Anyone else abandoning ship?

[ondert]

I also don't agree that they don't care about the Mac Line-up. MacBook Pro has been updated on schedule, MacBook Air has just been updated and is also good, and Mini has made a surprise resurrection (and it's as good as ever).
And in 2017 they released the iMac Pro.

I kinda disagree with you on that. Macbook Pro got updates yearly but some of them were quite late like 2016 and 2018 updates. Also, "making always thinner and shiny" habit led to major problems like keyboard, T2 chip, overheating and throttling issues. MacBook Air got update like more than 3 years and Mini got it after 4 years which are insane. I like the way how Mini is more powerful than before. Not changing the chassis is not a problem for me but that thing definitely needs more cooling. However, for the MacBook Air things got a bit complicated. They have added finally a retina screen but have risen the price just below to the MacBook Pro 13 which makes it quite unattractive. Also, that 8th gen. Y-series cpu should have been inside the Macbook 12". Now, I really don't know what they are going to do with macbook line-up.
MacBook Air got the cpu of Macbook 12". Then, are they going to kill the fanless model? And, the cpu that MacBook Air should have get is inside the nTB MacBook Pro 13". I thought they would kill the nTB MacBook Pro and replace it with Air.

Is that worth using a Mac over a PC?

Yep, definitely worths for me. I'm having many FaceTime calls during the day and messages also. Using a Mac let me to answer all without interrupting my work on the iMac. For once, I built a pc, yes it too performs great but couldn't use it more than 4 months and sold it because of that integrity.

 

[jerryk]

At any rate, anyone who thinks about dropping Apple in hopes to get a more reliable laptop is deluding themselves. The industry average for premium laptop failures within the first year is around 10%. It doesn't really matter which brand you buy. All laptops have systematic design weaknesses and are prone to this or that problem. You might get unlucky with your Apple purchase — or even multiple times so in a row if the store got a bad batch of machines — and then get lucky with the Lenovo or a Dell. Or your experience might be even worse. It all comes down to chance.

The reason why MBP is perceived as problematic is simply because of exposure. Apple draws a lot of attention and while their overall computer market share is not very high, the market share among premium models IS. Practically all laptops Apple sells are premium laptops and they grab a lion's share of Intel's high-end chips. There are many more MBP owners than Dell XPS owners, for example, and so the shier amount of people who experience a problem is higher.

I've been buying dozens of laptops — virtually all Macs — per year for our organisation for last 6+ years — and I have observed absolutely no decrease in reliability in 2016+ models. From approx. 20 2016/2017 models we own, only one had an issue with sticky keys (replaced by our service provider within 2 hours). None of the 2018 models have been crashing or showing any other problems, except one that was destroyed by a careless employee mere weeks after they have received it. Its a reliability history I'd take any time. In contrast, every single Lenovo and Dell we bough has suffered a catastrophic failure less than a year from purchase. The sample size is very small and its all anecdotal, but it does pain a picture which is consistent with general reliability surveys and reports.

You experience is what most of the large companies we interact with are seeing.

All laptops fail in the low single digit percentages. Their biggest issues are user damage and theft vs hardware failures. Macs seem to be a bit easier to maintain software wise. But price wise are not a great value, so often not as widely distributed.

Internal software developed for their business usually targeting Windows over Macs. But, more often these days much is web based, so client agnostic.

Popups and other web attacks are often a non issue, because they lock their user's browsers from black listed sites. Phising is handled by corporate mail servers that lean toward isolating rather than passing on suspect email.

 

[ibivibiv]

Spot on. The grass is not greener, but the same shade of yellow........

If you look accross the ranges of other brands too and it is actually scary how many different models they supply and have to support. I simply cannot believe I will get better service from any of them. As for Lenovo, bought a thinkpad product once and it was turd [anecdotal of course].
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Didn’t you get a Razer 15 and send it back before buying the MBP?

