Apple adopts Blu-ray Technology

[JesterJJZ]

"Everything else is tenuous?" My two cents:

Neither of these will catch on in the movie market, simply because regular DVD quality is more than good enough for a standard television.

Well these formats aren't really designed for standard televisions anyway. "Regular" TV's would hardly see any differnence in quality when watching a HD title thats been downconverted to SD. These formats are to push HD. HD is at a crawl untill we have a use for it. For HD to catch on we need HD recording and viewing capability. For many people, the only thing you can see in HD right now is Jay Leno.

 

[nuckinfutz]

people here need to read up on HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray. There are a lot of misconceptions about them.

CDFreaks just did an article a few days ago about this. It is more updated than a lot of your old information.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186

Allow me to correct this author.

You can record about 13 hours of standard TV but only a bit more than 2 hours of uncompressed high definition TV on a 25GB disc.

HDTV and to be more specific the ATSC format that is HDTV has "never" been uncompressed. 1920x1080i/p uncompressed video would be over 300 megabytes a second.

Herbert wrote a very good article. Balanced and unbiased I agree whole heartedly with his conclusion. Will price win out over technological superiority? That's what we're going to find out.

 

[daveL]

Will price win out over technological superiority? That's what we're going to find out.

This is a question? The answer has been written over and over. We are talking about Joe Consumer, not avid early adopters of technology with a bunch of discretionary income. The *is* vhs vs beta max, regardless of the opinion in this forum. If Blu-Ray can't get their price down to compete head-to-head with HD-DVD, then they will loose. BTW, I am a Blu-Ray advocate and a Beta Max owner, until you couldn't get movies or buy media. Get real. When you are talking about the average buyer, you're talking about money; they simply don't know enough to make a decision based on anything other than their budget.

 

[1984]

No the technology is too different. Because the file structure is the same on HD-DVD they've been able to add DVD support from day 1 into the spec. Blue-Ray has to tack on the red laser.

Both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray use blue lasers and both will require additional red lasers to be backwards compatible with DVD and CD.

 

[R3z]

Hm. Looks like I'm a bit late to the party, but I might as well throw in my $.02:

1. No matter which format wins, it's going to be more expensive out the door. This is a GIVEN.

2. The lower cost of HD-DVD will not impact how much we pay for movies. DVD's cost less than a penny to mass produce, and far less than VHS to distribute, and are only now approaching the prices that VHS used to sell for.

3. Cost always goes down over time. Initial cost of investment means very little over the long run - it's going to be a good few years before either format becomes widespread, but what's going to really determine the return on investment is going to be how long the format can be in play - ie., the expandability. Blu-Ray may cost more to introduce, but if it's ceiling is 3-6x that of HD-DVD, it's going to make much more sense over the long run, both financially and technically.

4. To say "30gb is enough!" is absolutely foolish. Enough for what, HD resolution? What happens when resolution gets higher than HD (And it WILL...)? The history of storage is a history of using more we ever thought we could need - remember when a 300mb drive was Enormous? To hobble ourselves out the gate is not only incredibly shortsighted, it's also ignoring more than 50 years of computing evidence.

5. Apple and Sony eventually had to fold to the pressure and offer DVD+R drives. Why? HP and Dell, who collectively claim more than 1/3 of the worldwide market (and more of the US market), went with dvd+r. Now you've got HP, Dell, Sony, Pioneer, Philips, and Samsung supporting the same format - that's a HUGE chunk of market.

To judge a format based on current price is foolish. Price always starts high and drops fast, and this will be no difference. If the format is expandable enough and lasts a while, the equipment will be well in the range of affordable in short order. Further, to say "30gb is more than enough" is ignoring both the past and the future. This may be enough as far as HD is concerned, yes, but by no measure will a limited format serve for the future. This is a predicament that's seen so often in computing that it's absurd to think the debate still exists between cost and future expandability - short term price benefits rarely translate into true long term savings. I'm not saying HD-DVD is crap, but Blu-Ray starts higher and promises more, so I simply don't see the benefit of hamstringing the industry with an inferior format to save a few dollars in the short run.

 

[1984]

This article echos the quality issue I've seen:

http://www.dvdreview.com/html/new_format_war.html

 

[nuckinfutz]

Both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray use blue lasers and both will require additional red lasers to be backwards compatible with DVD and CD.

My post never disputed that fact. The important part is that the red laser support for HD-DVD has been there from the beginning and is part of the design.

HD-DVD Promotion Group

the simple structure of a single-lens optical head that can accommodate both red and blue laser diodes will realize compact systems.

2. The lower cost of HD-DVD will not impact how much we pay for movies. DVD's cost less than a penny to mass produce, and far less than VHS to distribute, and are only now approaching the prices that VHS used to sell for.

Of course it does. Toshiba HD-DVD execs are already hinting at players for $1000 or less and they've announced 89 titles. Blu-Ray has been silent. It's well known that HD-DVD is cheaper to manufacture thus initial prices may be high to consumers but HD-DVD should be more profitable to studios than Blu-Ray.

