Another nail in Flash's coffin

[spiderman0616]

Why, because Apple has chosen to block one of the most widely adopted technologies on the web?

Nope, in a year or two, when Android tablets and phones far outnumber iOS devices, nobody will care that 5% of the users have a crippled devices which cannot access content. Particularly if they can't see the ads...

Nope....I don't think this is true.

A) Android doesn't even come close to outnumbering iOS. I'm talking all devices, not just phones and tablets. The iPad is a good example of what will eventually happen with the iPhone when it's available on all carriers. The numbers probably won't be quite as lopsided as they are with tablets, but it's going to be a big deal. And if you want to see a small microcosm of that, watch what happens when Verizon has the next gen iPhone. You'll get a true picture of what people really want vs. what their carrier is cramming down their throat because it's "like an iPhone".

B) People don't know that their devices are "crippled" and don't care. Did you see the survey the other day that said something like 34% of iPhone 4 owners think the 4 means 4G? People don't know what the guts are in their devices. They just want them to work and work well. Joe Schmoe doesn't even know what Flash is and doesn't care.

C) Android has some serious legal woes in its future that could hamper its progress, and I am not referring to the Apple vs. Samsun or HTC cases. It also just lost out on a major patent battle.

There are a lot of ifs in my above statement, and the tech market is very fickle, but I don't think Android is the unstoppable force that a lot of people think it is, and it surely isn't going to dominate just based on Flash.

 

[vrDrew]

Its pretty obvious that a lot of people simply don't get the iPad. Or, more specifically, they don't understand what makes the iPad successful.

The more pc-like a tablet becomes (ie. running Flash, access to a hierarchical file system, USB ports, "true multitasking", etc.) the less reason there is for people to buy it.

Those capabilities are fine in their own right. But they are all artifacts of a prior age in computing. They are THE PAST. The iPad is about the future. About a totally new way of interacting with the world through digital data.

Want a portable device that lets you edit Excel spreadsheets, while simultaneously watching a Flash video and poking around with a hierarchical file system? Congratulations! You've got a laptop, circa 1998.

 

[Meanee]

Nope....I don't think this is true.

A) Android doesn't even come close to outnumbering iOS. I'm talking all devices, not just phones and tablets. The iPad is a good example of what will eventually happen with the iPhone when it's available on all carriers. The numbers probably won't be quite as lopsided as they are with tablets, but it's going to be a big deal. And if you want to see a small microcosm of that, watch what happens when Verizon has the next gen iPhone. You'll get a true picture of what people really want vs. what their carrier is cramming down their throat because it's "like an iPhone".

I've posted few links here saying otherwise. Android does outnumber iOS devices globally and in US. Carriers are not cramming anything down anyone's throats. Dealers make money whether they sell you iPhone or Android. If a customer walks into AT&T store and wants an iPhone, he/she will walk out with one, not an android handset. Same thing with Android. If a customer walks into a Verizon store wanting Android phone, he will get Thunderbolt or something else, not an iPhone.

So you are wrong on both points.

Tablets are a different thing. iOS TABLETS vastly outnumber other tablets. But nobody knows what will happen in a future, and with Apple being too comfortable, iOS users can become a minority. And that will change a lot of sites' attitude towards Flash.

 

[Geckotek]

Yeah, well.... If you currently chose HTML5, your content will NOT be viewable on about half of the world's computers.

VERY easily resolved with a browser update. Not a good argument.

For me, it looked great. Plus a great info about the project, well presented too. You may have a stomach bug. Go look at a cute kitten, see if it makes you vomit too.

I thought it looked nice and was well presented, but loaded slow.

Want a portable device that lets you edit Excel spreadsheets, while simultaneously watching a Flash video and poking around with a hierarchical file system? Congratulations! You've got a laptop, circa 1998.

So there's no good reason an iPad shouldn't be able to do these things. LOUSY argument.

Look, I'll argue against Flash all day long, but not getting a full Excel spreadsheet functionality, why not? We have a replacement for Flash, but there is no replacement for a spreadsheet that I'm aware of. So this is something that needs to be continually supported.

But nobody knows what will happen in a future, and with Apple being too comfortable, iOS users can become a minority. And that will change a lot of sites' attitude towards Flash.

Why would it when they can code in just HTML5 w/o having to drag in Flash? Sorry, but the future is consolodation.

I just asked my buddy, who sits next to me and is our companie's web designer, if he would prefer to code in HTLM4+Flash or just HTLM5. His only concern was if the typical user that visted that site had an updated browser, otherwise he would prefer to use just HTLM5 instead of having to add Flash.

