Apple Announces Ability to Download iPhone Apps From Websites in EU

[I7guy]

If every vendor's distribution of Android is different than the others then Apple has the majority of the market share at 34%, followed by Samsung at twenty-something % and then other vendors.

(Your premise is flawed, you can get from every distribution of linux to any other by changing the installed packages since Linux (the kernel) itself is the same)

Apple hardware wise for smartphones in q4 2023 according to counterpoint research has a 23% market share. Slightly above Samsung. So if that is your definition of dominant…

Apple is being penalized because smartphone manufacturers buy their operating system for $1 instead of devoting $$$ into r&d. it’s a fake duopoly.

 

[webkit]

So you acknowledge that there is an alternative to iOS. Does not this mean there is CHOICE and COMPETITION to iOS in the mobile OS market.

so your lack of CHOICE and COMPETITION is only once the consumer has made a CHOICE between the competing mobile OS.

is that not a Consumers CHOICE to pick a mobile OS that is a walled garden over a mobile OS that is open.

I've always acknowledged that there was an alternative to iOS and have consistently said iOS is one of two (not the only) major mobile operating systems.

The issue here is that Apple has blocked app access CHOICE and COMPETITION in a major segment of the mobile OS market.

Just because there is an alternative (or even more than one) doesn't give a dominant company controlling a notable part of a market (in this case as part of a duopoly with Google/Android) the right to restrict competition and engage in anticompetitive behavior. There were desktop OS alternatives to Windows in the 1990s (e.g., Mac OS, OS/2, Linux, BeOS, etc.) but that didn't given Microsoft the right to violate antitrust laws and engage in anticompetitive behavior.

 

[brofkand]

It’s super easy, barely an inconvenience. You don’t think there will be thousands if not millions of developer accounts just established to be in good standing and “selling” a million free apps just to get notarized.

Just how developer accounts are sold for Pennie’s on the dollar that have that already

They don't need to go through all that to sell scam apps on websites. The App Store is lousy with scam apps as it is. They can sell them on the App Store today.

Sideloaded apps cannot violate Apple's sandbox so if you trust Apple's sandbox, you are not opening your phone up to malware.

 

[webkit]

That’s exactly what it is.

Incorrect.

Android fork 1, android fork 2. Do you think all of these vendors use exactly the same operating system. It’s like saying all Linux based distros are identical.

Many computer makers were able customize Windows for their machines but it was still Windows and largely (too) controlled by Microsoft. There aren't hundreds of Android skins/ROMs/etc. in the EU. You are incorrect here too. However, if you want to play that game then Apple has a dominant position by having THE largest share and control of the mobile OS market but the reality, again, is that the iOS/Android duopoly is the real factor here.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Most people don't know how to protect themselves.

That’s their problem, and not mine to suffer for their limitations.

Not sure were you live, but there's no such thing as absolute freedom. Freedom is a relative term. Your freedom has limits and it's based on parameters and rules. You break those, and you lose it.
You have the freedom to jump off a bridge, yet there's a sign forbidding you from doing it.
Just like there are laws to protect your freedom and police to enforce them,

Well where I live you can jaywalk without legal consequences because it’s a right you have, but if you cause harm you will suffer the consequences for playing dumb games.

Companies don’t have nether the right more the freedom to limit customers however they want for their own “security “

Without the AppStore safety rules and the security measures originally implemented on the iPhone, software piracy and malware will now spread.
Both Developers and Users will be affected by this change. Enjoy your freedom based on digital anarchy.

You’re making a categorical error on galactic proportions.

The AppStore with its security measures will still exist, and isn’t threatened at all.
The security measures still exist in iOS and the world won’t burn to a crisp.
If what you call how the windows platform, MacOS platform, Linux platform etc is digital anarchy for allowing people to install things not approved by the company overlords who parents to know what’s best for you.

Users are perfectly safe installing games from Steam while they uninstall the Macappstore, they are completely fine downloading photoshop from adobes webpage without it being signed by Apple, they are completely fine installing open source software from GitHub without any harm coming to them.

White the jailbreaking community (who are forced to disable all security systems by the way) are completely fine installing software on their own devices.

Piracy= is illegal already
Spreading malware= is illegal

In EU we have I believe close to 1/10 of the fraud rate compared to the USA, because we entrust the government to do the actual job of protecting our security and privacy instead of allowing companies to do what they believe is necessary while protecting nobody at all.

 

[Abazigal]

This is obvious.

It's a pretty good read overall, and I find my self nodding in agreement to the points raised.

Building Under Regulation [215.]