I think people are missing that I have 2 problems. One is the build quality and the other is the thing took important features that I needed and tossed them in favor of ones I have no use for. The Touch Bar is not something I care about. I want hard keys for ESC (oh god why did they do this?), and the other function keys. I don't care about having to look down and figure out what that gimmicky Touch Bar wants me to do. Also USB-C is fantastic for desktop type applications but on the go I need utility in my ports. It is also counter-intuitive to have to carry adapters everywhere. I would say if they had put a few USB-C TB3 ports in with at the minimum an HDMI this would have radically changed my position. However by going with only one port profile they failed me hard.

That's also why I won't be picking up a Huawei Matebook or whatever those are. No HDMI = No sale. I'll probably put the MacBook Pro work gave me in a drawer and use a Linux something instead. It really is just frustrating though. Maybe they'll come around or the world will catch up with their vision of ports and keyboards? Who knows.

 

[jerryk]

Yes, the return was done in part by the hope/promise of a better keyboard in the MBP. That hasn't fully materialized to a great degree. I use windows for work, so any possible transition will be smooth and in fact is a bit easier remoting into work using windows, vs. macOS. Don't get me wrong, I do like macOS and that's the OS of my choice but at the moment, the other major factor for returning the Razer was the Apple ecosystem. Yet as I type on my MBP today, I'm not seeing that dividend as much as I used too.

Regarding the Razer, it had a lot going for it, and few things against. The 2019 model fixed some of those short comings, and that's what made me think, or rather re-think about my life choices with regards to the Mac.

I am hearing a lot of good things about the Razer. I work in the Machine Learning area and a lot of users are happy to see Razer being one of the first to user Nvidia RTX 20xx cards in the Razer 15. A fast machine with a lot of computer power is just what ML/AI engineers want.
[doublepost=1547482304][/doublepost]

..

That's also why I won't be picking up a Huawei Matebook or whatever those are. No HDMI = No sale. I'll probably put the MacBook Pro work gave me in a drawer and use a Linux something instead. It really is just frustrating though. Maybe they'll come around or the world will catch up with their vision of ports and keyboards? Who knows.

More systems are sporting USB-C. The advantages in terns of size and performance are real. But, some companies also still give you one USB-A to easy the transition. But, I have no doubt that a few years those will be gone.

 

[SDColorado]

It can be cheaper if you time it right with the incentives, I was looking at the X1E at Christmas and you could get a nicely configured machine for about 2,000. The keyboard is top notch, I heard the trackpad is decent, and battery life is ok. I give Apple credit in squeezing out a lot of life from their batteries, but by the same token, the battery [in the lenovo] is not glued in and easily replaced compared the cost and major effort (new top case) for the MBP.

Agree. If you watch for their sales/coupons, you can find spots where you can get up to 25% savings. It is a good deal, but it is all in the timing.

Trackpad on the X1E is good. I didn't care for it as much as the MBP, but it makes up for it with the keyboard, which is first rate and can be user replaced. The Lenovo battery doesn't last as long as the MBP, but it does recharge significantly faster. If you can plug in at periods during the day, it can help offset that. The Lenovo warranty is also cheaper and "co-pays" not as exorbitant.

 

[OdT22]

Yeah, and that cannot be underestimated. I just used airplay to easily send some photos from my iPhone to the Mac. Of all of the integration, I do enjoy using messages on the Mac. Is that worth using a Mac over a PC? I don't think anyone can answer that for me, its one of those advantages to stay within the apple ecosystem.

Much agreed.

This crossroad came about last summer for me, as I was assessing what to do about several windows 7 PCs at work later this year. I was pretty happy with Mac for personal use, and I was serious about converting our company over to Mac for everything. I took a long hard look with an open mind, as best I was able to.

But that path led me to giving Windows 10 an honest chance first. And I'm very happy that I did. Some of the Mac/iOS convenience is missed admittedly, but not nearly as much as I would have previously guessed.

