Apple Announces Penryn Mac Pros and Xserve

[CWallace]

While overall computer prices have dropped significantly in that time, Apple has almost doubled what the cost is for the entry internally expandable system.

And yet the new Mac Pro will crush a Power Macintosh G4 in every performance category. And a Mac Pro is cheaper then the majority of equivalent workstations from the major Windows PC suppliers.

Up until recently Apple has always had a midrange internally expandable system.

"Recently" being a decade ago with the G3 minitower (which was the tower), G3 desktop and G3 AIO. Prior to that, Apple had six families (4xxx, 5xxx, 6xxx, 7xxx, 8xxx, and 9xxx) comprising three towers, two desktops, and one AIO. Add in all the clone makers and their products, and the resulting fratricide hurt the Mac's share of the PC market. One of Steve's first steps was to "kill the clones" and reduce Apple's own product line.

There is nothing wrong with the Mac Pro. It is a fantastic workstation and a fantastic deal at that price. But that doesn't mean we should be content that it should be our only option in wanting a more expandable system.

For the record, I believe that Apple should at least differentiate within the product line a bit more.

Instead of a new Mac Tower, just offer a Mac Pro with a single 3000-series quad-core CPU, but leveraging the case and video and drives and everything else. I'd rather see this then a quad-core iMac (ducks the rotten tomatoes from the quad-core iMac fans). And if Apple was really worried about a Core2 Extreme cannibalizing the Mac Pro market to the point it would hurt the Xeon machine, then just ship it with a Core2 Duo and make it the "headless iMac".

I'd also like to see the MacBook Pro (perhaps just the 17") model ship with a quad-core unit to help differentiate it more from the MacBook.

This way, Apple can still leverage the majority of their fixed costs for each form factor to ensure they still "bring home the bacon".

 

[MrCrowbar]

If I'm doing work in Logic Studio, Final Cut Pro and Motion:

8 cores with standard video card
4 cores with 8800 GT?

I'm planning on bumping to 4g of ram anyway, so I have to pick between one of those configs as they're roughly the same price..

Logic 8 works fine on my Macbook (Gen one, GMA950 integrated graphics) as long as I don't go crazy with effects and more than 30 tracks. I'd go for the worst graphics card and as many cores and GHz as possible. Also Running 2 hard drives in striping mode (RAID 0, I suggest mirroring that to 2 other drives for safety, so it's RAID 10) becomes necessary when you do a lot with real audio tracks and samples. 4GB of RAM is plenty for Logic. I find Logic 8 to be very buggy though...

Final cut Pro runs fine too, so does Motion as long as you don't do crazy 3D stuff and want it to look pretty in real time. Go for CPU power.

 

[takao]

True, but when Apple controls 17% of the market and not 7%, they can likely be a bit more ambitious in their product line since their total sales volume will be enough to support more products profitably.

true but 7% isn't that little either ... many pc manufacturers have a bigger line up and they for sure don't have 7% marketshare

apple takes so many risks in some gadgets (apple tv, iphone) ... so for me that argument simply doesn't strike really

I understand where you are coming from in terms of upgrading. I, too, would have preferred the Mac Pro since I have had towers for the past 20 years. But the Al iMac offered enough performance for what I needed at a good enough price point it was too good for me to pass up. If the difference from a 24" iMac and a 23" Mac Pro was $1000 instead of $2000+, I would likely have eaten the difference for the sake of future expandability.

true but for me the most important aspect is adding additional internal harddisks (no desktop clutter please ...) for other stuff there are lots of markets which currently are mostly all done through USB (TV tuners .. external sound cards ... which IMHO totally goes against the "reducing desktop clutter" argument)

But then, Apple hasn't always been that great about future expandability with the last Mac Pro. Notice how many people here want the new Mac Pro because Apple never offered few new options for the old Mac Pro so they need to buy an entirely new system.

actually i think the current situation is part of the problem not the reverse... because there is only a very high priced desktop available which doesn't really sell huge masses there is also very little market for upgrading/extension cards.. and thus we get less of such cards ... and thus less reason for buying an extendable computer like the mac pro

 

[CWallace]

This wouldn't be as much of an issue if the iMac were headless. As a gamer, my primary monitor is not just used for the computer, but also has Component inputs for connecting game consoles.

