And people say Flash is dying...

[spinedoc77]

But now you are missing the point - it still doesn't matter why Flash isn't there, yet that is the question you said we all need to ask. If Flash isn't there because Jobs said so, because magic made it happen, or for technical reasons, the consequences are the same regardless. Okay, I get it, Flash is all over the web, the iPad doesn't play it.

"Oh, I thought it didn't have Flash because Apple thought it didn't suit the device. But now you tell me it's because Steve Jobs has poor intentions! Well then, I had better change absolutely none of my behavior, because what you tell me is irrelevant to everything."

When those consumers can't watch video or see a webpage, they aren't going to blame Jobs or Adobe because they have no idea what either is. They're going to blame the webpage. It doesn't matter what they blame, either, because the website loses traffic and revenue as a result either way.

What I'm asking is why don't I have the choice to use Flash or not use it on my ipad. I'm not necessarily asking why Jobs decided not to install it, and I apologize if in some small part it sounded that way and you picked that up and amplified it.

Of course I am using myself as an example of what consumers might and probably would ask, and I don't see them blaming the webpage, especially when the device right next to the ipad in Best Buy says in big letters "plays Flash".

 

[Carouser]

What I'm asking is why don't I have the choice to use Flash or not use it on my ipad.

People told you why you don't have the choice, it's been answered ad nauseam, and whatever the answer is, it's not going to change a thing either way.

Of course I am using myself as an example of what consumers might and probably would ask, and I don't see them blaming the webpage, especially when the device right next to the ipad in Best Buy says in big letters "plays Flash".

And like I said from the beginning, it will be interesting to have some real data on how many consumers picked an alternative to the iPad because of Flash.

 

[Zmmyt]

Flash and Blu-ray are the MR equivalents to Groundhog Day

thumbs up!

 

[spinedoc77]

People told you why you don't have the choice, it's been answered ad nauseam, and whatever the answer is, it's not going to change a thing either way.



And like I said from the beginning, it will be interesting to have some real data on how many consumers picked an alternative to the iPad because of Flash.

Still not the point, but anyhoo nice discussion but I don't think my point is going to sink in. Consumers WILL be asking this question as they browse between what is going to be an avalanche of tablets this season. You do realize, as I mentioned before, it's a rhetorical question, lol.

I do agree with you though that it would be VERY interesting to have some real data on who does walk away from the ipad and/or the ipad2 because of it's lack of flash. Before this point in time the ipad was really the only "ipad" in town, but things are changing real fast. Android as a smartphone OS caught up very quickly to the iphones and it seems there is very little room for error in this business, just ask windows mobile. I'm sure this is something Apple is aware of though. The other tablet makers certainly are aware of it as they see Flash as a selling point. Whether its focus groups, questionnaires, or however these companies figure out the features they will or won't include it certainly seems like they chose Flash as one of the features that would increase their sales.

 

[Carouser]

Still not the point, but anyhoo nice discussion but I don't think my point is going to sink in. Consumers WILL be asking this question as they browse between what is going to be an avalanche of tablets this season. You do realize, as I mentioned before, it's a rhetorical question, lol.

Correct, I have no idea what your point is whatsoever.

 

[MrWillie]

Amen!

Anyone who thinks iPad´s web experience is great has a couple or more screws loose in their heads, most likely because of Steve´s Kool-Aid.

Or they just don't visit Flash sites... Has NOTHING to do with Kool- Aid or my loose screws.

I already said 'demos'. Please catch up.

Inquiry.

Didn't they have a video of a Xoom running Flash ?
.

And the biggest thing, Apple is currently operating the App Store "a bit over breakeven." The impact of Flash games on their bottom line would be negligible.

I thought at their last earnings statement they said it was a billion in profit, or was that just the iTunes Store ? Isn't the App store part of the iTunes store? I don't know what type of accounting practices they use. So maybe the App store part of it was break even. Anyone know for sure ?

Why is it that so MANY of you miss the real question. The REAL question is why don't we have the choice?

Because if you had choice, you would choose to use it, and then web masters would continue using Flash. Apple wants to kill it, and I say RIP.

 

[anjinha]

I thought at their last earnings statement they said it was a billion in profit, or was that just the iTunes Store ? Isn't the App store part of the iTunes store? I don't know what type of accounting practices they use. So maybe the App store part of it was break even. Anyone know for sure ?

I think they said they had paid 1 billion dollars to app store developers, not that they had 1 billion in profit.

 

[anjinha]

Why is it that so MANY of you miss the real question. The REAL question is why don't we have the choice? It's like saying the ipad2 won't have wifi in it because when you use wifi it's been shown to decrease battery by 20%. The whole performance issue is a huge red herring, my samsung captivate runs Flash quite perfectly with no hiccups or crashes, it makes me look at my ip4 with disgust. I'm sure it uses more battery life, but this is pretty obvious. Just a lot of perpetuated myths that don't really answer the real question of why it's not on their for us to choose to use or not use.