So far, we have replaced an iMac, a MBP (w a surface pro and a surface laptop), 2 iPhones (w 2 Pixels), and removed 2 iPad Pros. One of 4 PCs at work have been upgraded to W10. 3 more to go.

It all has been pretty painless and largely uneventful really. Not nearly worth the hype drawn out on these forums. It all just works. Very little of my time has been spent troubleshooting the new workflow, once some interface kinks were worked out (damned time clock).

No regrets so far. We still have a few Apple devices for the kids and our vehicles. But we have enjoyed the switch and are getting along just as well as before. The best part has been removing the uncertainty of our future computer needs and the costs involved.

 

[maflynn]

Trackpad on the X1E is good. I didn't care for it as much as the MBP,

Apple does a lot of things right, and one of those is the trackpad, even now in 2019, they are far ahead of everyone. I'm not fan of the force touch, but it works and the palm rejection is top notch.

For what ever reason, I'm lusting after the new Razer's, maybe because I did like what I had previously. I don't have to rush into any decision, but right now what is high importance for me is peace of mind. Do I have peace of mind that the MBP will last 4, 5 or 6 years? I have serious concerns that my keyboard is a ticking timebomb. Its working great, I have no complaints (other then feel and key travel) but will I be facing a keyboard replacement in the coming years. The lack of tactile function keys/touch bar are just icing on the cake of a feature that I have no need for.

 

[SDColorado]

Apple does a lot of things right, and one of those is the trackpad, even now in 2019, they are far ahead of everyone. I'm not fan of the force touch, but it works and the palm rejection is top notch.

For what ever reason, I'm lusting after the new Razer's, maybe because I did like what I had previously. I don't have to rush into any decision, but right now what is high importance for me is peace of mind. Do I have peace of mind that the MBP will last 4, 5 or 6 years? I have serious concerns that my keyboard is a ticking timebomb. Its working great, I have no complaints (other then feel and key travel) but will I be facing a keyboard replacement in the coming years. The lack of tactile function keys/touch bar are just icing on the cake of a feature that I have no need for.

I don't blame you regarding the new Razer. I gave the current model several long looks, but there where just a few niggles that seem to be largely addressed in the new model. If they had the new model when I was looking, I would probably be typing on one now

Asus Studio S is appealing as well. It is a bit on the heavier side, but it is a huge display for that size footprint.

 

[ibivibiv]

I am hearing a lot of good things about the Razer. I work in the Machine Learning area and a lot of users are happy to see Razer being one of the first to user Nvidia RTX 20xx cards in the Razer 15. A fast machine with a lot of computer power is just what ML/AI engineers want.
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More systems are sporting USB-C. The advantages in terns of size and performance are real. But, some companies also still give you one USB-A to easy the transition. But, I have no doubt that a few years those will be gone.

I think I can stomach no USB-A... no HDMI? That is just willfully being ignorant of reality for several years to come. Every conference room and hall I go to has an HDMI cable hanging there for use. HDMI doesn't even break their thinness obsession. I like the specs of USB-C. I think it replaces USB-A for sure. However, HDMI is here and will stay for a long time. It's just silly to not put that port on a laptop.

 

[maflynn]

This crossroad came about last summer for me,

Me too this past summer, but in some ways, I learned the hard way. I underestimated the advantages of a staying in the ecosystem when I got a windows macbine. I hedged my bet, and returned the Razer that I bought (it had some short comings that have largely been resolved in this latest iteration), and rolled the dice on the MBP. I had hoped that apple fixed the keyboard issue on this model and maybe to some degree they did, but with people chiming in here at MR about their 2018 laptops needing keyboard repairs, I'm now re-assessing my dedication to the platform. I've been chugging away on windows for work stuff these past week (I have a bootcamp partition) and I'm pretty happy with my efficiency

 

[turbineseaplane]

no HDMI? That is just willfully being ignorant of reality for several years to come. Every conference room and hall I go to has an HDMI cable hanging there for use.

Totally agree - just used HDMI on my 2015 15" last night actually..
I also use the SD slot about 3x/week right now.

