Anyone else abandoning ship?

[maflynn]

A possible flaw in your pudding is, issues with other manufacturers

No question but few other manufacturers market themselves as a premium product. Also few makers have had such a run with so many issues year in and year out. The problem as I see it is that MBP is so expensive we really shouldn't see these problems

 

[turbineseaplane]

We have systems from lenovo, dell, samsung, microsoft, and apple. All of them have issues.

Anybody else have keyboard reliability disasters of this scale for 3 years running?

I'm specifically mentioning KB's because that's what the original OP was talking about.

 

[dspdoc]

No question but few other manufacturers market themselves as a premium product. Also few makers have had such a run with so many issues year in and year out. The problem as I see it is that MBP is so expensive we really shouldn't see these problems

Exactly! Apple’s pricing should reflect a near perfect product line. Unfortunately their computers have been riddled with serious issues for years now.

 

[turbineseaplane]

No question but few other manufacturers market themselves as a premium product. Also few makers have had such a run with so many issues year in and year out. The problem as I see it is that MBP is so expensive we really shouldn't see these problems

Yep...
Let's also not forget that the OP started in about the keyboards originally.

Apple flat out CREATED this keyboard problem.
This didn't have to happen.

Nobody was complaining nor clamoring for some "all new thinnovation" in the keyboard space.
In fact, MacBook keyboards were always considered pretty good, comfortable, reliable...just unremarkable which is a good thing in this case.

 

[Painter2002]

Anybody else have keyboard disasters of this scale for 3 years running?

I'm specifically mentioning KB's because that's what the original OP was talking about.

I think this is a major point that is often missed. Most of the time when a product has an issue in one year it is fixed the next year. Why is it that we still have a repair program for the retina “staingate” even on 2017 models after the issue existed from the beginning of retina MacBooks (what 2010-11?).

I get there is a design process where Apple is likely working on products that aren’t coming out for another 2-4 years, but most manufacturers will delay or revise their designs as soon as a major defect is identified, but apparently that doesn’t apply to Apple.

 

[dspdoc]

I think this is a major point that is often missed. Most of the time when a product has an issue in one year it is fixed the next year. Why is it that we still have a repair program for the retina “staingate” even on 2017 models after the issue existed from the beginning of retina MacBooks (what 2010-11?).

I get there is a design process where Apple is likely working on products that aren’t coming out for another 2-4 years, but most manufacturers will delay or revise their designs as soon as a major defect is identified, but apparently that doesn’t apply to Apple.

That’s precisely the stubborn bullheaded BS that I can’t stand out of Apple. It feels like they are thumbing their nose at us when they act this way. I wonder why they behave like this towards the masses that throw ridiculous amounts of money at them? They remind me of a spoiled rotten entitled brat, for lack of a better analogy.

 

[jerryk]

Anybody else have keyboard reliability disasters of this scale for 3 years running?

I'm specifically mentioning KB's because that's what the original OP was talking about.

Dell has had some because of their heating issues with their i7 system. Literally melted the key stalk/plunger that went into the base of the switch. It was that way for a couple years. Only happened if you really pushed your system doing gaming or video production. And then the letters get polished off Lenovo keyboards and even today the lighting is only around the keys, not through the letters on some models.

So different issues, but still issues.

The good thing about the Dell issue is if you have premium service, they come to your home or office. So they came to our office when we have keyboards fail and repaired them in a few minutes since they are only held on by 6 or so screws. Not riveted on like Apple. Grrr...
[doublepost=1552784655][/doublepost]

No question but few other manufacturers market themselves as a premium product. Also few makers have had such a run with so many issues year in and year out. The problem as I see it is that MBP is so expensive we really shouldn't see these problems

I hear you, but price does not always ensure that. As the owner of a Tesla X there are a number of minor issues that should not be, and the interior is not as luxurious as cars costing half as much. Still I would not have another car. So smooth, so fast, so not a regular ICE vehicle.

 

[MBAir2010]

I did reverse my thinking on apple being “stubborn” towards problems, i used some open minded situations according to issues as a local company might have.

what if they have a 5 year deal with “karlsl keyboards” and are stuck with them,
Or if apple has better statistics on just say only 14% of the keyboards are defective
We really do not know exactly the severity of the problem in their eyes
Apple has to care about any problems because believe this or not no company wants to lose customers, espacially due to defective merchandise.

Just food for thought.......

 

[Painter2002]

I did reverse my thinking on apple being “stubborn” towards problems, i used some open minded situations according to issues as a local company might have.

what if they have a 5 year deal with “karlsl keyboards” and are stuck with them.

So while this is a valid point, Apple has the power as a big company to put pressure on their distributors to correct the issue. If a distributor is having issues providing a reliable product, a huge company like Apple has the power to threaten them with canceling that contract if they don’t fix the issue.

