Anyone else abandoning ship?

[turbineseaplane]

Because it's a feature that deals with securing a computer's configuration and data. It compliments the OS nice.

Ok, that's fine, but you just said:

I disagree. It is all about everything is put together, how everything works together, and not about specific features.

It either "is" about specific features and how it all works together -- or it is "not".
You can't play this both ways just to support macOS.

Windows has plenty of great features that complement its experience and contribute to how Windows all works together also.

 

[petvas]

Specific features that were designed with the whole user experience in mind. This is what's important. Windows has indeed some great features, but there is no real thought behind the overall user experience. It varies greatly, depending on the hardware and software combo. This is not exactly the case in macOS, since Apple has close control of the overall experience. Some might find that to be a disadvantage, but for me this is a big advantage over Windows.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Specific features that were designed with the whole user experience in mind. This is what's important. Windows has indeed some great features, but there is no real thought behind the overall user experience. It varies greatly, depending on the hardware and software combo. This is not exactly the case in macOS, since Apple has close control of the overall experience. Some might find that to be a disadvantage, but for me this is a big advantage over Windows.

It's cool to have an OS preference, but you're making it impossible to debate anything of substance here as the rules and the "what" we are talking about keep moving all over.

Windows has loads of great features, and most features in any OS tend to have the "whole user experience in mind".

We are just talking past each other at this point.

You prefer macOS - I generally do as well.
I'm not nearly as excited about Mac hardware though.

I'd like more choices and variety in Mac hardware.

I don't enjoy being beholden to some thin obsessed over minimalist and idealistic "design" team in a white room in Cupertino.

 

[petvas]

You're just moving the goalposts all over the place man.

It's cool to have a preference, but you're making impossible to debate anything of substance here as the rules and the "what" we are talking about keep moving all over.

Whatever. I guess it doesn't make sense to talk about it any longer. Everyone has his/her own preferences. For my needs macOS is much better. For your needs maybe not. I am not changing any rules, I am just stating my opinion by giving you examples of how macOS provides a better experience. Of course features matter, but not when examined alone. Features must be examined in the context of the overall user experience. This is what I said from the beginning, but I guess you didn't get it. Let's move on.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Of course features matter, but not when examined alone. Features must be examined in the context of the overall user experience. This is what I said from the beginning, but I guess you didn't get it.

Let's talk about that real quick..

What's an example or 2 of Windows features that you feel weren't implemented in a way that is beneficial to the overall user experience?

 

[Jg75]

Hello world,
I said I abandoned ship, but I don't, sorry about that. I used an Acer pc with windows 10 for 3 days. I got a full refund for it, thanks.
The truth is, macOS has no competition. In my VMware fusion I have win7 pro, ubuntu bionic beaver, and mint. However they best belong inside a vm. Sorry that I said abandoning ship. If Apple doesn't fix their keyboards I abandon computers altogether. There are no other computers on the market. Cheers. Sent from my 2015 MBP.

 

[petvas]

Let's talk about that real quick..

What's an example or 2 of Windows features that you feel weren't implemented in a way that is beneficial to the overall user experience?

UWP apps integration in the OS is awful. UWP apps are crippled and have significant performance issues, compared to Win32 apps.
Having two control panels for performing the same or similar tasks is confusing to most people. If you need to change advanced settings, there are a zillion ways to do that, but none is really clear. You have the registry, the new settings, the old control panel and god knows what else, depending on what you want to change.
Then there is the stability issue that hunts Windows from time to time. My Surface Mouse and keyboard would many times stop working and I had to repair them. This has been happening on three Surface Books..
Other things have to do with the way Windows Updates or firmware updates work. Especially when performing a firmware update, you are in a hit or miss situation, depending on the hardware in use. Again, if I speak about the Surface Book 2, I had many situation where it was not possible to install a new firmware, and the only way was to completely start fresh. The whole driver model in Windows is old and has many issues. Of course Microsoft has a more difficult task than Apple, since they have to deal with many different hardware configurations, but this is not something that has to interest normal users.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Having two control panels for performing the same or similar tasks is confusing to most people.

