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Re: You knew!!!

Originally posted by otter-boy
Did the computer say it came with 10.3--no. Get over it.
If I buy a 2003 Dodge Viper with a 400 hp engine, knowing that they will upgrade the car to a 2004 Viper with a 500 hp engine sometime in the fall, I can't expect them to give me a free upgrade (either to the 2004 or just a bump the hp).

Like everybody keeps saying "we just assumed that we'd get the upgrade." What the **** makes you think that your *assumption* should compel Apple to do anything.
Also, some of you relied on posts "there were rumors going around. . ."
Listen to yourselves, they were rumors.

The people who bought G5s get free copies of the OS. Is it unfair, maybe, but it's a gift to them, not a jab at you.
I say, congratulations to all of you G5 owners who are getting the free upgrade--I hope you enjoy it. And I hope I enjoy 10.3 too when I buy my new mac.

This has been debated over and over and the result is CARS != COMPUTERS! Apple keeps things quiet first off while car manufacturers advertise everything way before it'll be released....like the newer Vipers which were in magazines at like the beginning of the year....you know when cars will be updated...not so with OSes and computers....so don't make silly arguments please...
 
Originally posted by daveL
What? There's no "stardard" Unix version numbering scheme. You're saying that simply because Panther is a .2 -> .3 upgrade in *Apple's* version numbering scheme, that it's a "minor" upgrade? That's not very informed. So a 20% - 25% performance improvement, coupled with dozens of new or improved features constitues a "minor" upgrade? I guess if the OS changes were the same, but Apple named it OS XI, you'd buy it? Give me a break.
Let's see here...

fast user switching
expose
finder update
iChat AV and Mail are just app updates
a real font manager
???

no documentation of this supposed 25% speed increase. impressive that 10.3 is as fast as 9.2 was... 🙄

yep, looks like a minor upgrade to me. finder has always been junk, FUS and font mgr are needed to catch up with other OS's, and expose is a gimmick. the only thing interesting is xcode, and that is just a seperate app that has nothing to do with OS X other than being bundled (a la MS) with it.

http://www.windowmaker.org/faq-chapter1.html#126

The numbering scheme is relatively simple, and is in the format of three numbers separated by dots. The first number is the "major" revision number. The second is the "minor" revision number. And finally, the third is the "patch level" number.
Just about every major *nix project uses this scheme.
 
Re: Re: Re: Pirating v. Fair Use

Originally posted by nalfein
That is just partially true. Apple OS X is based on bsd base system (call Darwin). This and only THIS part of the system which is release under GNU-GPL/bsd license. Actualy, you can develop software under every os and sell it as you want. BSD license Grand the right to SELL every software based on bsd licensed code without put your name on it(you dont need to distribute source code). GPL is little more invasive : if you base any software on GPL code you have to publish source code. You can use every GPL/BSD software to interract with and not modified the source code ans sell your application bundle with the GNU/BSD software. You know apple distribute source code for his open source part look at this.

http://developer.apple.com/darwin/
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.php
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/ bsd-license.php

and you know they charge 20$ because you need to pay for book/box/dvd(s)/labor(to put book and dvd in the box) i think it's a fair price

I've gone to the actual license itself....and here is the part you left out....
2.b. If the work is based off of it it becomes subject to the license itself. They may be charging for warranty which is perfectly acceptable but I hardly see that costing $129 but it's a loophole they can use to make a profit (as long as their coding is good).....


1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's
source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you
conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate
copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the
notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty;
and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License
along with the Program.

You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and
you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee.

2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion
of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and
distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1
above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:

a) You must cause the modified files to carry prominent notices
stating that you changed the files and the date of any change.

b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
parties under the terms of this License.

c) If the modified program normally reads commands interactively
when run, you must cause it, when started running for such
interactive use in the most ordinary way, to print or display an
announcement including an appropriate copyright notice and a
notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying that you provide
a warranty) and that users may redistribute the program under
these conditions, and telling the user how to view a copy of this
License. (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but
does not normally print such an announcement, your work based on
the Program is not required to print an announcement.)

