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And the Truth will set you free...
- Thread starter -=XX=-Nephilim
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I can't believe it's still going too. Must have nothing else going on in his life!
Everyone please just stop egging him on. This is a bad joke at this point.
How about www.loserscomehere.com
Agree.
Someone definitely has a bug up their behind on this topic.
Of course the OP could create and start their own website the way they want it. Competition is good.
So...
- MacRumors' content does clearly lean towards a pro-apple bias. Mostly this is due to a selection bias. We tend to cover Apple, and Apple coverage tends to lean positive as a whole.
- I'm not trying to dismiss the thread content, but it should be noted that the original poster of this thread is particularly anti-Apple (or iOS) -- so his views are naturally going to believe that the site is more pro-Apple than it actually is.
- From an editorializing standpoint, I feel we remain rather neutral. In fact, I feel we are less pro-Apple than the majority of other Apple-focused sites. This is true both in selection and editorial content. A recent example was an Android story about spyware sending back SMS messages, and a lot more... due to various reasons, the story sounded like BS, so I didn't post it and told Eric not to post it. Most other Apple sites did. It later came out that the story was mostly BS.
- In isolation, the Flash story does seem a bit biased, but it was a one-off this-is-sort-of-interesting type story. Not one that we would necessarily follow-up with many others. Same rational behind the texting world record - just a "this might be interesting" but we're not planning on tracking texting world records on-going.
So, in summary. Yes, we do lean pro-Apple in story selection, but more reflective of our topic-of-coverage than a nefarious agenda. We try to stay neutral/objective. I understand why there might have been objections to the isolated Flash story, so we'll keep it in mind in the future.
arn
- MacRumors' content does clearly lean towards a pro-apple bias. Mostly this is due to a selection bias. We tend to cover Apple, and Apple coverage tends to lean positive as a whole.
- I'm not trying to dismiss the thread content, but it should be noted that the original poster of this thread is particularly anti-Apple (or iOS) -- so his views are naturally going to believe that the site is more pro-Apple than it actually is.
- From an editorializing standpoint, I feel we remain rather neutral. In fact, I feel we are less pro-Apple than the majority of other Apple-focused sites. This is true both in selection and editorial content. A recent example was an Android story about spyware sending back SMS messages, and a lot more... due to various reasons, the story sounded like BS, so I didn't post it and told Eric not to post it. Most other Apple sites did. It later came out that the story was mostly BS.
- In isolation, the Flash story does seem a bit biased, but it was a one-off this-is-sort-of-interesting type story. Not one that we would necessarily follow-up with many others. Same rational behind the texting world record - just a "this might be interesting" but we're not planning on tracking texting world records on-going.
So, in summary. Yes, we do lean pro-Apple in story selection, but more reflective of our topic-of-coverage than a nefarious agenda. We try to stay neutral/objective. I understand why there might have been objections to the isolated Flash story, so we'll keep it in mind in the future.
arn
Thanks Arn.
Using Google we get the following:
However, if we look at journalism we get:
Please note, this definition is the only one on the whole page that does mention the role of verifying and analyzing as an inherent part of the process.
If we then look at Wikipedia's summary of Journalism ethics we see:
Looking at the arguments presented in this thread it seems to come down to how one defines the word "news" as it has been the key word used in a lot of the posts up to this point.
I could be wrong, but looking a what has been said by Arn I think it's pretty clear that MR would define the "news" it provides along the lines of:
- information about recent and important Apple/Mac events; "they awaited news of the outcome"
- informal Apple/Mac information of any kind that is not previously known to someone; "it was news to me"
- Apple/Mac newsworthiness: the quality of being sufficiently interesting to be reported in news bulletins
I can see how one could be upset if they chose to interpret the "news" aspect of MR as professional journalism and product analysis. Admittedly, that interpretation would carry with it a demand for ethical unbiased evaluation and dissemination of information.
As others have stated in this thread I don't think anyone should be relying on one source for information about anything, but instead seeking out multiple perspectives. Not to be a broken record, but, as I posted before, being a forum based community allows the users of MR the ability to post their own views and experiences. If you deny this community aspect of accountability when it comes to bias then you are missing the point of this website. The checks and balances of "accuracy, objectivity, impartiality, fairness and public accountability" are provided mainly by the forum members as they debate, analyze, and question the topics and stories that are presented here.
