Anyone else abandoning ship?

[MacStu09]

As I type this on my company issued 2017 MBP 15... I backspace to fix the double strikes. I bang harder on the keyboard to get some to type. I constantly have to deal with dongle hell just to do my daily job functions. I don't have the physical keys I need to touch type my way through my job.

I am a HUGE Apple fan. I have been an all in guy for a decade plus. But this is just getting ridiculous. I'm serious considering bouncing off to Linux because M$ is just not an option in my mind. I'm not going back to virus hell. I'm just wondering if I'm alone? Is this part of the plan? Is Apple pushing us to iPad Pros? It just feels like I got a "MacBook Plus" not a "Pro" machine. By that I mean it seems like somebody let a marketing person convince them that they could up sell people out of MacBook with bells and whistles and didn't bother giving a Pro line machine features and function I needed.

Again, I'm not some Windows or Android zealot here to start a flame war. Just a hardcore Apple guy wondering what Apple is thinking these days and if they just aren't that "into" the laptop market anymore?

For work, I jumped ship a while back. Windows hasn't been the virus pit you remember for several years, now. I've had significantly more issues with macOS in the past few years. Though I do still prefer to use my Macbook Pro for personal use/multimedia at home, there's no way I could go back to any current mac for work. Everything on my windows setup just works how it's supposed to and is open to the upgrades I need.

Depending on what your job requires, I'd highly consider switching for work purposes.

 

[rboerdijk]

Typing this on the 15" mbp2013, likely the last mbp I'll ever purchase. Been exclusive on Apple-hardware since ~2008 but started looking around and got a Hades Canyon early last year. It's actually surprisingly good for a decent price.

Still purchased a 2018 mac mini which should keep me going for 5+ years - hopefully extend the lifetime of my mpb - and if it breaks _maybe_ I'll still get the cheapest Apple-laptop for light work (mainly used as an ipad with keyboard).. or maybe not even that.

Prices are getting crazy, started in 2008 with a 15" mbp with nvidia for ~1800... Cheapest option now would be ~3200 and that's compromising on non-upgradable battery, no magsafe, keyboard which apparently has issues, non-upgradable ram, no usb-ports, no sdcard-slot, ... Kind of feel like I'm getting an expensive bad deal... That's money to buy a nice used car for, honestly - not a computer.

Background: Software development, including xcode... So that means 1 less programmer developing Apple software. Interestingly enough I met another developer I didn't see quite a while last weekend, he also went mac exclusively since ~2008 and he's he bought components first time in 10 years to build together his own pc. More people are looking for alternatives.

 

[ibivibiv]

guys, there are a lot of great pc laptops at CES this year. give them a look.

That’s what I was thinking. If I can get something with the right ports and put Linux on it with some Wine and remote to a powerhouse iMac as was suggested I might just break from the walled garden. Just really don’t want to, but Apple isn’t helping things lately. Oh and I’m not wanting to hackintosh.
[doublepost=1547423676][/doublepost]

I've been running Hackintoshes for the past 6 or 7 years and they've been more troublefree than my 2018 MBP. That says something.

The black art. Yeah it’s tempting but I just don’t know. I was thinking Mint or just straight Ubuntu.
[doublepost=1547423977][/doublepost]

That’s what I was thinking. If I can get something with the right ports and put Linux on it with some Wine and remote to a powerhouse iMac as was suggested I might just break from the walled garden. Just really don’t want to, but Apple isn’t helping things lately. Oh and I’m not wanting to hackintosh.
[doublepost=1547423676][/doublepost]

The black art. Yeah it’s tempting but I just don’t know. I was thinking Mint or just straight Ubuntu.

Oh and this Did devolve a little into a flame war I understand people like theirs and that’s fine I was more interested in other people having thoughts like mine

 

[my_mac_flickers_wtf_apple]

Great discussion guys, here's my input from a fresh Mac convert (Windows all my life, but I owned iPhones previously).

Windows 2000-XP-8 was a minefield of BSODs and poor UX/UI design choices like not having virtual desktops, lack of gestures and windows 8's ugly start menu. But W10 was a significant improvement in terms of stability, security, has trackpad precision + gesture support and more programming tools (docker support now on windows and bash shell). I still get BSODs once in a while but it recovers and it's very rare compared to the 2000s.

