Apple Again Changes EU App Store Rules and Fees to Comply With DMA

[turbineseaplane]

I honestly don’t know how you can say this. It is an absolute fact security and privacy is more at risk with multiple app stores and sideloading than a single store.

You can absolutely argue the risk is worth it, or it’s a negligible risk. But denying the risk exists at all is just not grounded in reality.

Sorry, not feelin it ..
Not going around in circles on this again today though.

Have a good one 🫡

 

[ProbablyDylan]

I’m not really sure most tech nerds fundamentally “get” Apple, its philosophy, and its user base overall. 🙂

Sure we do! We just strongly disagree with their philosophy.

As we should when their philosophy includes arbitrarily restricting the functionality of the devices we paid for or when their philosophy supposedly grants them the divine right to enforce an exploitative business model.

 

[AppliedMicro]

I’m not really sure most tech nerds fundamentally “get” Apple, its philosophy, and its user base overall

I “got it” way before they turned so closed and evil.
Looking at the history of Apple, they didn’t use to be that way forever.

They made life hard for third-party developers at times.
But they didn’t go out of their way to rip them off and make their lives harder - and compromise user experience in doing so.

It is an absolute fact security and privacy is more at risk with multiple app stores and sideloading than a single store.

Since

• the Apple App Store is bundled with iOS
• and so many people use it
• and Apple wants to offer apps through their own store to retain them
• and Spotify wants users to download and install their app easily
• and, last but not least, Apple wants to avoid even more antitrust scutiny or legislation

I’m sure it’s in both Apple’s and Spotify’s interest to continue offering the Spotify app on said store.

And that’s where we are today. There is your closed ecosystem. You can even get Microsoft Office from the PlayStore, if you desire so - although they (Microsoft) could distribute it to Android users in other ways.

 

[surferfb]

Sure we do! We just strongly disagree with their philosophy.

As we should when their philosophy includes arbitrarily restricting the functionality of the devices we paid for or when their philosophy supposedly grants them the divine right to enforce an exploitative business model.

And if that bothers you BUY FROM THE COMPETITION.

Don’t selfishly take millions upon millions of users’ preferences away because you think you know better than the platform owner and the majority of its customers.

 

[turbineseaplane]

BUY FROM THE COMPETITION.

Just wanted to add that I'm actually starting to consider this!

If I have to have a phablet in the future, I figure I might as well shop the entire landscape of options out there.

A Fairphone or a Pixel 9 w/ GrapheneOS are high on my list.

That SD card slot on the Fairphone has me drooling.
Adding my own cheap storage!?

WAY too consumer friendly for Bean Counter Con Man Cook.

 

[Ctrlos]

I honestly don’t know how you can say this. It is an absolute fact security and privacy is more at risk with multiple app stores and sideloading than a single store.

You can absolutely argue the risk is worth it, or it’s a negligible risk. But denying the risk exists at all is just not grounded in reality.

I do not recall a massive hack of Google Drive or Dropbox that exposed the intimate photos of hundreds of celebrities to the world. Malware apps make it through the app store filter all the time. Thankfully most of them are purged before they have time to cause any damage. But the monolithic fortress isn't as formidable as people make it out.

Im sure I'm wrong but I can't think of a major security breach on Windows or Android that was the result of a bad actor app. Most of them tend to be unplugged holes in widely used protocols like Heartbleed.

 

[surferfb]

Just wanted to add that I'm actually starting to consider this!

If I have to have a phablet in the future, I figure I might as well shop the entire landscape of options out there.

A Fairphone or a Pixel 9 w/ GrapheneOS are high on my list.

That SD card slot on the Fairphone has me drooling.
Adding my own cheap storage!?

WAY too consumer friendly for Bean Counter Con Man Cook.

Thank you! And I mean it.

This is how it’s supposed to work. If Apple goes too far, the market pushes back, and they either have to adjust or accept a smaller customer base.

Continuing to buy Apple’s products while you strongly disagree with their computing philosophy isn’t telling them anything other than “this is what our customers want.”

 

[turbineseaplane]

Thank you! And I mean it.

This is how it’s supposed to work. If Apple goes too far, the market pushes back, and they either have to adjust or accept a smaller customer base.

Continuing to buy Apple’s products while you strongly disagree with their computing philosophy isn’t telling them anything other than “this is what our customers want.”

The other angle on it is that other Bolt EV drivers have told me they find Android Auto better than CarPlay -- maybe specifically in our situation/car?

I have no opinion on that, but it peaks my curiosity as I have never used AA.

Apple should really offer something Mini sized again IMO.
By not having hardware in the size I prefer any longer, they are putting at risk having me as a customer at all, across the board, including my usage of Apple services.