You may disagree, but I just don't think MR claims to be a "news" site in the sense of professional journalism. Holding to that strict definition just doesn't fit and denies the community aspect of the forum base and their foundational part of the MR experience.
Using Google we get the following:
However, if we look at journalism we get:
Please note, this definition is the only one on the whole page that does mention the role of verifying and analyzing as an inherent part of the process.
If we then look at Wikipedia's summary of Journalism ethics we see:
Looking at the arguments presented in this thread it seems to come down to how one defines the word "news" as it has been the key word used in a lot of the posts up to this point.
I could be wrong, but looking a what has been said by Arn I think it's pretty clear that MR would define the "news" it provides along the lines of:
- information about recent and important Apple/Mac events; "they awaited news of the outcome"
- informal Apple/Mac information of any kind that is not previously known to someone; "it was news to me"
- Apple/Mac newsworthiness: the quality of being sufficiently interesting to be reported in news bulletins
I can see how one could be upset if they chose to interpret the "news" aspect of MR as professional journalism and product analysis. Admittedly, that interpretation would carry with it a demand for ethical unbiased evaluation and dissemination of information.
As others have stated in this thread I don't think anyone should be relying on one source for information about anything, but instead seeking out multiple perspectives. Not to be a broken record, but, as I posted before, being a forum based community allows the users of MR the ability to post their own views and experiences. If you deny this community aspect of accountability when it comes to bias then you are missing the point of this website. The checks and balances of "accuracy, objectivity, impartiality, fairness and public accountability" are provided mainly by the forum members as they debate, analyze, and question the topics and stories that are presented here.
You may disagree, but I just don't think MR claims to be a "news" site in the sense of professional journalism. Holding to that strict definition just doesn't fit and denies the community aspect of the forum base and their foundational part of the MR experience.
A good summation by Arn, and well said mscriv.
An internet forum's content as a whole generally reflects the opinions of the members more strongly than it serves as a strictly objective analysis of the facts (although there can be plenty of that as well).
An internet forum's content as a whole generally reflects the opinions of the members more strongly than it serves as a strictly objective analysis of the facts (although there can be plenty of that as well).
But you do get the feeling it does try...
The articles are well-written, well-researched, but the selection and promotion of these stories to the front page leave a lot to be desired. If the Droid 2 Flash story was put on Page 2, I don't think we'd be seeing the uproar we are getting now.
I also don't think MacRumors is pro-Apple, in the sense Apple doesn't like rumors (they even delete speculations on their forums about upcoming products) so MacRumors can be seen as anti-Apple. I don't think MacRumors has any nefarious agenda, but I can see how some feel that way. In their good intentions, they have unintentionally faulted in providing biased news stories, or stories that appeal to no-one really, or at least to only perhaps 0.001% of the Mac/iPhone userbase, like the two new iAds story.
What "uproar"? A couple of noisy posters does not constitute an uproar.
Neither "pro" nor "anti". Just "about".
As I and several others have said before, there is some selection bias (nobody can avoid that) , but to me at least the front page always seems to present a pretty neutral tone. It certainly doesn't project any kind of agenda beyond "Here's the latest".
Both Pro and Anti
I think and I like that MR is both. I like the fact that it's about Apple products that (for the most part) work well, are useful and enjoyed by the majority of users. We are all pro-Apple in that regard. But throw in some BS from Apple and the community is all over it - anti-Apple. It's really both as needed for a climate that changes as products and markets change. It's a well balanced site both by it's articles and forum member contributions by people who use Apple products and like them.
I enjoy Apple products and enjoy being part of a forum community that is basically pro-Apple. It contributes the most to my Apple experience. Nothing wrong with this forum. No complaints here.
I think this poster gave us the opportunity to examine ourselves as a community and confirmed the fact that Arn, the other leaders and the community members are doing all right. Look at the bright side.
I think and I like that MR is both. I like the fact that it's about Apple products that (for the most part) work well, are useful and enjoyed by the majority of users. We are all pro-Apple in that regard. But throw in some BS from Apple and the community is all over it - anti-Apple. It's really both as needed for a climate that changes as products and markets change. It's a well balanced site both by it's articles and forum member contributions by people who use Apple products and like them.