Blu-Ray may cost more to introduce, but if it's ceiling is 3-6x that of HD-DVD, it's going to make much more sense over the long run, both financially and technically.

What are feature films suddenly going to move to 4 hr play times? Within the context of movie distribution HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have enough room to grow. Computers is another story. Blu-Ray has a huge advantage here.

short term price benefits rarely translate into true long term savings. I'm not saying HD-DVD is crap, but Blu-Ray starts higher and promises more, so I simply don't see the benefit of hamstringing the industry with an inferior format to save a few dollars in the short run.

You're failing to see history has almost always sided with the cheaper product.

VHS-Beta- Cheaper VHS wins
Macintosh- PC- Cheaper PC wins

HD-DVD "is" cheaper folks. And despite our desires to justify those extra 20GB of data when we see the HD-DVD player in Best Buy next to the Blu-Ray player and it's $200 cheaper we know where most people are going.

 

[nuckinfutz]

This article echos the quality issue I've seen:

http://www.dvdreview.com/html/new_format_war.html

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray support the same codecs. Any qualitative difference you see is due to the talent of the compression hardware/software or engineer.

Guido Henkel produces games with blocky graphics. He's hardly the source I want to read reviews from. When Ben Waggonner reports I'll tune in.

 

[R3z]

Again, I'll point out you're looking at today's formats and media while judging tomorrow's data needs. You may be right that a 2 hr movie will fit comfortably on a 30gb disk at HD resolution, but then again we're having this debate because a 2 hr movie at HD resolution won't fit on an 8gb disk, so to apply "just enough" philosophies to future formats is being a touch shortsighted.

Again, Toshiba can offer what they like, but they were one of the earlier proponants of DVD-RAM as well. They're hardly a market determinant.

What I will agree with you on, and it depresses me to the core, is that the cost is likely to be the determinant here. I work at Best Buy, and you're absolutely right, consumers will go for whatever's cheapest. At the end of the day, the argument over technical superiority is moot when compared to the market.

 

[stephenli]

could we also suppose Apple would have some BD as early as WWDC?
well....
comeon steve, what we need is Dual Layer DVD R!! give us native support and internal drive!!!

btw, before we could edit HD video "easily" at "entry level" iMovie, we need a HD VIDEO CAM!!! or else it would be no use...
hay, comeon SONY, make us some "entry level" HD DV, and of course, with entry level SIZE and PRICE, please!!!!

 

[nuckinfutz]

R3z.

I do admit I like the 50GB of space that Blu-Ray offers. I can't wait to get a Blu-Ray optical drive for a future computer system. Thank God for HDMI connections because with any more format wars there will be no room in the A/V rack

 

[Bob Dobbs]

could we also suppose Apple would have some BD as early as WWDC?
well....
comeon steve, what we need is Dual Layer DVD R!! give us native support and internal drive!!!

btw, before we could edit HD video "easily" at "entry level" iMovie, we need a HD VIDEO CAM!!! or else it would be no use...
hay, comeon SONY, make us some "entry level" HD DV, and of course, with entry level SIZE and PRICE, please!!!!

Its called the HVR-Z1. Its a HDV camera about $5000 for the 'prosumer' and $3700 for the non XLR audio version.

go here for lots more
http://www.creativecow.net/forum/view_posts.php?forumid=162

the price will go down - JVC also has a cheaper 1 chip HDV camera - not sure how much$$$

 

[pizzach]

C'mon guys. Let's look at this from the videogame Perspective. Sony is going with Blu-ray. Nintendo is probably going with HD-DVD. Nintendo wouldn't go for HD-DVD unless it is sure to fail because they like their proprietary...er...I mean they don't like copies of games easily made.

 

[aafuss1]

I don't think anyone has it yet, As far as I know its still in development.

Good to hear the Blu-ray has been adopted by Apple-first maube we'll see dual layer drives in macs, then later blu-ray.

 

[stephenli]

C'mon guys. Let's look at this from the videogame Perspective. Sony is going with Blu-ray. Nintendo is probably going with HD-DVD. Nintendo wouldn't go for HD-DVD unless it is sure to fail because they like their proprietary...er...I mean they don't like copies of games easily made.

e....Nintendo used to partner with Panasonic. A variation of Game cube call "Q", was released by panasonic, and GBA is using SD card on its official video / mp3 player...
So, if Panasonic goes with BD, then Nintendo probabaly. Though it may be produced as a smaller size, or with a strange case to cover it (just like UMD....i suppose)

 

[obeygiant]

dude srsly,

blu-ray comes in an ugly cartridge.

sure it holds 20 gb more, but who flippin cares.

VHS is way crappier than betamax, but VHS was cheaper to make.

BANG!

VHS wins.

Over the million and millions of discs made those clunky cartidges
are going to cost crapload of money...

go with the regular disc.. it even fits in the same packaging.


hd-dvd all the way...MARK MY WORDS!

 

[Dr. Dastardly]

Just a thought but is it completely out of the realm of possibility that we could just end up seeing both formats and have machines that can read both?

And when Blu-Ray comes out I doubt it will even be in those little catridges. If they do it will be for a very short time.