I guess they've done the calc and I'm not worth catering to for Timothy.

I've maintained for a couple years now that whoever offers me a Mini or smaller sized device is likely getting my purchase straight away. I want as small and light of a phone as possible. I do anything beyond the basics on tablets and full size computers.

 

[SpotOnT]

What a joke. More work for the consumer. Less security for the consumer.

All so other tech giants (other than Apple) can make more money….

 

[surferfb]

I do not recall a massive hack of Google Drive or Dropbox that exposed the intimate photos of hundreds of celebrities to the world. Malware apps make it through the app store filter all the time. Thankfully most of them are purged before they have time to cause any damage. But the monolithic fortress isn't as formidable as people make it out.

Im sure I'm wrong but I can't think of a major security breach on Windows or Android that was the result of a bad actor app. Most of them tend to be unplugged holes in widely used protocols like Heartbleed.

Some quotes from this article:

The advice is simple. No to third-party stores, and a bigger no to mods for popular apps from unofficial sources.

The good news for Android users sticking rigidly to Play Store, though, is that unsurprisingly the risks are exponentially increased when sideloading. Little surprise then that Google, Samsung and others are finally clamping down on third-party app store access and direct installs

“Our research,” Zimperium says, “indicates that globally, users who engage in sideloading are 200% more likely to have malware running on their devices than those who do not. In fact, sideloading is a great contributor to malware risk; in 8.3% of cases where malware was detected, the source can be traced back to a sideloaded application

I’m not arguing the single App Store is infallible or that malicious actors never get through. But I don’t think you can legitimately argue there isn’t more risk with third party stores and sideloading. You think the risk is worth it? Sure, argue away. But it’s “just as safe”? The data doesn’t bear that out.

 

[SpotOnT]

following that logic, google would deserve a finder fee for many things 😂

They get it. Every single time you click on a google link…

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Apple is charging for teh value you get from using its App Store. I agree if you don't use Apple' store, services or development tools you should not have to pay Apple, but if you do it is reasonable for Apple ot charge for them.

Agree, but the crux is how that is established and in relation to the value. It has to be quantified.

such as the developer agreement you pay a year.

Howvere, as I pointed out, they were more xpensive for many developers and even Cydia admitted it was tough to make a go of it at 30%.

Well for some, but you could still as your own sources who didn’t pay cydia anything.

It ultimately comes down to how much control should a company have over its products. Frankly, I think e EU should expand the gatekeepers to include Spotify given it is the dominant streaming service in the EU.

Sure can’t see what would implement on Spotify considering the absence of gatekeeper elements. Even with existing competition law.

From what I understand, Steam is more about making it easy to sell a ported game rather than develop one for the Mac.

It’s more everything else they provide with the store. It’s massive difference.

It would be great if Apple did that, although I suspect it would cause an outcry over Apple limiting access to user data.

Unlikely considering it’s fully supported by GDPR 🤷‍♂️ Apple could go full ham and blame EU privacy laws

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The security risk is bad actor spoofs a website “sp0tify [dot] com”, makes it look exactly like Spotify and get people to install a malicious app.

You know stuff like that will happen. It happens on desktop all the time.

Well then allow apps to offer in app purchases next to apples IAP solution and we will be safer.

 

[surferfb]

Well then allow apps to offer in app purchases next to apples IAP solution and we will be safer.

Or, hear me out, let Apple stay closed, and those who want to sideload and use alternate stores can use Android, Apple runs its platform the way it wants, and the free market decides! The people who prefer closed get closed, and the people who prefer open get open. Big Brother EU doesn’t artificially declare choice isn’t allowed because they’re zealots ideologically opposed to it.

But no, that makes too much sense. So instead the EU will try to solve its innovation problem that was created by having far too much regulation by adding more regulation. (You’d think they’d realize digging yourself out a hole rarely works, but these bureaucrats are clearly not the sharpest tools in the shed.)

 

[AppliedMicro]

Don’t selfishly take millions upon millions of users’ preferences away

I contend that (most) consumers do not have a preference for closed systems.
They have a preference to get everything with minimal fuss and effort.

Apple runs its platform the way it wants, and the free market decides!

There is nothing preventing Google from closing its platform (if not by disallowing sideloading, through reliance on Play services). And having a single platform isn’t much of a market.

The EU correctly identified that the relevant markets that were by big tech the ones for third-party apps, digital goods/content and services.
Not operating systems.

You can’t regulate another half a dozen relevant mobile operating systems or app ecosystems into existence.
But you can make sure that healthy and fair competitions can exist for applications, digital goods/content and services.