Yes - I could get dongles...but it's pretty nice to not have to worry and always have those very useful ports built in.

 

[jerryk]

I think I can stomach no USB-A... no HDMI? That is just willfully being ignorant of reality for several years to come. Every conference room and hall I go to has an HDMI cable hanging there for use. HDMI doesn't even break their thinness obsession. I like the specs of USB-C. I think it replaces USB-A for sure. However, HDMI is here and will stay for a long time. It's just silly to not put that port on a laptop.

HDMI is a big wide connector. I see other laptops without HDMI ports or with mini HDMI that still require a dongle. For example, Lenovo use mini-Display port instead of HDMI in some of their smaller Thinkpad models.

I present at conferences a bit and had no issues just using and USB-C to HDMI (and USB-A). Most conferences I go to these days even have USB-C adapters on lecterns as part of the speaker set up.

 

[ibivibiv]

Totally agree - just used HDMI on my 2015 15" last night actually..
I also use the SD slot about 3x/week right now.

Yes - I could get dongles...but it's pretty nice to not have to worry and always have those very useful ports built in.

Yeah I remember a day when there was an awkward moment in a conference room because some Windows laptop failed. Now there is an equally awkward moment when someone asks a person with a new MacBook Pro to plug in to show their screen. It's just not a good look for Apple. HDMI is a basic function, it's not a peripheral thing.

 

[revmacian]

As I type this on my company issued 2017 MBP 15... I backspace to fix the double strikes. I bang harder on the keyboard to get some to type. I constantly have to deal with dongle hell just to do my daily job functions. I don't have the physical keys I need to touch type my way through my job.

Why not just tap the fn key twice and use dictation instead of typing? This may require that dictation be enabled (can't remember) in System Preferences > Keyboard > Dictation. I find dictation to be faster and easier than typing, but YMMV.. aaannd I might just be too lazy to type.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Yeah I remember a day when there was an awkward moment in a conference room because some Windows laptop failed. Now there is an equally awkward moment when someone asks a person with a new MacBook Pro to plug in to show their screen. It's just not a good look for Apple. HDMI is a basic function, it's not a peripheral thing.

Also - and I know this is probably not the normal experience - my spouse who does have a 2016 and dongles...well we constantly find the dongles to not be nearly as reliable and consistent as the built in ports. Frustrating as hell to get the display output to work right through the dongle sometimes - never can figure out the why/how of the flaky behavior either.

 

[ibivibiv]

HDMI is a big wide connector. I see other laptops without HDMI ports or with mini HDMI that still require a dongle. For example, Lenovo use mini-Display port instead of HDMI in some of their smaller Thinkpad models.

I present at conferences a bit and had no issues just using and USB-C to HDMI (and USB-A). Most conferences I go to these days even have USB-C adapters on lecterns as part of the speaker set up.

Agreed, its getting better in spots. You can find a good setup in the podium sometimes. I just think its a bad call by Apple. They made their bank on "It just works". That's how they won my business. They made commercials on how awkward other products were. Now they are committing the same mistakes.
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Why not just tap the fn key twice and use dictation instead of typing? This may require that dictation be enabled (can't remember) in System Preferences > Keyboard > Dictation. I find dictation to be faster and easier than typing, but YMMV.. aaannd I might just be too lazy to type.

I think my coworkers would kill me lol. Good idea though.

 

[Howard2k]

The 2015 MBPro has faster wifi than the current Lenovo Extreme too (up to 1.3Gb/s vs up to 867MB/s). The Lenovo looks like a great laptop but there's room for improvement.

 

[ibivibiv]

The more I think about this, the answer might just be dropping back a generation. The guts of the laptop will be lesser, but at least I'll get what I need again. I may just hit the used/refurb market. Great discussion though here. Much better than most. Usually this topic devolves into flaming lol. Its hard to discuss tough topics in a zone where people are brand friendly.