Agreed

If you need to change advanced settings, there are a zillion ways to do that, but none is really clear. You have the registry, the new settings, the old control panel and god knows what else, depending on what you want to change.

Power users actually enjoy that flexibility you know...

Then there is the stability issue that hunts Windows from time to time.

Hmm..macOS and t2 chip/bridge crashing OS ring a bell?

Especially when performing a firmware update, you are in a hit or miss situation, depending on the hardware in use.

Again - that's not a drawback that is a Windows issue..
The entire possibility of using whatever hardware you want is a HUGE positive for many people.

Of course Microsoft has a more difficult task than Apple, since they have to deal with many different hardware configurations, but this is not something that has to interest normal users.

For some it's a positive, some not.
"Normal users" is pretty subjective.

I appreciate your responses, but honestly nothing you've shared screams "macOS is better" or anything to me. macOS is just different and has it's own set of huge disadvantage as well as advantages.

As I said above, I generally prefer macOS, but I do use both and think Windows gets a bad rap these days that's largely not deserved anymore honestly. Its flexibility scores it a LOT of points in my book.

 

[SDColorado]

Its flexibility scores it a LOT of points in my book.

The flexibility in Windows is nice. For example with my Surface Pro, I even have the flexibility for simple things like choosing what happens when I push the power button, the sleep button, when I close the lid. Those settings can be different for battery and for when plugged in.

With my MacBook Pro, however, Apple has decided those choices for me with no way to change them in System settings. Every single button on the keyboard is a power button. every.single.one. Do I *really* need the 7 key to be a power button? the ~ key? The backslash? Does anyone? If you like that feature that's fine. But for those of us who don't, why can't we just disable that behavior in System Preferences and have only the power button be the power button?

Same with opening the lid. Maybe... just maybe... I might not want it to power on as soon as I open the lid. Why can't that be configured in System Preferences?

 

[Mendota]

The MacApp Store is not great, but it is significantly better.
The MacBook does not have a tablet mode for many reasons. One of them is that these kind of things never really work well. On the Surface Book 2 you cannot use tablet mode on battery for more than 1,5 hours. It is pretty unusable.

You are really reaching. But as a Windows user let me explain a few things to you.

1. Unlike with Apple, Windows users are not being trained to use the app store. Microsoft does not take a 30% cut so has no need to try and force it's use. As a Window user the app store is a nice additive to the whole Windows experience, not the main experience. It does come in handy if you are using small or low powered Windows devices as the software there is usually less demanding. And it also works if you are setting up a bullet proof system for someone (such as an older or non tech person) as it can be set to prevent apps outside of the store.

2. Surface Book can be turned around and attached if one needs the extra battery or wants to continue using the dedicated GPU. I often do this as I am a graphic artist, and I use Corel Painter and Draw this way. Detaching it altogether works well when you want the lightest table, for example passing it around for other to view. In addition the tablet only portion can be charged separately.

3. The tablet mode works very well on the surface devices, especially if you want to do serious work with real applications. I have an iPad pro and I use it for drawing, but it can't began to hold the light for using Surface with Painter, Rebelle, etc.
4. Most of my software is purchased online straight from the venders that make it. That way I can read their updates and use their help forums, as well as give feedback. And this is how it is done on Windows.

 

[richinaus]

You are really reaching. But as a Windows user let me explain a few things to you.

1. Unlike with Apple, Windows users are not being trained to use the app store. Microsoft does not take a 30% cut so has no need to try and force it's use. As a Window user the app store is a nice additive to the whole Windows experience, not the main experience. It does come in handy if you are using small or low powered Windows devices as the software there is usually less demanding. And it also works if you are setting up a bullet proof system for someone (such as an older or non tech person) as it can be set to prevent apps outside of the store.