An essay on the EU Digital Markets Act and Apple’s Update on apps distributed in the European Union (and some personal history)

hardcoresoftware.learningbyshipping.com

Strange bedfellows, when a former Microsoft executive makes the most compelling arguments against the DMA. I think the best takeaway is something we all already knew from the start - that Apple isn't a monopoly (at least where market share is concerned), that the DMA was specifically designed to target US companies, and the only reason is to wrest control over the App Store and remake the mobile app market.

No doubt we will continue to see more pushback against Apple by the EU in the coming weeks and months, not least because the authorities need to appear to be on the ball and not give the impression that Apple still retains much power in deciding who can and cannot operate a third party app marketplace in the EU.

The irony will come in time when a bad actor arises and the EU then expects Apple to ensure that their own citizens are safeguarded from said bad actor who probably came about because of said DMA in the first place.

My suggestion would be for Apple to not be timid in calling out the DMA as bad regulation when the situation calls for it. Apple may not have a choice if they are forced to walk back on prior actions (like what happened with Epic Games) because of threats by regulators, but in the very least, Apple can continue to stick to its principles and not look weak or misled.

 

[I7guy]

Incorrect.

Think more correct than not.

Many computer makers were able customize Windows for their machines but it was still Windows and largely (too) controlled by Microsoft.

All of these vendors have the capability of changing the operating systems core functionality such as adding another App Store.

There aren't hundreds of Android skins/ROMs/etc.

each vendor has their own version and can create a new operating system. Hence a fake duopoly.

in the EU. You are incorrect here too. However, if you want to play that game then Apple has a dominant position by having THE largest share and control of the mobile OS market but the reality, again, is that the iOS/Android duopoly is the real factor here.

True. Apple has 27% share while Samsung has a 34% share according to canalys. Other vendors put Samsung and apple neck in neck.

 

[webkit]

Think more correct than not.

All of these vendors have the capability of changing the operating systems core functionality such as adding another App Store.

each vendor has their own version and can create a new operating system. Hence a fake duopoly.

True. Apple has 27% share while Samsung has a 34% share according to canalys. Other vendors put Samsung and apple neck in neck.

The issue was with Apple’s control of a major segment of the mobile OS market where they BLOCKED alternative app stores (among other things). Android, the other major player, isn't allowed to block alternative app store either. It's only fair that the two major mobile OS players have to follow the same rules.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Apple hardware wise for smartphones in q4 2023 according to counterpoint research has a 23% market share. Slightly above Samsung. So if that is your definition of dominant…

Apple is being penalized because smartphone manufacturers buy their operating system for $1 instead of devoting $$$ into r&d. it’s a fake duopoly.

Apples market share is not relevant to establishing their dominance

Being dominant =\= illegal.
You must stop making this erroneous statement all the time. Nobody have said apple being dominant is illegal. And it’s an objective evaluation

When a company is identified to be dominant it obligates them to be more careful in how they engage with the market and competition. Aka the corporate responsibility to not cause undo harm is stricter.

In the same way a company with 10 employees doesn’t have the same strict standards and requirements as a 10.000 employment company

 

[I7guy]

Apples market share is not relevant to establishing their dominance

Being dominant =\= illegal.
You must stop making this erroneous statement all the time. Nobody have said apple being dominant is illegal. And it’s an objective evaluation

When a company is identified to be dominant it obligates them to be more careful in how they engage with the market and competition. Aka the corporate responsibility to not cause undo harm is stricter.

In the same way a company with 10 employees doesn’t have the same strict standards and requirements as a 10.000 employment company

The dma are laws based in a subjective evaluation. Yes, subjective not objective.

 

[I7guy]

The issue was with Apple’s control of a major segment of the mobile OS market where they BLOCKED alternative app stores (among other things). Android, the other major player, isn't allowed to block alternative app store either. It's only fair that the two major mobile OS players have to follow the same rules.

Yes, it’s their (apples) store. The eu created these rules out of a subjective determination.

 

[Samplasion]

Apple hardware wise for smartphones in q4 2023 according to counterpoint research has a 23% market share.

32.5%.

So if that is your definition of dominant…

Moving the goalposts again?

Apple is being penalized because smartphone manufacturers buy their operating system for $1 instead of devoting $$$ into r&d. it’s a fake duopoly.

Oh so now Android is a single OS.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The dma are laws based in a subjective evaluation. Yes, subjective not objective.

no, you need to forget everything about the DMA. This has absolutely nothing whatsoever with it. It’s only about article 102-109 of the the founding treaty of EU. This is 70 years old or so.
A dominant position is objectively established, there close to zero subjectivity to this designation. It has zero to do with monopoly, markart share etc etc
Having A dominant position is 1 million percent legal to have.