How? 👉 By regulating the underlying fabric or ”infrastructure”

That’s what they did. Prevent the companies from anticompetitively leveraging their control over operating systems to distort the markets that depend on them.

👉 You can have closed platforms - and Apple can create them whichever way they want.

But you provide a large, dominant platform for third parties that has gatekeeping power between thousands of businesses and consumers, you can’t exploit that as a quasi monopolist in the EU.

Also, Apple still reserves the right to review and approve any apps for their platform. And I haven’t noticed the having any objections to it. 👉 There is your secure, trusted “closed” experience, from a security point of view.

Apple stay closed, and those who want to sideload and use alternate stores can use Android, Apple runs its platform the way it wants, and the free market decides! The people who prefer closed get closed, and the people who prefer open get open.

There are myriad factors for consumers purchasing decisions and choice between iOS and Android (or phones that run either of these OS). And closed or open platform - whatever that is supposed mean - is just one. Does my mother use iOS because it’s closed? Not at all! She uses it, because I’m familiar with it and able to help her. And communicate with her,

And the customers that have not chosen Android - dozens of millions of users in the EU - still deserve to benefit from fair, efficient and competitive markets for software/content on their devices. And have choice in operating systems and hardware devices that provide it. Regardless of whether they are 25% or 50% of the population. And so do the business users that cater to them with their iOS apps - rather than being forced to resort to a single remaining alternative that’s slightly more open (but, again, not guaranteed to stay so).

Last but not least: Considering that…

• “side-loading” of unreviewed apps on iOS has been a thing for more than a decade (for enterprise users - but therefore also a risk from a software security standpoint, due to Apple’s lax enforcement of certificates)
• Apple still retains the right to review all apps for distribution to consumers
• third-party developers leaving Apple’s App Store and “forcing” users to third-party stores is not a real “thing” - not even on Android where it would be technically/legally feasible
• many apps (the oft-cited Uber) do process in-app transactions without Apple’s involvement or an Apple Account required

…the “closed” experience you claim isn’t all that. It’s largely a myth and hasn’t really been that closed to begin with.
At least with regards to the App Store (and alternative stores/purchasing options), hardly anything changes for you.

 

[Ctrlos]

Or, hear me out, let Apple stay closed, and those who want to sideload and use alternate stores can use Android, Apple runs its platform the way it wants, and the free market decides! The people who prefer closed get closed, and the people who prefer open get open. Big Brother EU doesn’t artificially declare choice isn’t allowed because they’re zealots ideologically opposed to it.

But no, that makes too much sense. So instead the EU will try to solve its innovation problem that was created by having far too much regulation by adding more regulation. (You’d think they’d realize digging yourself out a hole rarely works, but these bureaucrats are clearly not the sharpest tools in the shed.)

The EU's 'innovation problem' is largely down to all their tech companies being acquired by, badly ran by and promptly shut down by American tech firms.

 

[I7guy]

The EU's 'innovation problem' is largely down to all their tech companies being acquired by, badly ran by and promptly shut down by American tech firms.

Ironic because American tech firms in the Arab are regulated they are so badly run.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Or, hear me out, let Apple stay closed, and those who want to sideload and use alternate stores can use Android, Apple runs its platform the way it wants, and the free market decides! The people who prefer closed get closed, and the people who prefer open get open. Big Brother EU doesn’t artificially declare choice isn’t allowed because they’re zealots ideologically opposed to it.

Or heer me out. Private property is private property. If Apple doesn’t like it they shouldn’t sell things. Rent it out or lease it, but don’t pretend it’s a purchase

But no, that makes too much sense. So instead the EU will try to solve its innovation problem that was created by having far too much regulation by adding more regulation. (You’d think they’d realize digging yourself out a hole rarely works, but these bureaucrats are clearly not the sharpest tools in the shed.)

Indeed we have too much regulation between the states instead of standardized on the EU level.

Instead of 27 different ones we get 1 single regulation.

 

[wbeasley]

Sure we do! We just strongly disagree with their philosophy.

As we should when their philosophy includes arbitrarily restricting the functionality of the devices we paid for or when their philosophy supposedly grants them the divine right to enforce an exploitative business model.

well disagree even more strongly and stop buying Apple products.
then you wont have any issue 😉

 

[wbeasley]

Surely it cant be long before Apple get tired of the EU demands and just set up an initial screen that says

Do you want iOS or Android on this phone?

The iOS version stays as is, closed, controlled.
The Android version is a bog standard one that lets you do what you want but locks out any specific iPhone hardware they dont want to share.

Solves pretty much all the complaints...

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Surely it cant be long before Apple get tired of the EU demands and just set up an initial screen that says

Do you want iOS or Android on this phone?