And that’s assuming the issue is with the distributor. But this is an issue in design that Apple has full ability to correct and work with the distributors to renegotiate the contract with a corrected design.

 

[SDColorado]

The good thing about the Dell issue is if you have premium service, they come to your home or office. So they came to our office when we have keyboards fail and repaired them in a few minutes since they are only held on by 6 or so screws. Not riveted on like Apple. Grrr...

That's the big one. With Dell or Lenovo a keyboard replacement is a relatively simple procedure and if you have even basic technical inclination, you can do it yourself. Lenovo sells the keyboards as FPU (Field Replaceable Units) that the customer can do themselves if they desire. OR if you have paid for onsight service through either one, a technician can come to your home and be in and out inside half an hour. No sending your laptop away for weeks to have the entire top case replaced due to a keyboard failure.
[doublepost=1552787638][/doublepost]

I think this is a major point that is often missed. Most of the time when a product has an issue in one year it is fixed the next year. Why is it that we still have a repair program for the retina “staingate” even on 2017 models after the issue existed from the beginning of retina MacBooks (what 2010-11?)

Still releasing new models of computers with the T2 chips too, even though they haven't fixed the issue that began with the debut of the iMac Pro in December 2017. Just had my crash again this AM just trying to print a ****ing pdf 🙁 . Sometimes it just makes a loud "sigh" noise and reboots, as though it is tired of its own s*** hahaha

 

[turbineseaplane]

Lenovo sells the keyboards as FPU (Field Replaceable Units) that the customer can do themselves if they desire.

I just spit out my drink even THINKING about Apple offering such an option.

lol

I don't really know why any of us were ever under the delusion that Apple is "green" or is interested in designing things in a way that's consumer friendly..
[doublepost=1552796208][/doublepost]It's amazing the BS garbage we suck up out of Apple's mouth about weight and thinness, etc..

Meanwhile there are Thinkpads that are the same size or thinner, weigh less, have a FULL range of ports *AND* a drastically better keyboard.

Stop telling me Apple makes first rate hardware.
They make first rate PR and spin is what they do right now..
[doublepost=1552797010][/doublepost]

As the owner of a Tesla X there are a number of minor issues that should not be, and the interior is not as luxurious as cars costing half as much. Still I would not have another car. So smooth, so fast, so not a regular ICE vehicle.

Tesla is at least doing something nobody is doing.

Apple is simply making overhyped, overpriced and over "thinned" hardware that does the exact same thing with the same components as everyone else.

 

[Queen6]

I just spit out my drink even THINKING about Apple offering such an option.

lol

I don't really know why anyone of us were ever under the delusion that Apple is "green" or is interested in designing things in a way that's consumer friendly..

Apple has become increasingly hostile toward the consumer, turning computers into disposable appliances. Apple's stance is same as it's privacy just another sales and marketing tactic. It's more to do with reducing manufacturing cost which is obvious to anyone who's dealt with design & manufacture of complex electronic assemblies.

It's a process of removing options, especially third party upgrades & repair to force the user to pay significant upcharge, it's a monopoly pure and simple anyone thinking different...

Q-6

 

[SDColorado]

I don't really know why any of us were ever under the delusion that Apple is "green" or is interested in designing things in a way that's consumer friendly..

It's a bit like the cable thing. They began making them PVC and BFR free, which is a great idea on the surface, but the cables don't seem to last. At least here in Colorado, my experience has been that they tend to dry and crack and require more frequent replacement. So where do they end up? Most likely in the trash and landfills.

Keyboard replacement required a top case replacement. The top case replacement requires battery replacement, even if the batteries aren't old. Sounds great for the consumer right? They get a brand new battery when all they needed was a keyboard replacement. But where do those batteries go?

 

[turbineseaplane]

anyone thinking different...

Oh don't worry my friend...
This forum is filled with people lapping up the BS out of Cupertino.

It's nauseating
[doublepost=1552797434][/doublepost]

Keyboard replacement required a top case replacement. The top case replacement requires battery replacement, even if the batteries aren't old. Sounds great for the consumer right? They get a brand new battery when all they needed was a keyboard replacement. But where do those batteries go?

Such a great point..
I've seen so many on the forum just focus on "hey! I got a whole new KB/battery/trackpad for free!!"

...umm - what happened to us lauding Apple for being so "eco" and "green"?

Also - that user won't be singing that tune on a model that's out of warranty and past any "extended coverage for keyboard defects"... Then it's a huge bill to fix something that isn't worth fixing..

Just buy a NEW Mac! Perfect!
Tim wins!
Margins!
ASPs!
Shareholder value!

Screw the customer!
Stock price up!
YAY!