I enjoy Apple products and enjoy being part of a forum community that is basically pro-Apple. It contributes the most to my Apple experience. Nothing wrong with this forum. No complaints here.
I think this poster gave us the opportunity to examine ourselves as a community and confirmed the fact that Arn, the other leaders and the community members are doing all right. Look at the bright side.
But h.246 isn't Apple. Neither is Kindle. But if they're so important, why don't I see more information for flac or Nook? All I'm saying is that it's quite arbitrary and biased, but presented in a reliable news source way.
I just saw that Arn posted. I just wanted to say thank you, for acknowledging our concerns.
Morning all
Jessica, you seam like a very nice lady, hi there
Hi to all others as well who patiently waited for my reply...
@Arn
First of all, many thanks for your post and for addressing our concerns - much appreciated!
Fact that you clearly lean towards a pro-apple bias is main subject of this very thread... Generally speaking, I don't think anyone minds it really - including myself - however, there is a chunky difference between 'leaning towards bias' and spreading propaganda... Just like there is a fat distinction between objective and informative reporting which benefits your readers (and your reputation) and weak, amateur reporting which doesn't benefit anyone...
If you have read this entire thread you will realise that in fact we all agree in regards to this bias - here are only some of the quotes: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/10942761/
In regards to your - 'We tend to cover Apple, and Apple coverage tends to lean positive as a whole' - ermmm... One would hope and think that you are doing that, and yes, in majority of instances you do - but why then publish article such as 'Flash sux on Android' - https://www.macrumors.com/2010/08/2...e-on-droid-2-found-to-be-hit-or-miss-at-best/
What that article (to mention just one) has to do with Apple - apart, of course, from spreading propaganda and shoving 'kool-aid' down our throats?
I think that this very sentence kind of proves how quick this place is to conclude something which is entirely wrong...
OK, so lets deconstruct all the possible reasons why you concluded that I am particularly anti-Apple / iOS:
1. This very thread - there is nothing anti-apple here... there is plenty of anti-BS reporting though, but that's entirely different thing...
2. My signature constructed out of 3 parts:
a) Flash forever - there is nothing anti-apple here since Adobe software as well as web plug-in works perfectly on my MBP. And yes, I rather enjoy watching videos, playing games, seeing how far web design can really go etc... Hence loving Flash.
b) You bunch of Appholes - points at rather horrible thing Jobs authorised by calling bunch of SS officers to storm Giz office - it also provides link to rather funny and bang on video in regards to particular incident. Again, this has nothing to do with 'anti-apple' as such but points at single incident which wasn't handled fairly and correctly (imho)
c) Proudly boycotting iOS & iDevices since 2009 - indeed, since I am not prepared to pay premium price for crippled devices that serves as launching platform for certain draconian politics coming from Cupertino. Main one (but not the only one) being exactly Flash! Fact that we are intentionally cut short of huge chunk of internet - to me - equals to censorship, and censorship is something worth boycotting in my books...
By the way: proud owner of MBP, 20" Cinema Display and iPod Touch 2G (bought it way before boycott took the place by the way). Huge fan of Apple Mac and OS X. I am using it for both hobby and business and have no intention of changing my system any time soon...
For the end, something inappropriate - sorry in advance about this, but it is needed to illustrate my position: In your opinion, is British or American who is against the war 'anti British / American' or indeed is he 'pro British / American'. IMHO someone who stands against certain BS policies and politics coming from the top is way bigger patriot than a 'sheep' who blindly follows it.
Same in our case - by boycotting and questioning certain BS draconian politics from Cupertino I consider myself as much bigger pro-Apple fan than majority of your fans on this site... I would also like if you apologise to me if you don't mind...
One more thing, check your database on TouchArcade - you will find me there as one of the first who posted into developers section... Unfortunately, that was all before true face and real intentions of SJ (in regards to iOS) started becoming transparent...
This is nice to hear - good job there!
Glad you realised this...
It would still be nice if you publish collection of counter-arguments to that story (I have submitted quite a few directly and there are more in this very thread and all over the net) - you know, for the sake of neutrality and objectivity you are striving for...
Thanks again Arn and looking forward to even better MR than it was before this thread...
All the best!
Jessica, you seam like a very nice lady, hi there
Hi to all others as well who patiently waited for my reply...