2. Surface Book can be turned around and attached if one needs the extra battery or wants to continue using the dedicated GPU. I often do this as I am a graphic artist, and I use Corel Painter and Draw this way. Detaching it altogether works well when you want the lightest table, for example passing it around for other to view. In addition the tablet only portion can be charged separately.

3. The tablet mode works very well on the surface devices, especially if you want to do serious work with real applications. I have an iPad pro and I use it for drawing, but it can't began to hold the light for using Surface with Painter, Rebelle, etc.
4. Most of my software is purchased online straight from the venders that make it. That way I can read their updates and use their help forums, as well as give feedback. And this is how it is done on Windows.

So you are describing your niche use as a graphic designer [didnt know people used Corel still btw].

I agree the surface book works well as a drawing tablet. Not sure as a ‘tablet’ though. I also prefer the apps on my iPad Pro to apps within windows to do my sketching. But all my use is about getting ideas down and not final art work, where the ipad trumps it for me.

I think you are really reaching to prove windows is ‘better’. The thing is all these tools do have purpose and benefits over others, but it simply boils down to what you are using then for. I would say for the majority of users, it doesnt really matter which OS they use. For specific niche workflows, I agree use what is best.

And for transparency I probably use windows and macOS 50/50.

 

[turbineseaplane]

didnt know people used Corel still btw

Coming back to the Mac in fact!

https://www.macrumors.com/2019/03/12/coreldraw-2019-mac/

 

[SDColorado]

You are really reaching. But as a Windows user let me explain a few things to you.

1. Unlike with Apple, Windows users are not being trained to use the app store. Microsoft does not take a 30% cut so has no need to try and force it's use. As a Window user the app store is a nice additive to the whole Windows experience, not the main experience. It does come in handy if you are using small or low powered Windows devices as the software there is usually less demanding. And it also works if you are setting up a bullet proof system for someone (such as an older or non tech person) as it can be set to prevent apps outside of the store.

A couple of other problems I have found with purchasing Apps from the App store are...

1) Sometimes vendors offer better deals on upgrades and those deals don't apply to the App store versions. I found it is better to buy directly from the vendor when possible. But this is a minor reason...

2) A bigger one is that a few years ago someone attempted to hack my Apple ID. I contacted Apple for assistance with it and they screwed up my AppleID, locking both me and themselves out of it. The end result was that I had to create another Apple ID and all the software/Apps that were purchased on the old Apple ID were lost to me. That was an expensive screw-up, but they claimed that they had no way to recover the account.

How did they do it? The rep that was helping me basically forced a temporary password and a recovery key, but failed to take note of what either was. Then the following apply. The only thing I still had left after she made the changes was the trusted device.

As noted above, two-step verification requires at least two of the items below to sign in successfully:

• Your Apple ID password
• Access to one of your trusted devices
• Your Recovery Key

If you've permanently lost any two of these items, you can't sign in or regain access to your account. You'll need to create a new Apple ID. You can create a new one from the Apple ID site.

 

[Mendota]

So you are describing your niche use as a graphic designer [didnt know people used Corel still btw].

I agree the surface book works well as a drawing tablet. Not sure as a ‘tablet’ though. I also prefer the apps on my iPad Pro to apps within windows to do my sketching. But all my use is about getting ideas down and not final art work, where the ipad trumps it for me.

I think you are really reaching to prove windows is ‘better’. The thing is all these tools do have purpose and benefits over others, but it simply boils down to what you are using then for. I would say for the majority of users, it doesnt really matter which OS they use. For specific niche workflows, I agree use what is best.

And for transparency I probably use windows and macOS 50/50.

Given that one of the main points of the iPad pro is the pencil and using it for drawing, I don't think it is as niche as you think. Corel is as always the number one natural painting software on both Windows and Mac, so I don't know what you are talking about there. I realize that Apple is really pushing iPad as the use case for Apple users as they don't have a Mac with built in digitizers and using a separate tablet to draw with is not the best answer when using a laptop. But on the desktop most graphic artists that I know and experience, use Corel and are both Mac and Windows users.