I decided to switch to macOS because my cheapo windows 10 laptop always got some type of driver issue (mind you its a $700 laptop that has lasted me a good 2 years). As I am typing this on my MBP2018 Vega 20, I am constantly being aware of which keys I am typing and to not touch the touchbar by accident to accidently bring to me a new page or bold some text I don't want. I am also constantly hitting backspace as I don't get the usual tactile feedback of a normal laptop keyboard (I actually switched back to cheapo windows laptop and enjoyed typing on that more!). I also like to game and the mac ports are often poorly optimized (partly Apple and game dev's fault) - beamsync sometimes comes on and limits the FPS to 60 - this thing can push 200, why APPLE!

I am also getting very rare flickers on my MBP monitor, something I NEVER GOT on windows. See the poll here to know that 50% of users are also getting it.

Along with macOS's poor window management (paning to left and right) I was not as impressed as I would be for this expensive machine. I don't know why my other-programmer buddies rave about MBPs, maybe because they used the older models but this thing is likely going back to Apple - I'll pick up a cheaper MBP/MBA for iOS/xCode and buy a real Windows beast for gaming and virtualization.

I definitely feel Apple has abandoned their mac line to focus on their portables business, there's nothing special about the mac other than some integration (iMessage) + bash shell (which Windows has now). I still give props to Apple for customer support + global warranty, something Microsoft can't touch at all.

 

[bobbie424242]

I have been considering a lenovo thinkpad. Then installing a VM with linux to try out for awhile. The thinkpads have great keyboards and they have really come down in price over the years. Mac keyboard sucks. no ports sucks. paying 4x what a product is worth sucks. windows sucks. linux looks like to be my only option these days.

ThinkPad are great, built like tanks. I'm typing this message on one at the moment (it replaces a MacBook Pro 2014 as I needed a faster machine). The keyboard is proper and if it needs to be changed (or anything else for that matter) a Lenovo technician comes at home to just replace it instead of replacing the whole top case. And these machines are Lego, you can replace any part, even order them from Lenovo for years. ThinkPad is the the other rare laptop line that has a huge cult following, along with MacBook.

 

[jeremiah256]

Over the years I've always dabbled with other OSes, sometimes because of work, but mostly just to see if I was missing anything important. In the past, it's been an easy win for Apple. Today, it's not so easy in some categories. Amazon, and in my case, Google, have been nibbling on the edges, tempting me with devices that 'just work' with my current home setup with little to no compromises.

I don't have a HomePod, for instance, I use Google Minis. Worked right out of the box with my Smart TV and BluTooth enabled sound bar. I like my Apple Watch, but realistically, coming from a Pebble Classic, a fitness band for 25% of the price would cover 90% of my requirements. When this one dies, I'll see what else is available. My Chromecasts devices fit in with no issues and I use them more than I use my Apple TVs. No one has anything that comes close to replacing my iOS devices (for the way I use them), but if my Mac died today, I'd look at PCs as possible contenders for my money.

 

[Altis]

I have been considering a lenovo thinkpad. Then installing a VM with linux to try out for awhile. The thinkpads have great keyboards and they have really come down in price over the years. Mac keyboard sucks. no ports sucks. paying 4x what a product is worth sucks. windows sucks. linux looks like to be my only option these days.

I picked up a ThinkPad last year to replace my 17" MBP. I found one second-hand, only 6 weeks old for USD $280 (CAD $375). Balance of warranty, 1080p IPS display, user-replaceable SSD and RAM, all the ports I actually use, an excellent keyboard, and the extended battery that gets about 15-18 hours. Linux seems to be well-supported on ThinkPads in general.

Sure, it could have a nicer display and higher specs, but it feels very refreshing to get so much for so little. Only thing is I really miss the 17" display size (even if I don't miss the footprint that 17" laptops have).

 

[GtrDude]

Abandoning ship?
Yes, definitely.
I will not bend over again for Apple and their silly engineering which may be good in theory but has nothing to do with real-life.
I've been using Lenovo X1 Carbon and the T-470 (with extra batteries) machines lately. Superbly fantastic keyboard and amazing mouse. Plus I love having the track point.
Also love being able to unplug a battery when it gets low and pop in another one and the laptop stays on the whole time.
Real product oriented machines. Not the fluffy fairy dust from Apple.

 

[greenmeanie]

Try UbuntuMate distro and pick the macos theme you will probably never miss Apple again.

As I type this on my company issued 2017 MBP 15... I backspace to fix the double strikes. I bang harder on the keyboard to get some to type. I constantly have to deal with dongle hell just to do my daily job functions. I don't have the physical keys I need to touch type my way through my job.