So while I see the concern about backward compatibility for some businesses, I think that this will not be a hinderance for long. More and more users are learning to update their browsers regularly. (It's the slow to update corporate PCs that drag us down)

 

[spiderman0616]

I've posted few links here saying otherwise. Android does outnumber iOS devices globally and in US. Carriers are not cramming anything down anyone's throats. Dealers make money whether they sell you iPhone or Android. If a customer walks into AT&T store and wants an iPhone, he/she will walk out with one, not an android handset. Same thing with Android. If a customer walks into a Verizon store wanting Android phone, he will get Thunderbolt or something else, not an iPhone.

So you are wrong on both points.

Tablets are a different thing. iOS TABLETS vastly outnumber other tablets. But nobody knows what will happen in a future, and with Apple being too comfortable, iOS users can become a minority. And that will change a lot of sites' attitude towards Flash.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but iOS is much more widespread than Android. I'm talking OS, not just phones, not just tablets, and not just iPods. Since they all generally run the same apps save for the tablet specific apps, it is logical to compare OS to OS. And on that front, iOS has the numbers, it has users that tend to spend more money on apps, and therefore has developer support and will continue to have developer support.

To make this relevant to the actual topic, none of the numbers game has anything to do with Flash. Tablets are not very commoditized yet, so in that market, it's very clear what the general public wants, and that is iPad. And Apple is not getting "too comfortable". iOS 5 will be a major upgrade, and Apple is always working on the next best thing. By the time Android tablets catch up to the iPad, Apple will be on to something else mind blowing.

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2011/07/15/developers-push-for-new-apples-ios-apps.html

just in case anyone is interested

 

[BaldiMac]

I've posted few links here saying otherwise. Android does outnumber iOS devices globally and in US.

No, it doesn't.

http://www.comscore.com/Press_Event...tform_Outreaches_Android_by_59_Percent_in_U.S

http://www.androidguys.com/2011/04/19/report-finds-android-eclipse-ios-install-base-year/

 

[tstarks33]

Its pretty obvious that a lot of people simply don't get the iPad. Or, more specifically, they don't understand what makes the iPad successful.

The more pc-like a tablet becomes (ie. running Flash, access to a hierarchical file system, USB ports, "true multitasking", etc.) the less reason there is for people to buy it.

Those capabilities are fine in their own right. But they are all artifacts of a prior age in computing. They are THE PAST. The iPad is about the future. About a totally new way of interacting with the world through digital data.

Want a portable device that lets you edit Excel spreadsheets, while simultaneously watching a Flash video and poking around with a hierarchical file system? Congratulations! You've got a laptop, circa 1998.

This is hilarious. Not sure if serious... there's drinking the Apple koolaid, and then there's this post. Bravo, sir!

 

[spiderman0616]

This is hilarious. Not sure if serious... there's drinking the Apple koolaid, and then there's this post. Bravo, sir!

I wouldn't say running flash is "prior age", I would just say that full blown computers are more fit to do it since they often have power to spare. You still can't replace a whole computer with an iPad or any other tablet. If you're on a mobile device, concessions have to be made for battery vs. processing power. More and more sites are accommodating for this issue these days--and until the whole web is iPad compatible, I think most people will consider the lack of Flash a small price to pay.

 

[Meanee]

No, it doesn't.

http://www.comscore.com/Press_Event...tform_Outreaches_Android_by_59_Percent_in_U.S

http://www.androidguys.com/2011/04/19/report-finds-android-eclipse-ios-install-base-year/

Good find. The Q1 numbers look different. But I do believe the trend is there for Android to take over iOS. Time will tell.

 

[spiderman0616]

Good find. The Q1 numbers look different. But I do believe the trend is there for Android to take over iOS. Time will tell.

Even if it does overtake iOS in the numbers game, iOS will win out in the developer support game or at least stay every bit as solid as it already is. And that's the most important thing. As long as your device of choice is supported, you're good to go.

 

[radiogoober]

Yes, that TheFWA was absolutely gorgeous. What a complete waste of space. Flash was completely unnecessary there and just wasted time and space and made pages take longer to load and look uglier. CSS = beauty.

 

[BaldiMac]

Good find. The Q1 numbers look different.

Different than what? Those statistics were for install base at the end of Q1.

But I do believe the trend is there for Android to take over iOS. Time will tell.

Sure. One of the articles I posted said the trend is that Android will take over iOS in a year or so. But a lot can change in a year. I think Microsoft's deal with Nokia will have a huge impact on Android. Combined with Microsoft's patent licensing deals with Android manufacturers, WebOS and Windows Phone 7 will have new opportunities to replace Android on some of these phones since the cost difference between Android and the paid OS's has been mitigated.