These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If
identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program,
and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in
themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those
sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you
distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based
on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of
this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the
entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it.
 
you are talking about gpl licence ... the most basic system is more under BSD licence than GPL. nd this is exactly what i told you. For gpl if you made any change to source code, you need to publish your change. But if you take bsd license, the only think you have to do is not put your name on it ... this is exactly what apple did. They call it darwin ... not apple darwin or apple bsd.

and finally, did you ever ask mac os X to not show Blind/logo startup or try "dmesg" from terminal? if you do that, you will see some copyright from darwin base system.


Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993
The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
from my startup console

and i realy think 129$ is a good price for an os. If you're not happy with it go straight to linux world. Everything is free and pretty good, you have damn fast system with weekly(should i say daily) free update. I run dualboot Max OS X/Gentoo (wating till portage being porte to os X). You complaining about cie. who want you to respect there license and you want cie. to respect your license. It's kind of absurde non stop circle. You know i think i exagerate a little bit because i'm with you for one thing, I do love opensource software. I'm developper and i release my developpement under gpl because i think it realy worth it.

Peoples are only buying software on os X because they like to buy. You have plenty of pretty good free software but people always think because it's free, it's just a bunch of ...

one small exemple there is a software call DesktopManager to let you have multiple desktop(pretty good). but i have to browse for about 5 or 6 pages before i found link on google because everyone just talking about "Virtual Desktop" (not free software). And you know ... they both are nearly identical.
 
I can say it's true...

Originally posted by LimeLite
Everyone, if you bought a computer recently, just go to the website and try the up-to-date program. Enter your s/n and the date you bought it, and see if they'll give you a $20 copy. Apparently this is working for people who bought the AlBooks even 2-3 weeks ago.

They confirmed via email that they'd send me a copy (though it does say that promotion savings are subject to verification but they'll have a hard time denying me after they've already told me before that email that i'd get it and gave me an order number) and here are my "specs":

15" PowerBook G4 w/SD (Standard, not BTO)
Ordered: 9/16/03
Shipped: 9/18/03
Received: 9/22/03
Student Discount
Registered PB online on 9/22/03
(make sure you leave the dash off of your serial and call if your serial isn't in their db obviously....)
 
Originally posted by 1adonis1
If PANTHER is the topic, how isnt it part of the topic....judging by the post from other people,i say many people want to talk about it.

ok..i think i get it......Panther will be cool, it's the most kick ass OS ever. It's gonna ROCK! Is that better.

Software licensing and its piracy ramifications are another topic. Just because some poster says "I'm gonna pirate 10.3!" doesn't mean the whole thread needs to turn into a piracy debate.

I don't even know what your second sentence is about, but you need to chill.
 
Re: Re: You knew!!!

Originally posted by zync
This has been debated over and over and the result is CARS != COMPUTERS! Apple keeps things quiet first off while car manufacturers advertise everything way before it'll be released....like the newer Vipers which were in magazines at like the beginning of the year....you know when cars will be updated...not so with OSes and computers....so don't make silly arguments please...

Are you (macrumors reader presumably) saying you didn't know OSX 10.3 was around the corner?

You say "apple keeps things quiet" .... ehh what was that OSX panther sneak preview thing on the website for months??? hmmm...well in that sense the car argument is totally applicable.

let's face it - it was obvious. I waited and I will have Panther with my new mac. Macrumors helped me make my decision. If you read macrumors, you shouldn't be surprised again.

Rob
 
howabout...

Originally posted by jxyama
iDVD is basically useless unless you have SuperDrive.

to Wonder Boy: apple "ripping you off" doesn't give you the right or justification to rip them off back. if you have problem with apple's pricing or products, then don't buy them. i realize you are going to do whatever you will do, that's fine. and there might as well be others who will do the same and install one panther copy on two or more computers. i know you don't care. so be it, just stop trying to justify it in any way because you really can't.

is it more ok to rob a millionaire because it won't affect him/her as much as if you were to rob a low income person?

I'm not justifying anything but maybe you should put your question this way:

Is it more moral to rob a millionaire who is immoral/robs others of lower status than to rob a person of lower class but in better standing?

To this the simple answer would be yes, but would it still be wrong? Of course, unless you follow the biblical "eye for an eye" which I find suits my agnostic ass quite well sometimes 🙂
 
Re: Re: Re: You knew!!!

Originally posted by robeen
Are you (macrumors reader presumably) saying you didn't know OSX 10.3 was around the corner?