@Arn
First of all, many thanks for your post and for addressing our concerns - much appreciated!
Arn said:
Fact that you clearly lean towards a pro-apple bias is main subject of this very thread... Generally speaking, I don't think anyone minds it really - including myself - however, there is a chunky difference between 'leaning towards bias' and spreading propaganda... Just like there is a fat distinction between objective and informative reporting which benefits your readers (and your reputation) and weak, amateur reporting which doesn't benefit anyone...
If you have read this entire thread you will realise that in fact we all agree in regards to this bias - here are only some of the quotes: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/10942761/
In regards to your - 'We tend to cover Apple, and Apple coverage tends to lean positive as a whole' - ermmm... One would hope and think that you are doing that, and yes, in majority of instances you do - but why then publish article such as 'Flash sux on Android' - https://www.macrumors.com/2010/08/2...e-on-droid-2-found-to-be-hit-or-miss-at-best/
What that article (to mention just one) has to do with Apple - apart, of course, from spreading propaganda and shoving 'kool-aid' down our throats?
Arn said:
I think that this very sentence kind of proves how quick this place is to conclude something which is entirely wrong...
OK, so lets deconstruct all the possible reasons why you concluded that I am particularly anti-Apple / iOS:
1. This very thread - there is nothing anti-apple here... there is plenty of anti-BS reporting though, but that's entirely different thing...
2. My signature constructed out of 3 parts:
a) Flash forever - there is nothing anti-apple here since Adobe software as well as web plug-in works perfectly on my MBP. And yes, I rather enjoy watching videos, playing games, seeing how far web design can really go etc... Hence loving Flash.
b) You bunch of Appholes - points at rather horrible thing Jobs authorised by calling bunch of SS officers to storm Giz office - it also provides link to rather funny and bang on video in regards to particular incident. Again, this has nothing to do with 'anti-apple' as such but points at single incident which wasn't handled fairly and correctly (imho)
c) Proudly boycotting iOS & iDevices since 2009 - indeed, since I am not prepared to pay premium price for crippled devices that serves as launching platform for certain draconian politics coming from Cupertino. Main one (but not the only one) being exactly Flash! Fact that we are intentionally cut short of huge chunk of internet - to me - equals to censorship, and censorship is something worth boycotting in my books...
By the way: proud owner of MBP, 20" Cinema Display and iPod Touch 2G (bought it way before boycott took the place by the way). Huge fan of Apple Mac and OS X. I am using it for both hobby and business and have no intention of changing my system any time soon...
For the end, something inappropriate - sorry in advance about this, but it is needed to illustrate my position: In your opinion, is British or American who is against the war 'anti British / American' or indeed is he 'pro British / American'. IMHO someone who stands against certain BS policies and politics coming from the top is way bigger patriot than a 'sheep' who blindly follows it.
Same in our case - by boycotting and questioning certain BS draconian politics from Cupertino I consider myself as much bigger pro-Apple fan than majority of your fans on this site... I would also like if you apologise to me if you don't mind...
One more thing, check your database on TouchArcade - you will find me there as one of the first who posted into developers section... Unfortunately, that was all before true face and real intentions of SJ (in regards to iOS) started becoming transparent...
Arn said:
This is nice to hear - good job there!
Arn said:
Glad you realised this...
It would still be nice if you publish collection of counter-arguments to that story (I have submitted quite a few directly and there are more in this very thread and all over the net) - you know, for the sake of neutrality and objectivity you are striving for...
Thanks again Arn and looking forward to even better MR than it was before this thread...
All the best!
^^ Very Awesome and respectful debate your having man keep it up. Your right about you not being Anti-Apple, all because your starting to dislike the iDevices (and for good reason) doesn't mean your Anti Apple I personally just want Apple to focus more on the Mac and the Software with it and make it QUALITY no more beta releases from Apple anymore (ie: Snow Leopard, even Aperature 3) I'm not the only one who feels that way either on these forums , unless my iPad can become a netbook or low end laptop equivalent (meaning file system, printing) then I may stick with it, and for those who say why would I want that!? Well Apple did release iWork for iPad and it's kinda crippled at the moment, I have got alot work done on pages but they need more funtionality on it ... Not trying to derail the thread.... So keep it up man , it's by far the most interesting thread I've been reading when I come on this site now lol.