And more to the point of this thread, Android surpassing iOS is not necessarily a tipping point for Flash on mobile. Adobe only expects Flash to be on around 25% of smartphones by the end of the year. They've still got a long way to go. And that's ignoring the rest of the mobile market (iPod touch and "media tablets").

 

[vvswarup]

People keep touting Android tablets as giving "the full internet experience". I say BS, the iPad will suffice until I can have a Windows 8 tablet that provides a "full computing experience" instead of these limited options I now have for productivity apps such as Excel. I consider that much more of a hinderance than the lack of Flash.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "full computing experience" and how Windows 8 fulfills that.

 

[Meanee]

I'm curious as to what you mean by "full computing experience" and how Windows 8 fulfills that.

I think it's due to very touch-friendly nature of Windows 8 and underlying classical interface. Not sure how that will apply to ARM-based Windows 8 tablets, but I think we are still quite a long time away from seeing that.

 

[Meanee]

Yes, that TheFWA was absolutely gorgeous. What a complete waste of space. Flash was completely unnecessary there and just wasted time and space and made pages take longer to load and look uglier. CSS = beauty.

CSS compares to Flash how?

Also, if you enable Flash on your browser, you may be able to hold the vomit back long enough to actually see the site.

 

[vrDrew]

This is hilarious. Not sure if serious... there's drinking the Apple koolaid, and then there's this post. Bravo, sir!

Instead of sneering and mocking people, why don't you try this little thought exercise:

Can you think of any reason why pre-emptive multitasking might be a bad idea on a device like a tablet?

Because, trust me, there are some very real reasons why this is so. And if you can't answer that question, then I don't think you know as much about computers as you think you do. But more to the point, people who swallow marketing nonsense from RIM and HP and Samsung without at least questioning it are the ones who really ought be concerned about "drinking Koolaid."

Hint

 

[Geckotek]

I'm curious as to what you mean by "full computing experience" and how Windows 8 fulfills that.

I think it's due to very touch-friendly nature of Windows 8 and underlying classical interface. Not sure how that will apply to ARM-based Windows 8 tablets, but I think we are still quite a long time away from seeing that.

I'm hoping for full support of MS Office. Being the biggest money maker for MS, we should see it happen.

 

[palpatine]

Its pretty obvious that a lot of people simply don't get the iPad. Or, more specifically, they don't understand what makes the iPad successful.

The more pc-like a tablet becomes (ie. running Flash, access to a hierarchical file system, USB ports, "true multitasking", etc.) the less reason there is for people to buy it.

Those capabilities are fine in their own right. But they are all artifacts of a prior age in computing. They are THE PAST. The iPad is about the future. About a totally new way of interacting with the world through digital data.

Want a portable device that lets you edit Excel spreadsheets, while simultaneously watching a Flash video and poking around with a hierarchical file system? Congratulations! You've got a laptop, circa 1998.

this is fascinating logic. i don't get it, but i think i get the ipad

while other consumers may want to live in the future with their beautiful ipad, new ways of interacting with digital data, hobbled productivity apps, etc. i want to live in the present with a device that gets stuff done. that device may or may not come from apple.

the ipad has made me so much more productive, and is really a great addition to my workflow. i am thrilled. but, it has some serious limitations that i keep running up against. i hope a tablet with full functionality is near.

you can keep your future ipad. i am excited about the prospect!

 

[radiogoober]

this is fascinating logic. i don't get it, but i think i get the ipad

while other consumers may want to live in the future with their beautiful ipad, new ways of interacting with digital data, hobbled productivity apps, etc. i want to live in the present with a device that gets stuff done. that device may or may not come from apple.

the ipad has made me so much more productive, and is really a great addition to my workflow. i am thrilled. but, it has some serious limitations that i keep running up against. i hope a tablet with full functionality is near.

you can keep your future ipad. i am excited about the prospect!

I think the point is this: Android users seem to want a tablet version of a modern computer. Ie, file system, ability to run crappy flash animations, customize it to look like a middle-schooler's aesthetics, etc. Android users basically want to sit there and look at their tablet "desktop" and enjoy pretty widgets and animated backgrounds. They basically want a laptop with no keyboard and a touch screen.