As a tablet I prefer my Surface Pro, but I do like being about to hand around the Surface book tablet at meetings. I don't think that Windows is better for everyone, and maybe not you. But the reasons for using either system depend on the use case. My point was in answer to the poster that was trying to imply that MacOS was the best system.

 

[macgeek18]

I have moved away from Apple laptops. I currently have a Pixelbook that serves my mobile needs while my work laptop and personal Thinkpad collect dust. I can remote into my work desktop and remote into my home linux desktop all from ChromeOS these days. My 2012 13" MBP that my wife uses is nearing it's end and I'm planning on getting her a high end Chromebook for school work and browsing and a MacMini for her desk. I feel that is the way Apple is going anyways. lightweight mobile devices and desktops for heavy work.

 

[richinaus]

Given that one of the main points of the iPad pro is the pencil and using it for drawing, I don't think it is as niche as you think. Corel is as always the number one natural painting software on both Windows and Mac, so I don't know what you are talking about there. I realize that Apple is really pushing iPad as the use case for Apple users as they don't have a Mac with built in digitizers and using a separate tablet to draw with is not the best answer when using a laptop. But on the desktop most graphic artists that I know and experience, use Corel and are both Mac and Windows users.

As a tablet I prefer my Surface Pro, but I do like being about to hand around the Surface book tablet at meetings. I don't think that Windows is better for everyone, and maybe not you. But the reasons for using either system depend on the use case. My point was in answer to the poster that was trying to imply that MacOS was the best system.

I get what you were trying to imply.

My point was that your use case is niche, and probably suits Windows more due to the 2 in 1 hardware.
If you read what I said, I use the iPad Pro for sketching which suits me more than a 2 in 1 due to the speed, sketches in app etc.
Also you neglect to comprehend that i use both systems equally but use what works for me at a certain time [due to windows only apps mainly]. I like windows, but prefer macOS, but windows works fine for me when I need it to. However making an argument based on your specific uses to highlight some sort of superiority is not a good way to argue one thing may be better than others.

Here is something interesting though. I work in the architecture / interiors world and in all have seen about 3 surface books [in the same company] and not once have I seen anyone remove the screen / do any type of drawing. The same company has ipad pro’s though which the ‘creatives’ use. Never once have I worked with a graphic designer using Corel Draw [always adobe suite] and also never once seen a 2 in 1 [except the surfacebook2] in any office or studio. This is despite them being directly marketed towards architects and interior designers.

Others may have different expereinces, but this is mine.

In addition, only 1 office in my 20 year career so far used macs, and tbh it was a disaster area. It is a PC world.

 

[Mendota]

I get what you were trying to imply.

My point was that your use case is niche, and probably suits Windows more due to the 2 in 1 hardware.
If you read what I said, I use the iPad Pro for sketching which suits me more than a 2 in 1 due to the speed, sketches in app etc.
Also you neglect to comprehend that i use both systems equally but use what works for me at a certain time [due to windows only apps mainly]. I like windows, but prefer macOS, but windows works fine for me when I need it to. However making an argument based on your specific uses to highlight some sort of superiority is not a good way to argue one thing may be better than others.

Here is something interesting though. I work in the architecture / interiors world and in all have seen about 3 surface books [in the same company] and not once have I seen anyone remove the screen / do any type of drawing. The same company has ipad pro’s though which the ‘creatives’ use. Never once have I worked with a graphic designer using Corel Draw [always adobe suite] and also never once seen a 2 in 1 [except the surfacebook2] in any office or studio. This is despite them being directly marketed towards architects and interior designers.

Others may have different expereinces, but this is mine.

In addition, only 1 office in my 20 year career so far used macs, and tbh it was a disaster area. It is a PC world.