I am a HUGE Apple fan. I have been an all in guy for a decade plus. But this is just getting ridiculous. I'm serious considering bouncing off to Linux because M$ is just not an option in my mind. I'm not going back to virus hell. I'm just wondering if I'm alone? Is this part of the plan? Is Apple pushing us to iPad Pros? It just feels like I got a "MacBook Plus" not a "Pro" machine. By that I mean it seems like somebody let a marketing person convince them that they could up sell people out of MacBook with bells and whistles and didn't bother giving a Pro line machine features and function I needed.

Again, I'm not some Windows or Android zealot here to start a flame war. Just a hardcore Apple guy wondering what Apple is thinking these days and if they just aren't that "into" the laptop market anymore?

[doublepost=1547437580][/doublepost]Is it the blue spots on the screen you like or is it flexgate?

Get the keyboard fixed then? You never had an electronic device break on you?



And I am enjoying the ability to connect all my peripherals + display + charging cable via a single port



Everybody's needs are different and its very much possible that the current MBP doesn't satisfy yours. At the same time, your needs are not the golden standard of "pro computing". The MBP has some of the best displays in the industry, one of the fastest internal storage systems, fastest WiFi in any laptop, most flexible connectivity of all the laptops, and its a compact device hosting high-end performance components while still offering full day battery life. What about this is not pro?

Yeah, there are some issues with the design that result in higher chance of certain failures compared to some of the previous MBP models. Maybe (since we don't have any reliable statistics on this to begin with). And it's not like the competitors are any more reliable.

 

[ibivibiv]

Maybe I can try the HP Spectre x360s... they are decent machines and if I ever want to enter the "dark arts" they are extremely compatible. They have all the useful ports and keys as well. That's one of my biggest gripes. Oh and is it me or did all of a sudden the laptops now won't boot without power in the battery? In days past you could plug in a fully dead laptop and it came right up. Now it seems you need battery charge. So if my battery fails I am SOL as opposed to in the past just being tethered to a power cord until I can get the battery replaced? Maybe I am wrong but the battery -> plugin icon leads me to believe they did change that. SMH. It's also too bad you can't even Hackintosh your way into CUDA workloads either. So many things got cut, I wonder if they even were tracking these things?

 

[greenmeanie]

If you don't need top of the line graphics run this with ubuntumate.
https://consumer.huawei.com/us/tablets/matebook-x-pro/

 

[ibivibiv]

Tempting.... but no HDMI again. For the foreseeable future that's the weapon of choice in most conference rooms and halls. Very nice laptops though. I'm feeling more and more like I'm circling the Spectre's and Asus Zenbook Pro's. Both disprove the nonsense that you can't have a thin laptop and keep the HDMI. Go home Jony... you're drunk lol.

 

[AbleD]

I’ve been using Macbooks for 10 years. But at this point I’d jump ship in an instant if it wasn’t for final cut pro x. Continuing to ship laptops with high keyboard failure rate is turning apple fans into haters. In short term Apple’s making more money because of Applecare purchases. Long term they are losing brand loyalty.

 

[leman]

Maybe I can try the HP Spectre x360s... they are decent machines and if I ever want to enter the "dark arts" they are extremely compatible.

Do you really think that the grass is greener on the other side? Look at HP support forums, lots of users complaining about problems with their spectre...

If you want to get a PC laptop that compares to MBP in reliability, I’d recommend workstation class machines. Consumer laptops cut corners.

 

[elmarjazz]

Yes - at least for me - its a ‘diffecult’ time to be thinking of a new MAC. My MBP 17” had another GPUs failure awhile back, and another MBP purchase at this time with all the issues (imagined or not) posted about has me feeling like its a roll of the dice. An ‘old’ 2017 iMAC may be the safest bet, but would rather keep with a portable. An iMAC + iPad Pro combination?

But in some ways maybe its a ‘sign’ - as good a time for change as any - and I’ve been thinking of venturing out into ThinkPad and Linux territory. Keyboard, ports, durable, not as much ‘fun’ maybe but just work, just a better value it seems in general.

I’d miss Mac OS, the familiar support routine (2 MBPs 2011 and their many times failed GPUs, so I’m saying this somewhat sarcastically), and moving everything to a new system is not going to be fun. Still not sure about Windows but needing to be using at work these days anyway, and there is Linux for personal.

Still on a fence at this time for myself, but for sure I’ll be getting a ThinkPad T480s for my son’s first computer very soon, and going to see how that goes.

 

[Ries]

Next time write something more constructive, calling people names is not an argument by itself.


"If even 2% of users had failing keyboards, that's a MAJOR fail."

That's right, even if 2 percent of all keyboards were defective, that means there is high chance that one you would get in return would be a flawless one.