keep it up. Your right about you not being Anti-Apple, all because your starting to dislike the iDevices (and for good reason) doesn't mean your Anti Apple I personally just want Apple to focus more on the Mac and the Software with it and make it QUALITY no more beta releases from Apple anymore (ie: Snow Leopard, even Aperature 3) I'm not the only one who feels that way either on these forums , unless my iPad can become a netbook or low end laptop equivalent (meaning file system, printing) then I may stick with it, and for those who say why would I want that!? Well Apple did release iWork for iPad and it's kinda crippled at the moment, I have got alot work done on pages but they need more funtionality on it ... Not trying to derail the thread.... So keep it up man , it's by far the most interesting thread I've been reading when I come on this site now lol.
Fascinating discussion here. Macrumors is a place where you come to find out about what's going on in the mac world and to talk to other mac users (most people probably show up here first for advice and then just kind of become attached to the community). The phrase American's have become fond of is 'it is what it is.' Much as I hate that phrase, MR is what it is.
Incidentally, on the Flash issue, there was quite a nice article in Mac |Life a few months ago. Not sure if it's online, but was pretty interesting - balanced even! fair even! - and worth the 5 mins I gave it on the toilet.
The alternative to flash is not H.264, it's html 5, btw. H.264 is a video codec.
Incidentally, on the Flash issue, there was quite a nice article in Mac |Life a few months ago. Not sure if it's online, but was pretty interesting - balanced even! fair even! - and worth the 5 mins I gave it on the toilet.
The alternative to flash is not H.264, it's html 5, btw. H.264 is a video codec.
At the risk of being pedantic, I think it's worth noting that your sig is a perfect example of selection bias - in the absence of any explanation, anyone who reads your sig is going to assume your attitude towards Apple is a wholly negative one. I don't see how one could see otherwise.
I would think that, if you're looking for apologies, you might consider reciprocating with one since you've implied many of us blindly go along with Apple's whims, which, (speaking for myself) is most certainly not the case - and I'd venture to suggest most of the other participants fall into the same category.
I'm willing to take your statement as given - will you do us a similar courtesy?
just stumbled in to this thread
Who is this guy & why is he so angry?
if I were arn or a site admin I'd delete your thread & ban your IP. But, I'm a bit of a jerk that way.
No offense intended...but, from where I sit - your approach causes you to appear as barking, simply barking & frothing at the mouth.
I really don't understand your point. Nor will I ever understand why anti-Apple types (however veiled or "subtle" they may wish to appear) even come to pro Apple sites? I've been seeing them since 2001...and, alas, they aren't in short supply.
I wonder, do anti-Windows types troll pro-Windows sites?
In any case, OP..why don't you just start your own web site? Sounds like you have plenty of motivation & (clearly) the energy. You could call it something witty like "Point, Counterpoint" or "Good Apple, Bad Apple."
Who is this guy & why is he so angry?
if I were arn or a site admin I'd delete your thread & ban your IP. But, I'm a bit of a jerk that way.
No offense intended...but, from where I sit - your approach causes you to appear as barking, simply barking & frothing at the mouth.
I really don't understand your point. Nor will I ever understand why anti-Apple types (however veiled or "subtle" they may wish to appear) even come to pro Apple sites? I've been seeing them since 2001...and, alas, they aren't in short supply.
I wonder, do anti-Windows types troll pro-Windows sites?
In any case, OP..why don't you just start your own web site? Sounds like you have plenty of motivation & (clearly) the energy. You could call it something witty like "Point, Counterpoint" or "Good Apple, Bad Apple."
^^ Very Awesome and respectful debate your having man
Hi man and thanks for your post!
Glad to see that there are fair few people about who actually understand this thread and points it's trying to address... (guys and girls who don't understand it right now, maybe will one day - who knows...)
As for 'keeping it up' - perhaps you didn't realise that with my previous post I have pretty much concluded this thread... Everything that needed to be said and pointed out has been done - so, as far as I am concerned this thread can as well be locked now...
If it remains open after this post, I am perfectly fine if someone else 'keeps it up' - if for nothing else then for it to server as a 'handy reminder' of what great debates are all about
All the best to one and all and see you soon!