I understood that you used both. I didn't miss that. And you were referring to Corel Draw and I was talking about both Draw and Painter. Everyone does different art, I prefer painting to sketching so I prefer Painter and Draw. But I enjoy sketching on my iPad just as I enjoy sketching on pads in natural media. I know two architects that use Surface Book 2 mostly because it is a powerful gpu option without being a gaming p.c.

I like MacOS well enough and I won't be jumping ship as I ride both boats, and have no need to jump. I prefer Windows, but I have no trouble understanding those that don't. The issue with Apple now seems to be that they are trying "to jump ship" and some users feel the need to get off before the sinking. Who knows were they intend to go with the rumors of abandoning Intel?

 

[jinnyman]

For me, both hardware and software are tools to do the works. I really don't care about whatever "feature" both OS offers as long as it does what it needs to do. At least for me, both Mac OS and Windows10 is perfectly usable for whatever work I do. So the issue comes down to the hardware options available for each OS case, and currently, Mac hardware option is not persuasive. Mac nowadays are joke, and only for general users who don't use computers for living or else for those professional people whose look of whatever gear they are using can be utilized as marketing

 

[senttoschool]

I actually don't mind the butterfly keyboard. Weirdly I seem to type faster and make fewer typing errors on it. I've had no issues so far with my 2018 MBP (i9 32GB 560X) *knock on wood*

What really bothers me are the touch bar and trackpad. Usually when I'm typing my hands hover over the keyboard. My fingers just slightly touch the touchbar and either hit the esc key (especially when on a browser and my fingers are on cmd-W to close a browser window) or the siri button (when I sometimes overreach a bit hitting the delete button). It gets quite annoying at times. I really hope they go back to physical keys for the function keys. At times my thumbs hit the trackpad and move the cursor somewhere else and I have text in places it shouldn't' be. Honestly I do have an unorthodox way of typing, so it might be me, but I'm used to it and it never happened on my older 2013 MBP.

I hate just about everything on the new Macbook Pros but the most infuriating thing was what you just described: having my palm over the trackpad when typing was not only uncomfortable but it gave me anxiety due to imperfect palm detection.

 

[pshufd]

I've been watching a few more 2018 MBP videos and there are people that are happy with it. I don't know whether they're lucky or if they are the norm and there are some QA issues that people are very vocal about. I think that the issues with dongles are reasonable as are a few other things but the 2018 seems to be a lot better than 2016/2017. I'm sticking with the 2014/2015, though, until there's more info on 2018, and want to see how good the 2019 will be.

 

[senttoschool]

I've been watching a few more 2018 MBP videos and there are people that are happy with it. I don't know whether they're lucky or if they are the norm and there are some QA issues that people are very vocal about. I think that the issues with dongles are reasonable as are a few other things but the 2018 seems to be a lot better than 2016/2017. I'm sticking with the 2014/2015, though, until there's more info on 2018, and want to see how good the 2019 will be.

I'm willing to bet that people who's first Macbook Pro ever was the 2016+ will generally be happier with the purchase and have fewer complaints. The newer laptops are still generally better than what those users had before which were probably crappy Acer laptops.

For those who came from the 2012-2015 Macbook Pro Retinas, they generally dislike the newer laptops. The 2012-2015 laptops were less expensive, more ergonomic, more reliable, and had better battery life. I'm in this camp.

 

[dspdoc]

I don't care what others think or do or choose to use. I am just expressing my opinion. What is the problem?

You clearly care what other people think or you wouldn't be pushing your agenda so hard.

 

[skaertus]

I'm willing to bet that people who's first Macbook Pro ever was the 2016+ will generally be happier with the purchase and have fewer complaints. The newer laptops are still generally better than what those users had before which were probably crappy Acer laptops.

For those who came from the 2012-2015 Macbook Pro Retinas, they generally dislike the newer laptops. The 2012-2015 laptops were less expensive, more ergonomic, more reliable, and had better battery life. I'm in this camp.