If the failure rate is 2% for the first month, and it keeps the rate through use, the chance of no issue after a year is 75%, 62% after 2 years and 48% after 3 years.

 

[leman]

If the failure rate is 2% for the first month, and it keeps the rate through use, the chance of no issue after a year is 75%, 62% after 2 years and 48% after 3 years.

The only quantitative survey that was ever done on the matter of keyboard failures of 2016/2017 models claims that the keyboard failure rate is twice as high compared to the 2015 models. Its a very large increase (and that's why you have extended warranty on it), but nowhere close to 25% of failure rate in the first year. "Real" keyboard failures are probably somewhere in the ballpark of 3-7% in the first year (and lower in subsequent years), which is very high, but well within the industry averages. User behaviour and operation environment appear to play a decisive role, as the recurrence rate is very high.

 

[Martius]

I hope we will see some non-Apple laptops with 16:10 (or even 3:2) screens soon. I know it sounds silly, but for me it's kind of a dealbreaker. I hate 16:9 screens. I wish that the Dell XPS 15 had 16:10, because except the screen, it checks all "the boxes" for me.

 

[leman]

At any rate, anyone who thinks about dropping Apple in hopes to get a more reliable laptop is deluding themselves. The industry average for premium laptop failures within the first year is around 10%. It doesn't really matter which brand you buy. All laptops have systematic design weaknesses and are prone to this or that problem. You might get unlucky with your Apple purchase — or even multiple times so in a row if the store got a bad batch of machines — and then get lucky with the Lenovo or a Dell. Or your experience might be even worse. It all comes down to chance.

The reason why MBP is perceived as problematic is simply because of exposure. Apple draws a lot of attention and while their overall computer market share is not very high, the market share among premium models IS. Practically all laptops Apple sells are premium laptops and they grab a lion's share of Intel's high-end chips. There are many more MBP owners than Dell XPS owners, for example, and so the shier amount of people who experience a problem is higher.

I've been buying dozens of laptops — virtually all Macs — per year for our organisation for last 6+ years — and I have observed absolutely no decrease in reliability in 2016+ models. From approx. 20 2016/2017 models we own, only one had an issue with sticky keys (replaced by our service provider within 2 hours). None of the 2018 models have been crashing or showing any other problems, except one that was destroyed by a careless employee mere weeks after they have received it. Its a reliability history I'd take any time. In contrast, every single Lenovo and Dell we bough has suffered a catastrophic failure less than a year from purchase. The sample size is very small and its all anecdotal, but it does pain a picture which is consistent with general reliability surveys and reports.

 

[maflynn]

It just feels like I got a "MacBook Plus" not a "Pro" machine.

I am seriously considering selling my MacBook Pro. My line of thinking is that I have a fully functionong machine, no problems, but I do have concerns about its longevity. I'm kind of thinking why treat this laptop so delicately and walk on virtual eggshells when I spent so much money. Instead, I'll sell it, and opt for a windows machine.

I have been considering a lenovo thinkpad.

That's on my short list as well as a couple of other makers.

 

[richinaus]

At any rate, anyone who thinks about dropping Apple in hopes to get a more reliable laptop is deluding themselves. The industry average for premium laptop failures within the first year is around 10%. It doesn't really matter which brand you buy. All laptops have systematic design weaknesses and are prone to this or that problem. You might get unlucky with your Apple purchase — or even multiple times so in a row if the store got a bad batch of machines — and then get lucky with the Lenovo or a Dell. Or your experience might be even worse. It all comes down to chance.

The reason why MBP is perceived as problematic is simply because of exposure. Apple draws a lot of attention and while their overall computer market share is not very high, the market share among premium models IS. Practically all laptops Apple sells are premium laptops and they grab a lion's share of Intel's high-end chips. There are many more MBP owners than Dell XPS owners, for example, and so the shier amount of people who experience a problem is higher.

I've been buying dozens of laptops — virtually all Macs — per year for our organisation for last 6+ years — and I have observed absolutely no decrease in reliability in 2016+ models. From approx. 20 2016/2017 models we own, only one had an issue with sticky keys (replaced by our service provider within 2 hours). None of the 2018 models have been crashing or showing any other problems, except one that was destroyed by a careless employee mere weeks after they have received it. Its a reliability history I'd take any time. In contrast, every single Lenovo and Dell we bough has suffered a catastrophic failure less than a year from purchase. The sample size is very small and its all anecdotal, but it does pain a picture which is consistent with general reliability surveys and reports.

Spot on. The grass is not greener, but the same shade of yellow........