A seperate legal case against Google have already established that Apple is a dominant position by proxy that Google failed to prove that Apple is a competitor towards their android market share.

 

[I7guy]

no, you need to forget everything about the DMA. This has absolutely nothing whatsoever with it. It’s only about article 102-109 of the the founding treaty of EU. This is 70 years old or so.
A dominant position is objectively established, there close to zero subjectivity to this designation. It has zero to do with monopoly, markart share etc etc
Having A dominant position is 1 million percent legal to have.

A seperate legal case against Google have already established that Apple is a dominant position by proxy that Google failed to prove that Apple is a competitor towards their android market share.

Yes I’ve reviewed article 102. It’s a subjective opinion that allows the label of gatekeeper. Thinly threaded opinions.

I don’t have to like the legislation, but like death and taxes it is a reality.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It's a pretty good read overall, and I find my self nodding in agreement to the points raised.

Building Under Regulation [215.]

An essay on the EU Digital Markets Act and Apple’s Update on apps distributed in the European Union (and some personal history)

hardcoresoftware.learningbyshipping.com

Strange bedfellows, when a former Microsoft executive makes the most compelling arguments against the DMA. I think the best takeaway is something we all already knew from the start - that Apple isn't a monopoly (at least where market share is concerned), that the DMA was specifically designed to target US companies, and the only reason is to wrest control over the App Store and remake the mobile app market.

Indeed it’s an interesting read, but still a shockingly wrong in how the EU legal philosophy works. And the criticism is kind of expecting closer to how the U.S. tries to target it. Aka the Chicago school of economics in regards to markets and antitrust vs the EU ordoliberalism school of thought. terms liberal market economyand coordinated market economy to distinguish neoliberalism and ordoliberalism.

Ordoliberal theory holds that the state must create a proper legal environment for the economy and maintain a healthy level of competition through measures that adhere to market principles. This is the foundation of its legitimacy. The concern is that, if the state does not take active measures to foster competition, firms with monopoly (or oligopoly) power will emerge, which will not only subvert the advantages offered by the market economy, but also possibly undermine good government, since strong economic power can be transformed into political power.

The irony will come in time when a bad actor arises and the EU then expects Apple to ensure that their own citizens are safeguarded from said bad actor who probably came about because of said DMA in the first place.

Hahaha, this shows such a deep disconnect between the reality and fiction that you and many other on the Us side have constructed from god knows from instead of trying to understand what the fundamental principles dictate everything EU makes.

If or when a bad actors arise EU will not lift a single finger against apple to safeguard anything. The security standards, privacy protections and laws already exist that spells out exactly where apple’s responsibility starts and ends. Everything else is completely irrelevant and self serving by companies according to their ideals.

No doubt we will continue to see more pushback against Apple by the EU in the coming weeks and months, not least because the authorities need to appear to be on the ball and not give the impression that Apple still retains much power in deciding who can and cannot operate a third party app marketplace in the EU.

My suggestion would be for Apple to not be timid in calling out the DMA as bad regulation when the situation calls for it. Apple may not have a choice if they are forced to walk back on prior actions (like what happened with Epic Games) because of threats by regulators, but in the very least, Apple can continue to stick to its principles and not look weak or misled.

Good luck as your suggestion will lead to a very expensive lesson and Apple will likely be used as a perfect market example of what not to do.

But hey it’s their money.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Yes I’ve reviewed article 102. It’s a subjective opinion that allows the label of gatekeeper. Thinly threaded opinions.

I don’t have to like the legislation, but like death and taxes it is a reality.

The article 102 isn’t a the regulation. It’s the 70 years of legal precedent you need to read.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Apple hardware wise for smartphones in q4 2023 according to counterpoint research has a 23% market share. Slightly above Samsung. So if that is your definition of dominant…

More than 50% of app revenue in Europe.

that the DMA was specifically designed to target US companies

It wasn’t. With the exception of Spotify, the biggest beneficiaries can and probably will be American companies (such as Netflix, Epic, Microsoft, YouTube, Amazon).

Strange bedfellows, when a former Microsoft executive makes the most compelling arguments against the DMA

The largest part revolves around how Microsoft had it worse, did worse and their product was received worse than Apple’s.
He sounds somewhat bitter that Microsoft couldn’t successfully pull off such a closed, walled garden OS themselves.

That said, he acknowledges (unlike some posters here) that the DMA covers “products and services all deemed to be critical infrastructure in the digital world”, how the PC‘s openness allowed third parties to innovate, and that we may have seen a peak in platform innovation.