It's an incredibly silly debate, Apple is laughing as they let the flash vs. no flash users blindly battle each other instead of asking the real questions.

Because if you had the choice to turn Flash on web developers would keep using Flash so us that really don't want to use it would have much less HTML5 content available.

 

[bri1212]

I specifically said 'demos' of those products that show Flash running flawlessly. Why doesn't anyone here believe that Apple can implement Flash if they tried?

The way Apple has taken a stand on this issue, they won't implement it on principle instead of merit.

This is not apples fault. Go whine at adobe. If adobe had tried to make flash work on osx, much less windows machines, apple wouldn't have anything to complain about. Adobe purposely did not optimize flash for osx and now, with any luck flash will fall. It has already failed!

 

[ozred]

Flash is prolific on the web. It works very well on PC's, so well that PC users play flash without giving it a second thought.

The real problem is Steve Jobs ego and his ability to con Apple users into believing it's bad. I give Steve credit for being the master manipulator. There's no one like him.

To turn thousands and thousands of otherwise intelligent people against flash is quite the accomplishment.

 

[neko girl]

I specifically said 'demos' of those products that show Flash running flawlessly. Why doesn't anyone here believe that Apple can implement Flash if they tried?

The way Apple has taken a stand on this issue, they won't implement it on principle instead of merit.

Agree with your point here.. seems like the judgment is now being made because of feelings, instead of reason.

 

[nomik2]

agree with your point here.. Seems like the judgment is now being made because of feelings, instead of reason.

thank you!

 

[neko girl]

This is not apples fault. Go whine at adobe. If adobe had tried to make flash work on osx, much less windows machines, apple wouldn't have anything to complain about. Adobe purposely did not optimize flash for osx and now, with any luck flash will fall. It has already failed!

Actually, Apple did two things:

• Mocked (yes, mocked) Adobe enough so that it motivated them to clean up their act and deliver Flash for multiple mobile devices and platforms (all competing with Apple)
• Created a hostile working relationship with Adobe such that iOS would be guaranteed to be locked out from being able to have a usable Flash plugin

This is not a smart way of going about things. If anything, Flash has continued to survive, because now Adobe IS delivering the goods to competitors (who also now seem to have dominating market share).

You can say market share is Apple's on tablets, but we've seen this story twice before now (Macs, iPhone) and we know where they'll end up (non-majority share, high margin).

The fact is, if you had Flash you would also have the option to turn it off if you didn't care for it. The point is, you don't have that option at all.

Flash isn't going anywhere. Android, webOS, etc. will ensure that.

 

[alex2792]

I would love for Adobe to put out a flash plugin on Cydia. This will guarantee that I'm picking up the iPad2.

 

[Stirolak123]

Actually, Apple did two things:

• Mocked (yes, mocked) Adobe enough so that it motivated them to clean up their act and deliver Flash for multiple mobile devices and platforms (all competing with Apple)
• Created a hostile working relationship with Adobe such that iOS would be guaranteed to be locked out from being able to have a usable Flash plugin

This is not a smart way of going about things. If anything, Flash has continued to survive, because now Adobe IS delivering the goods to competitors (who also now seem to have dominating market share).

You can say market share is Apple's on tablets, but we've seen this story twice before now (Macs, iPhone) and we know where they'll end up (non-majority share, high margin).

The fact is, if you had Flash you would also have the option to turn it off if you didn't care for it. The point is, you don't have that option at all.

Flash isn't going anywhere. Android, webOS, etc. will ensure that.

Adobe also needs to be mocked in regards to hoe crappy their photosop app is on the pad.

 

[Moyank24]

Flash is prolific on the web. It works very well on PC's, so well that PC users play flash without giving it a second thought.

The real problem is Steve Jobs ego and his ability to con Apple users into believing it's bad. I give Steve credit for being the master manipulator. There's no one like him.

To turn thousands and thousands of otherwise intelligent people against flash is quite the accomplishment.

Of course it works well on PC's. That's the problem. They didn't care enough about OS X to even try to fix it. It doesn't work well on OS X and they have had years to fix it.

Unless Steve is going into my computer and making Safari crash every time I visit a flash intensive site, he has nothing to do with my believing that it is bad. My experience has everything to do with my believing that it is bad.

 

[alex2792]

Of course it works well on PC's. That's the problem. They didn't care enough about OS X to even try to fix it. It doesn't work well on OS X and they have had years to fix it.

Unless Steve is going into my computer and making Safari crash every time I visit a flash intensive site, he has nothing to do with my believing that it is bad. My experience has everything to do with my believing that it is bad.