If you look accross the ranges of other brands too and it is actually scary how many different models they supply and have to support. I simply cannot believe I will get better service from any of them. As for Lenovo, bought a thinkpad product once and it was turd [anecdotal of course].
[doublepost=1547463971][/doublepost]

I am seriously considering selling my MacBook Pro. My line of thinking is that I have a fully functionong machine, no problems, but I do have concerns about its longevity. I'm kind of thinking why treat this laptop so delicately and walk on virtual eggshells when I spent so much money. Instead, I'll sell it, and opt for a windows machine.


That's on my short list as well as a couple of other makers.

Didn’t you get a Razer 15 and send it back before buying the MBP?

 

[Ma2k5]

At any rate, anyone who thinks about dropping Apple in hopes to get a more reliable laptop is deluding themselves. The industry average for premium laptop failures within the first year is around 10%. It doesn't really matter which brand you buy. All laptops have systematic design weaknesses and are prone to this or that problem. You might get unlucky with your Apple purchase — or even multiple times so in a row if the store got a bad batch of machines — and then get lucky with the Lenovo or a Dell. Or your experience might be even worse. It all comes down to chance.

The reason why MBP is perceived as problematic is simply because of exposure. Apple draws a lot of attention and while their overall computer market share is not very high, the market share among premium models IS. Practically all laptops Apple sells are premium laptops and they grab a lion's share of Intel's high-end chips. There are many more MBP owners than Dell XPS owners, for example, and so the shier amount of people who experience a problem is higher.

I've been buying dozens of laptops — virtually all Macs — per year for our organisation for last 6+ years — and I have observed absolutely no decrease in reliability in 2016+ models. From approx. 20 2016/2017 models we own, only one had an issue with sticky keys (replaced by our service provider within 2 hours). None of the 2018 models have been crashing or showing any other problems, except one that was destroyed by a careless employee mere weeks after they have received it. Its a reliability history I'd take any time. In contrast, every single Lenovo and Dell we bough has suffered a catastrophic failure less than a year from purchase. The sample size is very small and its all anecdotal, but it does pain a picture which is consistent with general reliability surveys and reports.

It is difficult to really grasp how big or small an issue is as no one has actual figures - I remember someone in one of the threads here who had a similar set up to you - a company which bought MacBook's for their whole team, who actually had the opposite experience to you in that, while he had very little issues pre-2016, post-2016 he mentioned that they had to return/replace a lot of machines so experienced far less reliability. Then we have people who say they have had really good experiences with Lenovo/Dell in their office (we use Lenovo Carbon X1's in our office and I don't think there has been much issues). So I don't really know anymore.

I guess the other angle is, the fact other machines also have issues doesn't really sit well when the MacBook may have been purchased at up to £750-£2,000+ premium (depending on spec) over the competitor. As soon as you pay more, you don't want it to be as reliable as the competitor, but much more.

 

[Spoon!]

I’ve not had any problems with my 2017 MBP 15” keyboard. I would’ve gotten it replaced if it was that bad.

 

[maflynn]

Didn’t you get a Razer 15 and send it back before buying the MBP?

Yes, the return was done in part by the hope/promise of a better keyboard in the MBP. That hasn't fully materialized to a great degree. I use windows for work, so any possible transition will be smooth and in fact is a bit easier remoting into work using windows, vs. macOS. Don't get me wrong, I do like macOS and that's the OS of my choice but at the moment, the other major factor for returning the Razer was the Apple ecosystem. Yet as I type on my MBP today, I'm not seeing that dividend as much as I used too.

Regarding the Razer, it had a lot going for it, and few things against. The 2019 model fixed some of those short comings, and that's what made me think, or rather re-think about my life choices with regards to the Mac.

 

[Ma2k5]

Yes, the return was done in part by the hope/promise of a better keyboard in the MBP. That hasn't fully materialized to a great degree. I use windows for work, so any possible transition will be smooth and in fact is a bit easier remoting into work using windows, vs. macOS. Don't get me wrong, I do like macOS and that's the OS of my choice but at the moment, the other major factor for returning the Razer was the Apple ecosystem. Yet as I type on my MBP today, I'm not seeing that dividend as much as I used too.

Regarding the Razer, it had a lot going for it, and few things against. The 2019 model fixed some of those short comings, and that's what made me think, or rather re-think about my life choices with regards to the Mac.

Great that the 2019 version has finally added secondary function key back-lighting and Windows Hello. I do wish however they changed the keyboard layout so that the right FN key disappeared. Seriously, pressing FN instead of the right arrow key is a developer nightmare (when using it to do Home/End functions).