I had a 2013 15-inch retina MacBook Pro and now I have a 2016 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar. Both are great. I actually prefer the new model.

When Apple released the Retina MacBook Pro, it was a killer, it was thinner and lighter, had an SSD instead of an HD, and had a much better screen. Still, there were lots of complaints of people who were not happy with it. The prices were higher, they lacked some legacy ports, they lacked an optical disk drive, they had a shorter key travel on the keyboard, they had a non-replaceable battery, and were not upgradeable after purchase. And they were more expensive. Some people even complained about the screen, claiming that the non-retina one was better for photo editing.

I thought the Retina MacBook Pro was worth the price, and that the retina screen and the thinner and lighter package, together with the SSD out of the box, were everything a laptop should have at the time.

When Apple released the new MacBook Pro with Touch Bar, it was also met with mixed feelings. It is thinner and lighter, it has a brighter screen, better audio, a larger trackpad, Touch ID, and it has the Touch Bar.

While there are some improvements, my feeling is that Apple crossed the line too soon and delivered an upgrade with not-so-obvious advantages. I have to say that I like the fact that it is thinner and lighter, it helps a lot carrying around. The brighter screen and better audio are also a plus. I could perfectly live without Touch ID, even though it is nice to have. The TouchBar is fine, but not really useful, I expected so much more out of it. The larger trackpad is good, but not really necessary. I like the keyboard better than the previous one actually (and also the clicks), but I suppose not everybody is a fan. The lack of other ports other than Thunderbolt is of course of a minus; the only USB-C device that I have is a dongle which allows me to connect the Mac to other devices. Still, it does not bother me a lot, as the Thunderbolt connection is fast enough to plug a USB hub to the USB-C connection and have several USB-A ports instead. The battery is smaller, and the battery life suffers a little bit (also because of the TouchBar), but I can live with that.

Overall, I think the new MacBook Pro is an upgrade over the previous model, but, for the most part, the changes were not really necessary. It was not half as great as the upgrade from the unibody MacBook Pro to the Retina MacBook Pro.

The thing that concerns me more is the price. Apple is charging really high prices for all these features nobody really asked for. I live in Brazil, which has very high taxes over products, and Apple manages to basically price the Mac out of the market here. The cheapest Apple laptop, among those of the new batch, here is the Retina MacBook Air, and the most basic one will cost USD 2,700. A maxed-out 15-inch MacBook Pro will cost some USD 15,500. In a country where the GDP per capita is lower than USD 10,000 a year, that is a lot of money. There are only very few people with a specimen of the new MacBook line, and all of them bought it during trips to the U.S. Still, being so expensive in a poor country, these are rare items are really desired, and a target for thieves. It is risky to go around on the streets with one of these. Apple is definitely on the verge of alienating a whole country here, not that it really cares... but I will definitely abandon ship if this policy of raising prices goes on.

 

[maflynn]

I've been watching a few more 2018 MBP videos and there are people that are happy with it. I don't know whether they're lucky or if they are the norm and there are some QA issues that people are very vocal about.

I would surmise that the majority of owners are quite happy and/or don't have any keyboard issues. I think we all can have the wrong impression when we spend all of our time here at MR. While there is a decently sized percentage of owners who have keyboard issues, the inverse of that is the majority do not.

 

[senttoschool]

I would surmise that the majority of owners are quite happy and/or don't have any keyboard issues. I think we all can have the wrong impression when we spend all of our time here at MR. While there is a decently sized percentage of owners who have keyboard issues, the inverse of that is the majority do not.

The 2018 Macbook Pro is still much better than most PC laptops so if you come from the PC world, you'd generally be happy with it is my guess.

Casual users are probably also pretty happy with it it seems.

From my experience, people who need to do work on the laptop dislike it - myself included. Most of my coworkers really dislike it. I work at a tech company and we only issue Macbook Pros to employees. Most of my peers don't like it but have to live with it. Some, like myself, dislike it so much that we'd rather use the 2015 version.