Apollo Now Offers Option to Decline Refund Ahead of June 30 Shutdown

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

By that logic, literally anything that accepts donations is begging. Congrats, your point is terrible.

Donation for what in this case? Playing the sympathy card is low in my opinion.

 

[MacBH928]

Maybe it can shift towards other services like Mastodon, Nostr, and Lemmy

As the developer, I just want to say, I don't think you're a bad person or anything if you take the refund, but I do really appreciate the folks who are kind in declining it.

For reference, 30 days ago Reddit was still being very promising with their claims for the API pricing to be equitable and based in reality, and 4 months before that Reddit told me they had no plans to change the API this year, so this level of refund really hit me out of nowhere.

It's a gut punch, and I loved building Apollo, but the kindness and support people have shown over the last few weeks really means a lot in making this easier to swallow, so I genuinely really do appreciate those folks considering declining the refund.

Glad to meet you. You are app was one of the best UX I have seen especially for a convoluted site like reddit. You should be giving lectures to developers on how to build an app usable for the average user

That does not change the reality of business. He got his reward while the going was good, now it is time to find something else. This is life. Why would anyone give even a second of pity for this person? I do not care "how good his app was", that is irrelevant. He took on a business risk, the risk did not work in his favor, now he lives with consequences. End of story. Dont drag yourself down with him.

I stand by the developer because he was nice enough to make his app free, put a pay wall just for extra features that you do not really need (more of an excuse to pay), and living off donations of the community.

If he sold it at a price or a subscription (yikes!) I wouldn't support him, business is business.

 

[RickDEGH]

This is the Reddit app

And this is Apollo.

What’s the big deal here? Actually in the Reddit app I can keep watching the content and still read comments. Is it about the colour coding of replies?

 

[boss.king]

Donation for what in this case? Playing the sympathy card is low in my opinion.

So you’re not even going to pretend you read the article or any of the dozens of explanations? Why is it my responsibility to hold your hand and walk you through the concept of supporting people who make things you like?

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

So you’re not even going to pretend you read the article or any of the dozens of explanations? Why is it my responsibility to hold your hand and walk you through the concept of supporting people who make things you like?

Couldn't care less.

 

[msackey]

Call me unsympathetic but this pity party is pathetic. "The refund is out of pocket", is actually a massive lie. A refund is simply returning funds you collected, I do not care that you spent the money. Personally I call it a big scam taking advantage of the "hate on reddit policy" and "kindness of people". Do not fall for it folks, actively tell this developer to go F himself for even asking. Give your money to a real charity, you owe this stranger nothing. He entered into a business and knew the risks getting in! He also likely enjoyed some very nice reward while the going was good, pathetic is my polite word, don't reward stupid.

That’s a bit too harsh.

I don’t disagree that it’s dicey to say the refund is out of pocket since indeed the refund is a refund of money advanced by subscribers. But it’s also not unreasonable to have used that money that was advanced.

But that said, Reddit really did not give enough time for an independent developer to pivot. Only 30 days or so? That’s truly inadequate. It’s legitimate to charge for API access but realize that has not been the model for years, so a huge change like that requires transition time. A sudden pivot like that is very difficult for developers. And if Reddit were truly trying to bring as many developers into the fold, I’d think they’d take a wider perspective and see how they could enable the transition more smoothly.

 

[shieldcy]

Some people are so angry about this. Just don’t donate or ignore it completely. Jesus... take a chill pill and enjoy life

 

[msackey]

It's a bit surprising to see so many people piling on this developer. In the last month he found out his primary revenue stream was going to be cut off imminently, and then the CEO of Reddit posts libelous attacks on him (discredited by the recordings shared by Christian). Now, he's essentially saying to the app users "You can have your money back or not" and somehow he's a jerk?

I’m surprised too at the harshness. Seems like there’s a bunch here whose motto goes along the lines of “too bad, so sad”. One has to wonder how harsh they might be to themselves.

Some say “business is business”. What’s a statement like that supposed to mean? That reality is that business is risky, involves no compassion and understanding? It’s an oddly degenerative and limited view to only recognize harshness in reality and not see, say for example, the generative processes of kindness and understanding that also is a part of reality. 🤷🏽‍♂️

 

[pauloregan]

No different to being sherlocked by Apple.

 

[OmahaGTP]

I’m seeing some of what I could only describe as “business incels” in this thread, laughing about sheeple bending the knee to “beta business”. Maybe a loose interpretation. 🤣

 

[User 6502]

Yes he is a jerk, he is grifting. He has made lots of money and should have saved up to be prepared for this very real risk. He should have diversified his revenue streams (probably did but he isn't telling you about that part now is he?). He also isnt publishing how much money he made in the meantime enjoying the "rewards" of his business venture. He is literally playing on your reactionary emotions. Why not go in to your local food bank and ask if anyone there is a failed entrepreneur, guarantee you will learn a thing or two.