 

[revmacian]

The more I think about this, the answer might just be dropping back a generation. The guts of the laptop will be lesser, but at least I'll get what I need again. I may just hit the used/refurb market. Great discussion though here. Much better than most. Usually this topic devolves into flaming lol. Its hard to discuss tough topics in a zone where people are brand friendly.

I would definitely look at the Apple Refurbished page. My current MacBook Pro (purchased 11 days ago) is a refurb from Apple and I still can't believe it's a refurb - the only difference was the box it came in. The battery on this 2017 refurb had 3 cycles on it and the outer case is flawless. Not to mention I saved $300.00.

 

[ibivibiv]

I would definitely look at the Apple Refurbished page. My current MacBook Pro (purchased 11 days ago) is a refurb from Apple and I still can't believe it's a refurb - the only difference was the box it came in. The battery on this 2017 refurb had 3 cycles on it and the outer case is flawless. Not to mention I saved $300.00.

Oh I'll be dipping back to the last model with the ports and better keyboard w/ no Touch Bar. I think that might just be the winning move. Agreed too, the refurbs from Apple are top notch.
[doublepost=1547486298][/doublepost]

Oh I'll be dipping back to the last model with the ports and better keyboard w/ no Touch Bar. I think that might just be the winning move. Agreed too, the refurbs from Apple are top notch.

Good news too... looks like they still have decked out 2015s!

 

[revmacian]

Oh I'll be dipping back to the last model with the ports and better keyboard w/ no Touch Bar. I think that might just be the winning move. Agreed too, the refurbs from Apple are top notch.
[doublepost=1547486298][/doublepost]

Good news too... looks like they still have decked out 2015s!

I've seen some people review the 2015 models and are still happy with them these days. If the number of 2015 refurbs sold is high enough hopefully that might get Apple to think about why those machines are still popular in 2018/2019.

 

[jerryk]

Agreed, its getting better in spots. You can find a good setup in the podium sometimes. I just think its a bad call by Apple. They made their bank on "It just works". That's how they won my business. They made commercials on how awkward other products were. Now they are committing the same mistakes.

It would not be the first misstep on where the port standards were going. They jumped on the Firewire, SCSI, IEEE-488 and other interface bandwagons before.

As they say, you can tell a trailblazer by the arrows in their backs.

 

[Falhófnir]

I do keep changing my position on this, but I think what will probably end up happening is I will wait it out until the 2020 redesign is announced and if no improvement on the KB front (or any other avoidable major issues show up in the first gen) I will probably throw in the towel on the Mac. Perhaps I will get a refurbed Air once they appear and/or come down in price to play with and keep a toe in the ecosystem once my mbp becomes unserviceable but don’t think I’ll be plowing a big lump of money into a new pro... there’s that little something in the back of my head telling me not to go in for this current generation, as much as I’m raring to for the svelte design.

 

[ibivibiv]

It would not be the first misstep on where the port standards were going. They jumped on the Firewire, SCSI, IEEE-488 and other interface bandwagons before.

As they say, you can tell a trailblazer by the arrows in their backs.

Yeah I agree they have always been notoriously putting ports on their products that are not widely supported. But in those times they also had useful ports. The thing that was stunning this time was the "all in" approach and going from one set of technologies to one choice and one choice only. It all feels like someone from the iPhone/iPad team showed up and was given power in the MacBook team. Either way I think I'm jumping in my Delorean and heading back to 2015 lol.

 

[jerryk]

Yeah I agree they have always been notoriously putting ports on their products that are not widely supported. But in those times they also had useful ports. The thing that was stunning this time was the "all in" approach and going from one set of technologies to one choice and one choice only. It all feels like someone from the iPhone/iPad team showed up and was given power in the MacBook team. Either way I think I'm jumping in my Delorean and heading back to 2015 lol.

Actually they did give someone power over the Mac (and other product) teams, Jony Ive, an industrial designer, in 2015. He was dropped back to head of design in Dec 2017. But by then ...