can't build your own MAC
There is Half as much software
They are really gay colors
What About Pinnacle Edition which basicly blows away any other editing platform forementioned.
You can't build your own MAC
There is Half as much software
They are really gay colors
What About Pinnacle Edition which basicly blows away any other editing platform forementioned.
Re: Mac
-All
Ok. Let's stop feeding him - he's drunk too much cool aid.
Too bad too. This was a good thread.
-All
Ok. Let's stop feeding him - he's drunk too much cool aid.
Too bad too. This was a good thread.
Pinnacle Edition
I noticed no one has choose to reply to the part about Pinnacle's Edition pro or Edition Liquid software. I guess you boys are content playing with the toy that is FCP. I understand to anyone with below average intelligence could learn to use it so I understand. They don't want to take the time to learn anything want everything easy to use, your failing to see that as business people if this stuff becomes too easy to do people won't need to hire professionals.
I noticed no one has choose to reply to the part about Pinnacle's Edition pro or Edition Liquid software. I guess you boys are content playing with the toy that is FCP. I understand to anyone with below average intelligence could learn to use it so I understand. They don't want to take the time to learn anything want everything easy to use, your failing to see that as business people if this stuff becomes too easy to do people won't need to hire professionals.
Actually, all the professionals I've ever known either use Avid or Final Cut Pro.
I think it's time to close this thread.
I think it's time to close this thread.
I'm just tring to get a good argument
Sorry guys.........to each his own I actually use Premiere, Final Cut Pro & Edition and they all have their strong points. I have just found an argument a good way to get peoples real opinions. Thanks for playing along and for all your great posts.
Sorry guys.........to each his own I actually use Premiere, Final Cut Pro & Edition and they all have their strong points. I have just found an argument a good way to get peoples real opinions. Thanks for playing along and for all your great posts.
What is so Great About FCP
I was just wondering what in particular do you people find better about Final Cut Pro. It's very Toyish. I don't understand really.
Premiere has been around a long time and there isn't anything you can't do with it. So please enlighten me. What features in particular are better. And has anyone seen Pinnacle Systems Edition. WOW!!!!!!!!!
I was just wondering what in particular do you people find better about Final Cut Pro. It's very Toyish. I don't understand really.
Premiere has been around a long time and there isn't anything you can't do with it. So please enlighten me. What features in particular are better. And has anyone seen Pinnacle Systems Edition. WOW!!!!!!!!!
-dandp
I don't know if you are going to get much help here as you've spent your new guy credit points by disparaging our choices at the start - not a good way to get people to want to help you.
I will provide this: Premiere is the toy here, FCP is build like that so that you can learn as you go, and not run out of things to learn. Premiere just doesn't have the depth.
As for the details, well, FCP4 is a 10gig install, so that would take forever. I suggest you find an Apple store, or reseller, and/or a FCPUG near you and ask them. The FCPUG you'd do best as those guys are pros and have probably used everything under the sun - I myself started editing with 3/4" tape-to-tapes in the 80's - and you won't have to deal with the marketing crap - they'll tell you what they think.
I don't know if you are going to get much help here as you've spent your new guy credit points by disparaging our choices at the start - not a good way to get people to want to help you.
I will provide this: Premiere is the toy here, FCP is build like that so that you can learn as you go, and not run out of things to learn. Premiere just doesn't have the depth.
As for the details, well, FCP4 is a 10gig install, so that would take forever. I suggest you find an Apple store, or reseller, and/or a FCPUG near you and ask them. The FCPUG you'd do best as those guys are pros and have probably used everything under the sun - I myself started editing with 3/4" tape-to-tapes in the 80's - and you won't have to deal with the marketing crap - they'll tell you what they think.