Us Apple zealots, on the other hand, believe (see, I could have been an ass and put "realize") that a tablet should be a extremely functional and no BS device. It should run our apps and run them perfectly. The tablet should become whatever app it's running. I don't want to have to F around with file systems, permissions, (defrag when it comes to a Windows tablet - LOL kidding), or anything else. I want my tablet to be simple. If I want to screw around with a file system, I have a laptop. I realize that the tablet is not meant to be a complete laptop replacement. I don't sit there and look at my laptop's home screen. I pick it up because I need to use an app and use it. The apps are numerous, beautiful, and extremely functional. Android simply can't compare in this regard.

Edit: added picture of a typical Android user's customization of their tablet (kidding)

Edit2: Did anyone see the new Android phone: http://gizmodo.com/5821278/lets-just-pretend-this-isnt-the-facebook-phone Wow... Another quality Android device. (Yes I'm being sarcastic. This is exactly what I'm always saying: Android is spammed on all sorts of crap devices.)

 

[Meanee]

Nope, Android users want a tablet that just works, and runs apps, plus does more. And it does work exactly that way.

As an Android phone user, I remember last time I had to mess with permissions was due to a temporary root. Phone manufacturer will unlock my phone early September, and permissions will no longer matter.

File system? Yes, I love being able to use more than 1 music player, more than 1 video player, without uploading same file to multiple programs, eating up all the space on my screen.

I want to be able to turn on the device, and with one glance see current headlines, dime/date, my upcoming appointments and traffic. Without going to 5 different apps to accomplish it. And guess what. It works that way.

 

[BaldiMac]

Nope, Android users want a tablet that just works, and runs apps, plus does more. And it does work exactly that way.

As an Android phone user, I remember last time I had to mess with permissions was due to a temporary root. Phone manufacturer will unlock my phone early September, and permissions will no longer matter.

File system? Yes, I love being able to use more than 1 music player, more than 1 video player, without uploading same file to multiple programs, eating up all the space on my screen.

I want to be able to turn on the device, and with one glance see current headlines, dime/date, my upcoming appointments and traffic. Without going to 5 different apps to accomplish it. And guess what. It works that way.

Good for you!

 

[darngooddesign]

...Want a portable device that lets you edit Excel spreadsheets, while simultaneously watching a Flash video and poking around with a hierarchical file system? Congratulations! You've got a laptop, circa 1998.

Sounds like my laptop circa 2011.

 

[radiogoober]

Nope, Android users want a tablet that just works, and runs apps, plus does more. And it does work exactly that way.

I guess you didn't see this?

http://blog.flurry.com/bid/66618/iPad-2-and-Verizon-iPhone-Take-Some-Wind-Out-of-Android-s-Sail

I feel so bad for Android users. They bought their device on the hopes and dreams of one day having apps to run, and developers are fleeing the Android platform faster than a cat can licks its ass.

 

[spiderman0616]

Nope, Android users want a tablet that just works, and runs apps, plus does more. And it does work exactly that way.

As an Android phone user, I remember last time I had to mess with permissions was due to a temporary root. Phone manufacturer will unlock my phone early September, and permissions will no longer matter.

File system? Yes, I love being able to use more than 1 music player, more than 1 video player, without uploading same file to multiple programs, eating up all the space on my screen.

I want to be able to turn on the device, and with one glance see current headlines, dime/date, my upcoming appointments and traffic. Without going to 5 different apps to accomplish it. And guess what. It works that way.

My parents bought a Galaxy Tab and it didn't "just work". They brought it to my house to see what I thought of it, and I was shocked at how buggy it was, being that it is the only tablet I would ever buy other than the iPad 2, and therefore being the one I recommended to them because of limited 3G coverage in their town. I messed with it for about 15 minutes--in those 15 minutes it crashed 3 times and needed a full reboot to become responsive again. Rotating the screen orientation was painful as it took several seconds to respond. Flipping back and forth to other screens was equally painful.

They bought the Galaxy Tab because they live in the country and have really bad internet service. US Cellular, however, has very good service at their house, and since they only use their computer for internet access, they were considering the Galaxy Tab on a 3G plan to be the solution. But they thought it was going to function more like an iPad (honestly, so did I) and it just didn't. Mind you, this was the old Galaxy Tab, not the new model, but I still expected a lot more. I feel bad that I recommended it to them because they were very excited about it.

 

[spiderman0616]

I guess you didn't see this?

http://blog.flurry.com/bid/66618/iPad-2-and-Verizon-iPhone-Take-Some-Wind-Out-of-Android-s-Sail

I feel so bad for Android users. They bought their device on the hopes and dreams of one day having apps to run, and developers are fleeing the Android platform faster than a cat can licks its ass.

I posted that link earlier too and it wasn't acknowledged. I think they're hoping nobody notices.