I've been using Macs for years and I've never experienced all of these "flash crashed my computer" stuff all SJ worshippers seem cry about.

 

[Moyank24]

I've been using Macs for years and I've never experienced all of these "flash crashed my computer" stuff all SJ worshippers seem cry about.

A) Flash never crashed my computer...only Safari.

B) Just because it hasn't happened to you, it certainly doesn't negate the experiences of others.

C) SJ Worshipers? Really? Very imaginative. And original.

 

[alex2792]

A) Flash never crashed my computer...only Safari.

B) Just because it hasn't happened to you, it certainly doesn't negate the experiences of others.

C) SJ Worshipers? Really? Very imaginative. And original.

Well, you're using Safari, which is a steaming pile of dung so therein lies the problem. Try Chrome or at least Firefox.

 

[Moyank24]

Well, you're using Safari, which is a steaming pile of dung so therein lies the problem. Try Chrome or at least Firefox.

Ohhhhh. So now it's Safari's fault? Without Flash, Safari works awesome for me.

For the record, I have to use Firefox for some work programs and flash isn't much better on it. I tried Chrome for a day and didn't like it.

 

[Androidpwns]

I specifically said 'demos' of those products that show Flash running flawlessly. Why doesn't anyone here believe that Apple can implement Flash if they tried?

The way Apple has taken a stand on this issue, they won't implement it on principle instead of merit.

Or not wanting to lose face.

 

[blipmusic]

Flash is prolific on the web.

I think we've been over this already. Go back, a page or two. Read and think over this statement.

It works very well on PC's, so well that PC users play flash without giving it a second thought.

That isn't my issue in the first place. I think you are stereo typing every Windows user for being a Flash lover, as well. Simply not true.

The real problem is Steve Jobs ego and his ability to con Apple users into believing it's bad. I give Steve credit for being the master manipulator. There's no one like him.

So when I say I've had a dislike for flash since the late 90's when my only computer was a Wintel (holding true for every computer/OS I've ever had since - i.e. every Flash iteration on either Windows or Mac OS in my case) it was Steve Jobs playing mind games with me? Makes sense. No wait you said "Apple users". My head hurts.

To turn thousands and thousands of otherwise intelligent people against flash is quite the accomplishment.

Ouch. Since I hope I'm one of these "otherwise intelligent people" I have to find my tin foil hat, quickly. In the case I do not belong to said group, I'm doomed anyway. Ignorance is bliss and all that.

 

[bpaluzzi]

I'm not saying Flash is good, it isn't and I agree. It is not based on web standards and requires plug-ins. It should die, however, Apple does not command the world's browser shares and don't have enough devices not supporting Flash to kill it.

As long as every one else supports its not going anywhere. To draw a parallel, everyone was using .mp3 and despite Microsoft, Sony and even Apple trying to kill it at different points...didn't happen. Just to remind you, .mp3 wasn't very good. It was encumbered with patent issues and was technically inferior to several formats like AAC (Apple), WMA (Microsoft) and ATRAC3 (Sony) and even 'open' formats like Vorbis and FLAC.

As someone with first-hand experience as an agency developer, I can tell you with entire certainty that Flash is dying. Nobody wants to touch it anymore. Clients don't want it, because they don't want to exclude iOS customers (who not only represent a sizable - and growing - number, but also an EXTREMELY desirable customer demographic. Both quantity and quality). And no developers want anything to do with it, because it's seen as archaic. Seriously. There are still sites written in Flash, yes. But do you really think ANY company is coming in and asking for new work to be done in Flash? Again, I can tell you from THE REAL WORLD, that they're not. In fact, we're getting briefs that specifically say "no Flash" or "must work on iPad".

Flash will stay where it belongs -- for creating feature-rich applications that need things like camera access, things that HTML can't bring you. It'll follow the trajectory Java took in the late 90s. There was a time when every "cutting edge" site had a Java applet for navigation. When is the last time you've seen that? Yes, Java applets are still around, but being used for things where it makes sense.

That's the same place Flash is going. Not "is going to go", or "will go" -- IS going.

 

[spinedoc77]

Correct, I have no idea what your point is whatsoever.

Excellent, now that we have come to that understanding we don't need to communicate anymore.

 

[spinedoc77]

Of course it works well on PC's. That's the problem. They didn't care enough about OS X to even try to fix it. It doesn't work well on OS X and they have had years to fix it.

Unless Steve is going into my computer and making Safari crash every time I visit a flash intensive site, he has nothing to do with my believing that it is bad. My experience has everything to do with my believing that it is bad.

Is this the reason for the discrepancies in experience? I am coming from an only PC background, I don't use OSx. My Flash experience has been great, I've never seen any slowdowns, bugginess or any of the other things people rant about. But I'm wondering if all the people ranting are on OSx?