 

[lewdvig]

I’m going to make the call when they switch to ARM. I’m pretty optimistic that most of what we hate about the current Mac lineup will get solved by virtue of the change. My guess is Apple’s Mac product managers are 100% focused on those next gen products.

IMO the pro will use ARM and the numbers will shock people (core counts, clock speeds and power consumption).

Prices should come down, no intel or amd chips after all, and performance should go up (ipc, thermal, batteries).

If I ditch macOS it will likely be to go all in on iOS.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I’m going to make the call when they switch to ARM. I’m pretty optimistic that most of what we hate about the current Mac lineup will get solved by virtue of the change. My guess is Apple’s Mac product managers are 100% focused on those next gen products.

IMO the pro will use ARM and the numbers will shock people (core counts, clock speeds and power consumption).

Prices should come down, no intel or amd chips after all, and performance should go up (ipc, thermal, batteries).

If I ditch macOS it will likely be to go all in on iOS.

I agree with most of your analysis there.
What concerns me is the hardware direction in general though.

That keyboard shouldn't have shipped and it shouldn't have been double and tripled down on.
It's not ergonomic, it's not reliable, it isn't even comfortable to use for long periods.

It was designed to fit a desire to be "thin" and then work backwards from there.

I shudder to think what this next gen ARM Mac line might look like with even further extensions of their current design thinking.

Oh...one disagreement..
"Prices should come down"
LOL

"costs" may go down, but prices will not.
Margins will go up - Revenue up - ASP steady
Stock price up.

Tim is a bean counter
His whole jig is the numbers, not the products.

The company somewhat died, or at least the soul of it, when the product man died and an "Ops" guy was chosen as the "next".

 

[LogicalApex]

Apple has become increasingly hostile toward the consumer, turning computers into disposable appliances. Apple's stance is same as it's privacy just another sales and marketing tactic. It's more to do with reducing manufacturing cost which is obvious to anyone who's dealt with design & manufacture of complex electronic assemblies.

It's a process of removing options, especially third party upgrades & repair to force the user to pay significant upcharge, it's a monopoly pure and simple anyone thinking different...

Q-6

It is Apple being Apple. They prefer to use Apple custom parts and ending the PC style upgrades is often cited as one of the best decisions Steve Jobs made when he returned to Apple. Ever since then Apple has made it harder to use standard industry components.

Even when they allowed user swappable RAM you had to buy special RAM that would meet Apple customizations... When Apple has swappable SSDs you still needed to use Apple special made SSDs and off the shelf ones wouldn't work. Even ones that used HDDs often required some sort of adapter to work with standard drives.

PCs have always had extremely flexible upgrade options as PC manufacturers tend to stick to industry standards. Apple has always charted its own way... It may be annoying, but this is classically Apple and nothing surprising.

 

[lewdvig]

I agree with most of your analysis there.
What concerns me is the hardware direction in general though.

That keyboard shouldn't have shipped and it shouldn't have been double and tripled down on.
It's not ergonomic, it's not reliable, it isn't even comfortable to use for long periods.

It was designed to fit a desire to be "thin" and then work backwards from there.

I shudder to think what this next gen ARM Mac line might look like with even further extensions of their current design thinking.

Can’t argue there. Keyboard is an abomination; after Macbook and 2017 MacBook Pro I’m used to it, but it still stinks.

Also the cynical form over function nonsense; ports, heat, Touch Bar and what’s with the 2005 era webcam?

 

[cubbie5150]

Can’t argue there. Keyboard is an abomination; after Macbook and 2017 MacBook Pro I’m used to it, but it still stinks.

Also the cynical form over function nonsense; ports, heat, Touch Bar and what’s with the 2005 era webcam?

"Premium" product tho, LMAO.

Again, I'm happy to pay premium prices for a premium product. Apple just isn't premium anymore, IMHO. YMMV, obviously. Apple does marketing so well. They have customers blaming themselves and others for product failures. Props to Tim & company for being so successful.

 

[Queen6]

Oh don't worry my friend...
This forum is filled with people lapping up the BS out of Cupertino.

It's nauseating
[doublepost=1552797434][/doublepost]

Such a great point..
I've seen so many on the forum just focus on "hey! I got a whole new KB/battery/trackpad for free!!"

...umm - what happened to us lauding Apple for being so "eco" and "green"?

Also - that user won't be singing that tune on a model that's out of warranty and past any "extended coverage for keyboard defects"... Then it's a huge bill to fix something that isn't worth fixing..

Just buy a NEW Mac! Perfect!
Tim wins!
Margins!
ASPs!
Shareholder value!

Screw the customer!
Stock price up!
YAY!

It's all a song and dance these days, finest thing Apple's sells today is Apple, you either buy into it or you don't simple as that...

For me the value the Mac once represented has slowly eroded. Apple currently does not offer a reasonable balanced portable solution as they are all overly compromised.