The iOS version stays as is, closed, controlled.
The Android version is a bog standard one that lets you do what you want but locks out any specific iPhone hardware they dont want to share.

Solves pretty much all the complaints...

Well Apple would unironically probably sell the best android phones on the market with that 😂.

But sure if they want to commit economic suicide it’s up to them 🤷‍♂️

 

[AppliedMicro]

Surely it cant be long before Apple get tired of the EU demands and just set up an initial screen that says
Do you want iOS or Android on this phone?

They won’t.

Because their greed for commissions on digital content is the very reason why they’re fighting and maliciously feigning compliance with the U.S. court order and the DMA.

And that greed would remain unsatisfied, when Apple does not operate an application store for Android phones - or one that’s able to compete with Play, let alone the most popular one.

The iOS version stays as is, closed, controlled.

I’ve read that (trying to be) clever attempt at a cop-out suggested many times. 😂
It won’t - because even if there’s a selection of OS upon initial power-on, it will still be subject to the same (DMA) law.

…provided that “enough” users keep selecting or using it, of course.
But wouldn’t they, given the price of iPhones?
If you want an Android phone, many other phones will be considered better value (price/specs).

 

[Luftkopf]

I think Apple is going about the EU all wrong, and that they’re going to have to re-think the way they charge for access to iOS and the App Store in general.

Well the crux is that license is sold and in my reading of existing EU rulings is counted as sale of goods with the device and isn’t separable. So unfortunately Apple needs to do some radical changes to enforce their ownership and not exhaust their rights upon sale

Software as a Product - The European Union Goes There

We’ve written a number of posts on whether, in various jurisdictions across the United States, software and other forms of electronic/magnetic code…

www.lexology.com

https://www.tlt.com/insights-and-events/insight/cjeu-determines-that-the-supply-of-computer-software-is-sale-of-goods/

I don’t have the time to read that closely, but that seems to be discussing liability issues, and not the architecture of the software model.

Thry can’t and don’t - since it’s simply not true.

It’s not at all difficult.
Apple can make all the money they want from transactions through their store.
But they are limited in their ability to unfairly leverage their status as the OS developer against other stores.

Apple have no intention to compete fairly against other stores.
That’s why they’re trying again and again - in the U.S. and Europe - to concoct new scheme to unfairly advantage their own store and discourage users and developers from using alternative payment/transaction processing options.

Apple are in denial - they’re refusing to compete.

Instead trying to be “clever” by coming up with business rules designed to get away with the DMA and the “EPIC” ruling merely on paper - but not with their intent. Which is not hard to grasp or comply with - they just obstinately refuse to.


You can get it.
Nothing has changed in your ability to download or pay everything through Apple.
Or Google, for that matter. You can enjoy a nice closed Google experience - even though Android has other options.

And as for the inexperienced and vulnerable users - I frankly don’t but it that it’s such a massive danger.
It hasn’t been on Windows either (if you update regularly and don’t tinker or pirate).

You’re missing the point of a closed system. It’s not about my wanting to only source my apps from a central location, it’s about the totality of the system, so my conspiracy minded family members don’t get talked into disabling whatever protections have been put in place to side load malware by their sovereign citizen friends.

From a personal perspective, it doesn’t matter. I can deal with it. I will be annoyed with developers who pull their apps from the App Store, but unless it’s mission critical, I will just find an alternative, and be a little grumpy.

They won’t.

Because their greed for commissions on digital content is the very reason why they’re fighting and maliciously feigning compliance with the U.S. court order and the DMA.

And that greed would remain unsatisfied, when Apple does not operate an application store for Android phones - let alone the most popular one or one that’s able to compete with Play.

The type of greed that will lose a CEO their job if they don’t do. As set out by U.S. law.

 

[AppliedMicro]

it’s about the totality of the system, so my conspiracy minded family members don’t get talked into disabling whatever protections have been put in place to side load malware by their sovereign citizen friends.

The underlying issue is your family members being conspiracy minded and getting tricked. Not the OS.

The type of greed that will lose a CEO their job if they don’t do

So will violating the law and committing perjury.
Well, maybe not in the U.S.

As set out by U.S. law.

What law? I’m not aware of any law that requires CEOs to maximise profits - and be removed by law if they fail.

Anyways, other business cultures and their CEO strive to provide good value to not only shareholders - but also consumers and society at large.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

well disagree even more strongly and stop buying Apple products.
then you wont have any issue 😉

Actually, I'd have more issues. I would happily switched if services like Find My and iMessage or hardware like Apple Watch were interoperable with other platforms. To say nothing of the hundreds of dollars worth of software I would be losing access to.

I'm sure the lack of interoperability is entirely coincidental, though.