You say "apple keeps things quiet" .... ehh what was that OSX panther sneak preview thing on the website for months??? hmmm...well in that sense the car argument is totally applicable.

let's face it - it was obvious. I waited and I will have Panther with my new mac. Macrumors helped me make my decision. If you read macrumors, you shouldn't be surprised again.

Rob

Actually, Rob, I banked on Panther coming out sufficiently close enough for my PowerBook purchase to warrant a cheap upgrade....guess what, I got it and I have confirmation....I was not solely arguing based on the OS update but also on other Apple products....in any case many of Apple's things are very quiet, like the gen 3 iPod updates (at which time I was not a macrumors regular) which came out less than 4 months after I bought my 20GB and to make the sting worse the announcement was on my birthday....but in no way is a car argument applicable because they all trickle into the market at the same time, on top of that a car purchase isn't so much of a impulsive buy (in the sense that it's a lot worse to screw up on purchasing a crappy car not because you'll buy a PowerBook as soon as they come out, though many of us did). Apple never gave a time frame for Panther other than it will come before the end of the year, though it's entirely possible that bugs could make that goal unattainable and they'd have to reneg yet car manufacturers make minor revisions usually and have models ready for magazines to test far before they enter the market. In this regard you're almost assured of 2004 cars but not of 2003 Panther...You must also realize that not everyone is a macrumors reader, especially before they get shafted by apple, so this topic doesn't only apply to us...to conclude though I wasn't suprised and thanks to macrumors I have had my PowerBook G4 15" SD for 1.5 weeks now and I'm getting 10.3 in the mail, I also still have a copy of 10.2.7 that came with my computer....I think the timing of everything I've orchestrated in terms of my purchases warrants having my PowerBook early as well as two versions of Mac OS, you might not, but I do...considering I've only paid $28 more....
 
I personally don't care either way. I tried like many to get the $20 upgrade but my sn got rejected. Am I going to call Apple up and yell about it being unfair? No...I am not going to get mad at them. I bought my PowerBook knowing that it would have 10.2.7 on it. Apple never promised me Panther. I knew I could have waited and had it for sure, but I wanted it as soon as it came out. I already spent how much on my computer, so what is another $70? At least I know it will be worth it and I will be quite happy with it. Sure, I would have loved to get my hands on a free copy, but I am not going to get angry over something Apple never promised and has no reason to give to me for free. I might as well walk into an Apple store and demand a free Airport base station and a cinema display since I have an airport card and a DVI connector with my PowerBook...I don't see how it is any different than demanding that they give me a free Panther upgrade. They already gave me $300 off on my PowerBook, $30 off on my .Mac, and even threw in free second day shipping. So either way, I feel I came out the winner with a top notch computer and a reasonable savings.
 
sorry if this is posted twice

Umm, i didnt start the piracy talk...nor did i curve the topic in the piracy direction. I added my TWO opinions. And as far as I needing to chill, no buddy, i think that is you.
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Software licensing and its piracy ramifications are another topic. Just because some poster says "I'm gonna pirate 10.3!" doesn't mean the whole thread needs to turn into a piracy debate.

I don't even know what your second sentence is about, but you need to chill.
 
try this...

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
It still doesn't accept my serial number.

Call Apple to make sure your SN is in their db because you have a BTO 15" and a lot of people with BTO PowerBooks have had problems with their SNs not working. A few peope on the PowerBook specific thread for this have said that this may be an effect of them coming out of Taiwan or wherever and Apple not having their SNs for some reason. I dunno about that explanation but most problems have been born of BTO 'Books....
 
Re: sorry if this is posted twice

Originally posted by 1adonis1
Umm, i didnt start the piracy talk...nor did i curve the topic in the piracy direction. I added my TWO opinions. And as far as I needing to chill, no buddy, i think that is you.

Normally, this kind of thing is handled via PM, but since you've got it turned off I guess this is it.

You told another poster to keep quiet about his dislike for piracy talk. I corrected you on that matter, and a few posts later, here we are.

Post off-topic again and it will be deleted. Push it further and you'll be banned. End of discussion.

[edit - PM is private messages. Go to your User CP (link at the top of the page) and then Edit Options to enable it. Usually, it's enabled by default.]
 
my two cents...

but your computer can run without an airporl card...it is NOT an essential element to have a computer running; OS is.