Any particular reason why you are so angry? Relax, nobody is taking YOUR revenue stream.

 

[diggy33]

This has been a great read this morning

 

[Evangelion]

Hahahahaha.

So this CEO along with outraged Redditors go crazy when they cannot leach for free of an other company and literally is making more profit than Reddit (who doesn't make a profit at all).

And now he wants to keep the money from it's users for free.

So, Reddit created a website for people to engage in discussions about various topics. They also provided an API that others can use to access their website. And when people go to their website to have their discussions, and when others use the APIs provided by Reddit, they are "leaching"[sic] the company? By doing exactly what the company wanted them to do?

 

[laptech]

What makes me laugh is those saying 'business is business' and calling the dev a grifter or a cheat or a thief (in other threads on the subject) because of using something that was given out for free. Doesn't that also come under the guise of 'business'? or does the word 'business' have a different meaning to those who want to portray a different narrative?

Reddit made a business decision to give out their API for free. The dev made a sound business decision to use that API. Business is business right? So why is it all of a sudden the dev is wrong and reddit is right? business is business right?

Reddit allowed their API to be used for free for years. Reddit had every opportunity to capitalize on the API and charge a fee for it's use, they chose not to. Many will see that as a bad business decision. Only very recently has reddit decided to capitalize on the API and charge for it's use, business is business, right? yes BUT their is good way to do business and there is bad way to do business and reddit chose the the bad way in many peoples opinions. Good business would be reddit talking to the dev in either acquiring the app to incorporate it into their own app or to work out a fair pricing deal for using the API. Bad business would be telling the dev nothing will change then with short notice telling the dev that no, actually things will be changing and that the price for using the API is now going to be approx. $12,000 and you have 30 days to make changes to the app. Reddit chose the latter and in this instance no, business is not business.

 

[jmho]

What’s the big deal here? Actually in the Reddit app I can keep watching the content and still read comments. Is it about the colour coding of replies?

It's mostly about standards. Apollo uses the standard iOS elements and sticks to the iOS design guidelines, and as such it gets a ton of platform features for free that Apple have worked hard to provide - like being usable by disabled users who need screen readers and voice-over etc.

The official reddit app looks fine, but because it's using completely non-standard elements it throws all iOS's hard-won accessibility features under the bus and tells blind users to uh, go away?

The reddit app looks like reddit, while Apollo looks like an iOS app.

It's mostly a personal preference thing, but a lot of people like it when the app speaks the "design language" of the platform rather than pushing their own custom look.

 

[Mago]

As the developer, I just want to say, I don't think you're a bad person or anything if you take the refund, but I do really appreciate the folks who are kind in declining it.

For reference, 30 days ago Reddit was still being very promising with their claims for the API pricing to be equitable and based in reality, and 4 months before that Reddit told me they had no plans to change the API this year, so this level of refund really hit me out of nowhere.

It's a gut punch, and I loved building Apollo, but the kindness and support people have shown over the last few weeks really means a lot in making this easier to swallow, so I genuinely really do appreciate those folks considering declining the refund.

Never needed your app, no charity refund here.

Thanks to shown and expose Reddit biggest cancer: (no, not it's API business case) it's moderators maffia who where acting tyranny and censor brigades for-hire, thanks your Reddit fight, reddit likely will be an better healthier community, meanwhile you can build an version of your app fir Lemmy where 0,1% of the redditors seemly opened an account.

Thank you very much.

 

[Coluch]

As the developer, …

It's a gut punch, and I loved building Apollo,

May I ask why you don’t simply relaunch with an asking price that matches the new API cost? Surely many avid users will come back. Even if it shrinks, you have a built-in, loyal customer base.

 

[ItsASpider]

"free labour" MY LORD. The users voluntarily posting their content, and the moderators volunteering their time moderating is not free labour. Nobody was forced to do anything. You are clearly stretching the truth to protect your whiny narrative. Business is business, the consumer votes, Reddit did nothing wrong.

"This is not free labour, this is: *proceeds to describe exactly what free labour is*"

First of all who cares what my emotions are. I think you only care because its the only method you have to reduce the credibility of my genuine point. Second everyone keeps purposely forgetting that he is LEANING on his "sad story about big mean Reddit", to generate free money. When you realize that my viewpoint is that he is taking advantage of your good intentions, then you will see what I am saying. But you will continue to ignore that because it would cause too much cognitive dissonance, and I am personally fine with that.

Or just playing devils advocate. Anyone consider maybe I could be paid by the developer to drive up hysteria and to bring more sympathy for him? I'm not but what if I was? I am also personally okay with the possibility that is how you people reacted. It is actually kind of amusing.

Anyways I have work to do tomorrow. I look forward to hearing about how terrible I am later.

You're kicking and screaming here about how this isn't a viable business, but I have to ask; do you actually have any experience running a business. You do understand that as much as Apollo was built on a freely available API (for which the developer is willing to pay), Reddit itself more than likely also uses freely available tools, right? Welcome to the world of software development, where you seemingly know nothing about.