 

[obeygiant]

And when Blu-Ray comes out I doubt it will even be in those little catridges. If they do it will be for a very short time.

i hope you're right you crazy man.

without the cartridges, i dont give a crap.

 

[AllieNeko]

Okay, seriously folks, there's no way Blu-Ray WON'T be the winner, look who they've got:

Apple - traditional innovator
Disney - MAJOR movie studio
Sony - first HD camcorder, huge movie library, PlayStation3
LG - inventor of the US HDTV format (Zenith is an LG subsidiary) - to this day the market leader in HD decoder products.
Dell - largest Windows PC vendor
Samsung - major player in the TV and DVD player market
Philips - same
Matsushita - owners of JVC, the inventor of VHS (and Sony made Betamax - so Blu-ray has the inventors of both VHS and Betamax behind it!)
HP - Apple partner, huge in the Windows industry
Hitachi, Sharp - major TV makers
Pioneer - yes, the big LaserDisc player (a THIRD historical format whose main backer is behind Blu-ray)
TDK - media company, so there will be discs
Thomson - RCA. Okay, so it doesn't mean much but it's more on the list

Now tell me - with those industry heavyweights (that is, all the industry heavyweights essentially) backing Blu-ray, how could it NOT be the winner?

 

[nuckinfutz]

Okay, seriously folks, there's no way Blu-Ray WON'T be the winner, look who they've got:?

Apple - traditional innovator-- So what? What did Apple do for DVD-RAM that would lead you to believe they are a factor?

Disney - MAJOR movie studio--Warner Brothers MAJOR movie studio HD-DVD

Sony - first HD camcorder-- Wrong JVC created the HDV format and the GR-HD1 was first the consumer HD.

huge movie library, PlayStation3-- HD-DVD is supported by Universal,Paramount, New Line and WB. They likely have the larger movie library. PS3 isn't due until well into 2006

LG - inventor of the US HDTV format (Zenith is an LG subsidiary) - to this day the market leader in HD decoder products.-- Do they own pressing plants? Decoding HDTV is the easy part. Making the discs cheaply is the hard part.

Dell - largest Windows PC vendor- So what?

Samsung - major player in the TV and DVD player market- So is Toshiba
Philips - same- NEC same

Matsushita - owners of JVC, the inventor of VHS (and Sony made Betamax - so Blu-ray has the inventors of both VHS and Betamax behind it!)- So?

HP - Apple partner, huge in the Windows industry- Not likely

Hitachi, Sharp - major TV makers- What's that have to do with getting movies out in HDTV?

Pioneer - yes, the big LaserDisc player (a THIRD historical format whose main backer is behind Blu-ray)- So what studio does Pioneer own? 0

TDK - media company, so there will be discs- But how much?

Thomson - RCA. Okay, so it doesn't mean much but it's more on the list-Thomson is initially going to support both formats. They had a press release on it I believe.

Now tell me - with those industry heavyweights (that is, all the industry heavyweights essentially) backing Blu-ray, how could it NOT be the winner

Because you are making a huge blunder in thinking that the key to platform victory is hardware resellers. Nay, the key to victory is having the most content. When Joe Public walks into Best Buy he doesn't give a **** what Dell or HP or Apple likes or puts in their computer. He wants to know if he can get his favorite movies in HD. Thus it is the content that drives a product followed closely by price. As of TODAY HD-DVD has more content announced than Blu-Ray and looks to be the price leader. You've given me a bunch of fluff.

 

[GFLPraxis]

And while there are 100 supporting blu-ray, IIRC there was 230 supporting HDDVD.

 

[eXan]

The Blu-ray Disc Association announced today that Apple has become a member of the consortium's Board of Directors.



Blu-ray is a next-generation optical disc format being developed for High Definition video and high-capacity software applications. A Blu-ray disc will be able to hold up to 50GB of data (double layer).

During the MacWorld Expo SF Keynote speech Steve Jobs described 2005 as "the year of High Definition Video" and introduced HD video support into iMovie and Final Cut Express. Sony also demonstrated a HD Video camera at the keynote speech. The missing link has been the consumer's ability to export HD video off their Mac. It appears Blu-ray will be the technology and we can expect iDVD and burning support in the future.

Good news

 

[TrenchcoatJedi]

Why doesn't the government just step in and tell us which format we should use?

Seriously though. This infighting is getting no where. Sony and Toshiba need to sit down and come up with a format that suits all needs. I don't remember this nonsense happening when the CD was first created.

 

[Lacero]

I don't remember this nonsense happening when the CD was first created.

Yeah. I don't remember it happening to vinyl or 8-track, but I guess those are disruptive technologies, so no one knew what to make of them.

 

[JFreak]

Sony - first HD camcorder-- Wrong JVC created the HDV format and the GR-HD1 was first the consumer HD.

you put that "consumer" there all by yourself. it was originally stated that sony created the first hd camcorder, which is true. that was a sony hdw700, a 60i camcorder recording onto hdcam format - and this was followed by hdw700a which conform to 1920x1080 standard and was used by george lucas in 1997.