Most I know have or are in the process of dropping the Mac for professional use. It's simply become too narrowly focused, with poor usability decissions just to make it more visually appealing, inclusive of deminshed reliability...

No one is expecting miracles or 10lb portable workstations, just a little common sense. Ports that make sense right here, right now, internals that have adequate cooling, design that serves the customer and first and foremost reliability & stability.

Frankly Apple also makes such a song and dance over things which is completely annoying Mac Pro for one. I'm certain Apple will make great fanfare of the new Mac Pro as they did with the Trashcan and 50/50 it will be another flop, after 6 years of doing absolutely nothing.

The computing experience has never been more performant, and yet Apple is deliberately crippling what it proports to be professional systems 😵 It's all sales and marketing now little else...

 

[richinaus]

It's all a song and dance these days, finest thing Apple's sells today is Apple, you either buy into it or you don't simple as that...

For me the value the Mac once represented has slowly eroded. Apple currently does not offer a reasonable balanced portable solution as they are all overly compromised.

Most I know have or are in the process of dropping the Mac for professional use. It's simply become too narrowly focused, with poor usability decissions just to make it more visually appealing, inclusive of deminshed reliability...

No one is expecting miracles or 10lb portable workstations, just a little common sense. Ports that make sense right here, right now, internals that have adequate cooling, design that serves the customer and first and foremost reliability & stability.

Franly Apple also makes such a song and dance over things which is completely annoying Mac Pro for one. I'm certain Apple will make great fanfare of the new Mac Pro as they did with the Trashcan and 50/50 it will be another flop.

The computing experience has never been more performant, and yet Apple is deliberately crippling what it proports to be professional systems 😵 It's all sales and marketing now little else...

I truly do not understand why everyone is going so crazy over all this. If you don’t like it leave.

Did the TI PowerBook offer value? Mine had a CD drive in the shape of a banana and it cost a fortune.

Or did the MBP in 2010 -12 offer great value - mine was underpowered.

Did the 2014 MBP offer great value? Mine was turd and constantly overheated.

They were never workstations, and I realised this after my 2014 model and never again did I expect too much out of them. Since that epiphany I am more than happy with the current models. The current models are as good as any previous model in my eyes and this amazing Apple that you all so long for that has gone, truly disappeared when they removed ‘Computers’ from their name. A big hint right there.

In addition, in all reviews I read, the current MBP can stand up against workstations like the Zbook apparently [I still believe the fans would go crazy......]. What’s the big deal? You can’t upgrade the ram and ssd? You cant change a keyboard yourself? I have not wanted to or had the need to do any of these things in the last 10 years.

And as a last point I have seen the Dell on site technicians at work with a collegues computer. It took 2 visits and many arguments to get his laptop fixed [a time period of 6 weeks of no usable computer].

 

[Conutz]

Ive, the design team and marketing department all come to mind.

You mean much like any other innovation or design change? It was a change just like an other - for example, did everyone ask for Face ID, or Touch ID before its time? How about the original MacBook Air?

Seriously, if you guys don’t like the Apple hardware, that’s fine. Be happy with your choice to move on and enjoy your new hardware and ecosystem(s). But you do not speak for all of us, nor are your options the ultimate authority.

 

[maflynn]

I hear you, but price does not always ensure that. As the owner of a Tesla X there are a number of minor issues that should not be, and the interior is not as luxurious as cars costing half as much. Still I would not have another car. So smooth, so fast, so not a regular ICE vehicle.

To a degree, but price does create a mindset of luxury and quality.

 

[MBAir2010]

 is supposed to make better computers, that is whet we were lead to believe in the early 90s.
now in 2019, dell (i called hem dull) or HP. (HaP) are producing better laptops that perform faster graphic design measures for less money, then  has to step up their productivity. but keep it FUN!.

 makes fun things, their OSX is fun! these ipads and ipods are fun. the bondi blue imac was the apex of fun in computing. Humans would never sit behind a computer until the internet sprouted , and alot of users switched to  because the experience was fun compared to virus feed Microsoft and dull, HaP and gateway made bad computers even worse that e-machines , but  never produced a cheap computer, always top of the line and problem free. that saved their company , and the ipod inflated their profits to develop better laptops.

this is a shame and unbelievable that  has these problems today. maybe they need to realize computing is still very important and customers need to code, type fast and create graphics on their laptops MORE then ever.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

I truly do not understand why everyone is going so crazy over all this. If you don’t like it leave.

Isn't that exactly what this thread's title is about? People discussing if they are abandoning ship or not? Some are leaving or thinking about it and some don't.

What exactly is everyone going crazy over? Some people are expressing there disappointment with Apple and some are defending Apple. Nothing crazy about that. And yes.. people who don't like it already leave, so people are doing what you are suggesting. What is there to not understand?