I think sometimes it's the little things that count. I just switched to Mac (owning one, but have been working on them for awhile) and spent lots of money getting almost everything and if I got my powerbook the same day Panther is announced, I think it would make me feel just THAT much better about spending more money later on if Apple would be sensible to BE FAIR (not to give me special prev.) and give all new system purchasers the same update opportunity (ie. all G5 AND others get cheap update)
I wouldn't call and yell at them because I've done that many times (DOA prev. sent 12" Powerbook, iPod and both got updated the day after I received mine) BUT I would still log a complaint because honestly, a 10 day price gurantee just doesn't cut it... they count the day starting on ordering day (even though you can still cancel and they don't charge credit card yet), no mention of new products (good to surprise market, but...), plus shipping days...by the time you get it, they have new things out already. I dont' think it's fair to have peopel stuck on the older line and paid for the same price where as the guy that ordered the next day will get a much better one for the same EDUCATIONAL-DISCOUNTED price.

just my thoughts... because it happened to this new happy switcher... a few times...

but hey, love my powerbook. 🙂 I am glad there's such a tight and big community for support!!! now I should peeeeel myself away from the powerbook and pay attention to my gf! 🙂

good luck guys...I hope this Panther thing will get ironed out and people will get equal treatments! CHEERS!

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I personally don't care either way. I tried like many to get the $20 upgrade but my sn got rejected. Am I going to call Apple up and yell about it being unfair? No...I am not going to get mad at them. I bought my PowerBook knowing that it would have 10.2.7 on it. Apple never promised me Panther. I knew I could have waited and had it for sure, but I wanted it as soon as it came out. I already spent how much on my computer, so what is another $70? At least I know it will be worth it and I will be quite happy with it. Sure, I would have loved to get my hands on a free copy, but I am not going to get angry over something Apple never promised and has no reason to give to me for free. I might as well walk into an Apple store and demand a free Airport base station and a cinema display since I have an airport card and a DVI connector with my PowerBook...I don't see how it is any different than demanding that they give me a free Panther upgrade. They already gave me $300 off on my PowerBook, $30 off on my .Mac, and even threw in free second day shipping. So either way, I feel I came out the winner with a top notch computer and a reasonable savings.
 
Originally posted by iPC
I <sarcasm>love</sarcasm> that Apple charges $129 for a minor version upgrade 😡

(for those of you that understand the *nix version numbering scheme, you know what I mean)

And which *NIX versioning scheme is that? Don't generalize here -- there are many flavors of UNIX, each with their own versions.

How about Solaris? 2.5 -> 2.5.1 -> 2.6 -> 7 -> 8 -> 9. SunOS (a component of Solaris) remained a bit more stable: 5.5 -> 5.5.1 -> 5.6 -> 5.7 -> 5.8

Don't get me started on HP-UX. 10.20, 11.00, 11i. At least AIX and IRIX make some sort of sense.

How about Darwin, the BSD-based core of Mac OS X? It just so happens that the Darwin version number goes from 6.x to 7 with the release of Panther.

Or, how about the technology that Panther is based on? We happen to be moving from a FreeBSD 4.6 codebase to the FreeBSD 5.0 codebase.

The gist of this is that each flavor of UNIX has their own numbering scheme (to repeat your own statement, you would know this if you were at all familiar with *NIX versioning schemes.) They tend to follow the "standard" in that you have major.minor.patch. Most recent commercial *NIX operating systems, though, don't follow the convention to the letter -- it's as much about marketing as it is about versioning (see the Solaris example, above, for an extreme version of marketing.) In the Mac OS X world, going 10.2 to 10.3 represents a major OS release..
 
Re: Re: Panther is a worthy upgrade

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Not us beige G3 owners...

🙁

Guess I gotta upgrade my machine!

😀

But used G4s are way too expensive...

🙁

Guess I gotta sell a kidney!

😱
One name: XPostFacto. Just wait for it too come out for Panther.
 
Originally posted by iPC

If each point release supports less and less hardware (10.3 doesn't support beige G3's), how long until the G3 is no longer supported, and how long before the G3 is not in the iBook???

Each point release supports more hardware. Ie G5's ,15's Alum,fw800,usb 2.0 etc. But at some point you allways have to make a "business decision" as to what is the minimum hardware you support, As a long term software developer for the past 15 years, I first dropped support for 9'' inch screens (se30) and a couple of years ago for 12'' screens umm 5100? et all. Sure you can still run that small but it looks absolutely horrible🙂 You should have heard the bitching when one of my users had to replace ten 5 year's old and dirt cheap in first place monitors. Dropped support for 68k around same time🙂

So someone in apple said we have 0.5%(Guess) or whatever running Beige G3's and OS X based on surveys/feedback from Support/Guess etc and it will take x man weeks to support and test.
 