The developer didn't have to give a refund. The fact that's that even on offer already is solely out of the goodness of his heart.

Relying on a business partner who to that point has worked with you as Reddit did, and trusting on their word, isn't bad business practice. What the hell are you smoking? If you think that developing an app like that and supporting it is something that they should do for free, then you're just out of your mind (and just proof that you don't actually know how businesses work). "Free money" my a--. You're viewpoint is that "he is taking advantage of your good intentions", and that's great. My viewpoint is that 2 + 2 equals 5. Doesn't mean that it is true and that I'm not being an absolute idiot for stating it.

 

[jmho]

May I ask why you don’t simply relaunch with an asking price that matches the new API cost? Surely many avid users will come back. Even if it shrinks, you have a built-in, loyal customer base.

The API cost is per-use so he’d have to charge per-use, and you’d have to top up “api credits” based on how much you use the app which would be an awful experience.

 

[Krizoitz]

He entered into a business and knew the risks getting in!

Uh, no, there was absolutely no reason to expect Reddit wouldn’t implement such an exorbitant pricing scheme that has literally no precedent.

pathetic is my polite word, don't reward stupid.

Oh the irony of this statement.

 

[Krizoitz]

Just FYI: if Apollo's bill is high, look at the bill Reddit is putting up to run the API.

I am an iOS developer

LOL.

First: they have to run the API whether 3rd party apps use it or not, it’s how Reddit works.

Second: the cost to run an API is nowhere near what you think it is. Source: I work for a major IT company and am a developer involved in our API.

Third: Plenty of other companies charge for public APIs at nowhere near the rate Reddit is charging.

Fourth: The CEO has admitted this isn’t about covering costs but about blocking 3rd party apps. They were just to chicken **** to say so upfront and only admitted it when no one bought their smoke screen.

 

[laptech]

LOL.

First: they have to run the API whether 3rd party apps use it or not, it’s how Reddit works.

Second: the cost to run an API is nowhere near what you think it is. Source: I work for a major IT company and am a developer involved in our API.

Third: Plenty of other companies charge for public APIs at nowhere near the rate Reddit is charging.

Fourth: The CEO has admitted this isn’t about covering costs but about blocking 3rd party apps. They were just to chicken **** to say so upfront and only admitted it when no one bought their smoke screen.

The CEO tried to say that the pricing of the API is inline with industry standard but then the dev reported that imgur only charge $169 for the same amount of API calls.

 

[krspkbl]

I'm going to miss Apollo. I haven't visited Reddit on my iPhone since uninstalling Apollo.

RIP and **** u/spez

 

[5580463]

Apparently Narwhal will stay alive with a subscription of $4-7 per month.

 

[bgillander]

That’s a bit too harsh.

I don’t disagree that it’s dicey to say the refund is out of pocket since indeed the refund is a refund of money advanced by subscribers. But it’s also not unreasonable to have used that money that was advanced.

But that said, Reddit really did not give enough time for an independent developer to pivot. Only 30 days or so? That’s truly inadequate. It’s legitimate to charge for API access but realize that has not been the model for years, so a huge change like that requires transition time. A sudden pivot like that is very difficult for developers. And if Reddit were truly trying to bring as many developers into the fold, I’d think they’d take a wider perspective and see how they could enable the transition more smoothly.

Is it really that dicey for him to say the refund is out of pocket? He isn’t saying that it isn’t a refund, he is saying that it isn’t out of Apple’s pocket, it is out of his, which seems accurate since I wouldn’t expect Apple to withhold payment until the end of a subscription period. So he isn’t just losing his revenue stream, he is expected to pay back Apple for the refunds they provide (hopefully they at least provide their 15 or 30% portion.)

From the dollar amount quoted in the comments, he obviously had a good revenue stream, but depending on when those sales were, we don’t know if the subscribe rate massively picked up with the Reddit controversy, which would be the opposite of normal since usually people would avoid that risk once they were aware, but there are obviously a lot of people passionate about this. I think normal statistics would expect that the subscribe rate would average across the months, so he would be on the hook for refunding about half his annual income (or probably 5/12, since there is likely a month slack in the pro-rating. If sales dropped off sharply after the uncertainty arose, that could drop another 1/12 for the last month, I guess? If lots of people suddenly subscribed to try to support him, though, that could skew it greatly to having to refund 11/12 of those subscriptions. I guess in those cases, the money would probably still be with Apple, so that would reduce the out of pocket part, but his total income wouldn’t be as large as you would expect based on the refund amount. I’m quite probably wrong on most of this and maybe he already provided such info, but it is the middle of the night and I became a bit fixated on the numbers when I should have gone to sleep.

I feel for the developer and don’t see anything wrong with him pointing out that the refund comes from him, since he doesn’t seem to be pushing it, just pointing it out. It makes me think of getting terminated and instead of getting severance, being asked to pay back your last month’s salary.