And also that the regulation strive for balance in allowing competition and opening up - as well as security, privacy and allowing Apple to maintain its brand promise and business model of a first-party store (just not as the only store).

 

[MilaM]

The irony will come in time when a bad actor arises and the EU then expects Apple to ensure that their own citizens are safeguarded from said bad actor who probably came about because of said DMA in the first place.

Apple's App Store is such a mess. At this point, I could see an alternative store compete successfully solely on the premise of providing a truly curated selection of great apps, without all the junk that Apple is hosting currently.

I'm aware that Apple is fighting copycats, phishing and scam apps with a lot of vigour. It's still remarkable how many slip through the cracks every day.

 

[webkit]

Yes, it’s their (apples) store. The eu created these rules out of a subjective determination.

The rules were about addressing anticmpetitive behavior by dominant companies which is a reason behind antitrust laws, and has been for ages.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Sideloaded apps cannot violate Apple's sandbox so if you trust Apple's sandbox, you are not opening your phone up to malware.

I can't tell if those defending Apple don't understand this... or are choosing to not understand it

 

[turbineseaplane]

Apple's App Store is such a mess. At this point, I could see an alternative store compete successfully solely on the premise of providing a truly curated selection of great apps, without all the junk that Apple is hosting currently.

I'm aware that Apple is fighting copycats, phishing and scam apps with a lot of vigour. It's still remarkable how many slip through the cracks every day.

I'd love an alternative App Store that is ONLY for Paid/Upgradeable Apps
(no subscriptions)

I think Apple is a little afraid to find out how many folks want no part of the subscription world they are pushing on iOS

 

[Sophisticatednut]

More than 50% of app revenue in Europe.

It wasn’t. With the exception of Spotify, the biggest beneficiaries can and probably will be American companies (such as Netflix, Epic, Microsoft, YouTube, Amazon).


The largest part revolves around how Microsoft had it worse, did worse and their product was received worse than Apple’s.
He sounds somewhat bitter that Microsoft couldn’t successfully pull off such a closed, walled garden OS themselves.

That said, he acknowledges (unlike some posters here) that the DMA covers “products and services all deemed to be critical infrastructure in the digital world”, how the PC‘s openness allowed third parties to innovate, and that we may have seen a peak in platform innovation.

And also that the regulation strive for balance in allowing competition and opening up - as well as security, privacy and allowing Apple to maintain its brand promise and business model of a first-party store (just not as the only store).

I would say it’s a very interesting legislation that apparently targets American companies ( America bad) and also will benefit American companies disproportionately also ( yay America not bad…?)

And obviously no American app developers will be able to benefit or abuse this new possibility, because the U.S. government is going to ban them from selling apps in EU🤔

Or perhaps EU will prevent any American developers from existing in EU… for some reason

But obviously it’s only to benefit EU companies… @Abazigal none of the tens of thousands of American companies and developers can’t benefit

I can't tell if those defending Apple don't understand this... or are choosing to not understand it

Apparently, they seem to have the perspective that sideloading= jailbreaking = zero security = doom and gloom.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Apple's App Store is such a mess. At this point, I could see an alternative store compete successfully solely on the premise of providing a truly curated selection of great apps, without all the junk that Apple is hosting currently.

I'm aware that Apple is fighting copycats, phishing and scam apps with a lot of vigour. It's still remarkable how many slip through the cracks every day.

Dude, just having an app with proper search function would make 99% of developers and users to leave.

To find anything of use in the AppStore is a chore without using Google first

Finding anything useful in steam is a miraculous bliss in comparison.
I’m of the belief Apple must have done it intentionally because anything else would be insane to ever have passed the QnA stage.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Side note:

that the DMA was specifically designed to target US companies

If you really want to find a law that specifically targets one country's companies, just for being from and based in that country...

👉 look no further than the U.S. of A.

Notwithstanding that the E.U. often seems more like a puppet to the U.S. in the very grand scheme of geopolitical things, that is how one targets a specific country's companies. Make it a matter national security. Especially when there's ample precedence of U.S. three-letter agencies gathering intelligence and wiretapping European targets.

 

[MilaM]

But obviously it’s only to benefit EU companies… @Abazigal none of the tens of thousands of American companies and developers can’t benefit

As things stand right now, I do see some problem for smaller US publishers, though. They could fear the ire of Apple outside the EU. It would be a nasty move by Apple, but they could make life really difficult for publishers who still need to be in Apple's App Store to reach customers outside the EU. Large corporations of the caliber like Google, Meta and Microsoft on the other hand can probably deal with this situation.