And now something totally different:

Requirements:
Macintosh computer with PowerPC G3, G4, or G5 processor; built-in USB; and 128MB of physical RAM.

1) Video conferencing requires a 600MHz or faster PowerPC G3, a PowerPC G4, or a PowerPC G5 processor; broadband Internet access (100 Kbps or faster); and a compatible FireWire DV camera or web camera.
2) Internet access requires a compatible service provider; iDisk requires a .Mac account; fees may apply.
3) Processor upgrade cards are not supported.

I hope that only means systems that had processors before a G3 (like 601, 603 and 604) and were upgraded are not supported! Otherwise I know a lot of people that will be majorly pissed, including myself!

groovebuster
 
Originally posted by groovebuster
And now something totally different:



I hope that only means systems that had processors before a G3 (like 601, 603 and 604) and were upgraded are not supported! Otherwise I know a lot of people that will be majorly pissed, including myself!

groovebuster
I read somewhere that beige G3 are not "supported"...
I'm not sure you will be able to install Panther (out of the box installation) on unsupported computers. Now I'm sure workarounds will be found to make those installations possible. But for now, assume it is not possible.
 
I'm talking about Quicksilvers (in my case) with upgrade boards installed. Like a 1,467GHz Giga Designs upgrade in a 733MHz Quicksilver 2001.
 
Originally posted by iPC
As for my iBook, I just tried the uptodate thing (did not even know of it before this thread started) and it did not acknowledge my SN. *sigh* Oh well.

If each point release supports less and less hardware (10.3 doesn't support beige G3's), how long until the G3 is no longer supported, and how long before the G3 is not in the iBook???
When did Apple stop selling the beige G3?
 
Apple is so bad that when you click on Panther on the frontpage of Apple.fr or Apple.be you get to a page describing 10.2!!!

Why pay 149 Euros when those people cannot even update a webpage correctly. Just a bunch of crappy people behind it I guess. And once again the OS 'upgrade' coupon that came with new macs to the bin. Think of it next time, when you buy a new Mac just throw that coupon away - Apple wants your money, that's all.

A happy 10.2 user for the next 5 years.
 
Originally posted by jer2665
Stealings bad.
Hey now! Don't go throwing around your moral judgements just cuz you happen to dislike stealing. I mean really.. what's so bad about it? Where else can you get everything you want for nothing... other than christianity.

Think of it this way... stealing is like a credit card you never have to pay off. 😛

xDanX
ahhhh...thanks dude. i was having a bad day until your hilariously unsound grasp of economics cheered me up.
maybe if apple had been making computers back when 'pirating' still involved swashbuckling and walking the plank your point would have some kind of worth.

Hahha.. best post of the entire thread.

Just to summarize this entire thread...
It turns out that Apple is being really great about the whole upgrade path. They're offering users who bought g5's AND Alumi-books as far back as the beginning of August a VERY cheap method of updating their OS. In August rumors were saying "Panther in September" and sure, it didn't prove true... but Apple has gone back and made it applicable now. That's not just nice of them, that's extrodinary. So not only are they making amazing computers and software, all of which we enjoy so much that we spend hours of our free time discussing.. but it turns out, their also hella nice guys.

All the more reason to pay $129 or $199 or whatever....
 
is it more ok to rob a millionaire because it won't affect him/her as much as if you were to rob a low income person?

YES. Well, it is if you have any sense of morality, anyway. Say someone had spent their life saving for a Powerbook and another person, walking out of the store behind them, had just asked dad for the money from the families millionss, knowing he could do so again tomorrow if he wanted.

Rob the first bloke and he'll never be able to afford another for years, rob the second and he'll get another - no problem. Not only that but in a country like America where the rich tend to stay rich and the poor poor (social mobility in the US is amongst the lowest in the world, despite the free country propaganda) the chances are that the rich person never earned their money. Just inherited it.

So the second bloke has worked hard and saved money and made sacrafices. Of course it's more wrong to rob him.

I'm not saying it's not wrong, just that these things are relative.
 
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