A headless iMac with 2GB and some version of the GeForce 8 series could be done for around $1.5 which is a lot more reasonable.

Well the iMac is intended to be an All-in-One machine.

Apple would have to come up with a desktop like the old Power Macintosh 7xxx series or it would be nice if they just offered a Mac Pro with a single 3000-series Core2 Extreme quad-core which would likely save a grand or so, but still clearly differentiate it from the more powerful Mac Pro.

And if Apple was really worried about a Core2 Extreme cannibalizing the Mac Pro market to the point it would hurt the Xeon machine, then just ship it with a Core2 Duo and make it the "headless iMac".

 

[MacFly123]

Was I the only one that thought they added a glossy black finish to the inside molding??? It totally looked like that to me in the pic on the home page, http://www.apple.com/ and I think that would have been VERY HOT. I\\\\\\\'m disappointed they didn\\\\\\\'t now, and it would have been so nice with the new theme oh well....

And where are the new Cinema Displays? Don\\\\\\\'t get me wrong though, I\\\\\\\'m happy.

 

[CWallace]

true but 7% isn't that little either ... many pc manufacturers have a bigger line up and they for sure don't have 7% marketshare

apple takes so many risks in some gadgets (apple tv, iphone) ... so for me that argument simply doesn't strike really

Yes, but they're shipping those boring beige boxes they get for pennies from the Taiwanese. Apple is using those cutting edge Al boxes they're paying serious money for.

Seriously, I do understand your point. Which is why I think Apple can be a bit more ambitious within their current form factors in terms of product differentiation.

And I do understand the desire to eliminate desktop clutter. An iMac with two or three external HDDs hanging off it certainly defeats the aesthetic. I use NAS storage because I want my MacBook to access it, as well, so I am fortunate in that aspect.

As to the video cards, why nVidia or Apple can't write a unified driver that works with all their cards like they do with Windows annoys and confuses me.

 

[Wild-Bill]

3-5 week WAIT for the 8800GT????


Way to plan ahead, Apple.

Man, someone is REALLY asleep at the wheel in Cupertino. FIRE the Mac Pro Supply Chain manager ASAP, if not sooner.

 

[christophertin]

Please educate a noob.

According to the Mac site:

The Mac Pro now uses faster 800MHz DDR2 fully buffered ECC memory, an industry-standard memory technology that allows for more memory capacity, greater bandwidth, and better reliability. To take full advantage of the 256-bit-wide memory architecture, four or more FB-DIMMs should be installed in the Mac Pro.

Please note: Apple created a more robust thermal specification for the Mac Pro FB-DIMM heat sinks that provide more efficient cooling than many other FB-DIMMs. These FB-DIMMs require less airflow to stay cool and allow the internal fans to spin at slower speeds, improving system acoustics. FB-DIMMs made by other manufacturers that do not include a sufficient heat sink may cause the fans to run faster (and louder) or the memory chips to run slower so as not to overheat.

That last paragraph seems to say that only Apple-branded RAM contains these more-efficient heat sinks. I really don't want to spend the extra money having Apple install a pair of marked-up GB chips, and would prefer to buy them from a third party and install them myself. Is this no longer possible?

 

[CWallace]

3-5 week WAIT for the 8800GT????


Way to plan ahead, Apple.

Man, someone is REALLY asleep at the wheel in Cupertino. FIRE the Mac Pro Supply Chain manager ASAP, if not sooner.

Does Apple use custom video cards for the Mac Pro? If so, that might explain the delay in sourcing them, especially if it was a last-minute decision to add them to the line.

 

[AviationFan]

If I'm doing work in Logic Studio, Final Cut Pro and Motion:

8 cores with standard video card
4 cores with 8800 GT?

I'm planning on bumping to 4g of ram anyway, so I have to pick between one of those configs as they're roughly the same price..

From your list, Motion is the only application that would benefit significantly from the better graphics card. Determine how important Motion is for you, and you will have answered your question!

- Martin

 

[milo]

Listen here Francis.... I'm not looking at "equivalent PC's.... I'm looking at the fact that Apple has just raised the price point of the Mac Pro by an amount that I personally do not feel is justifiable.

Get off my back about the design alright? You say that "Change for no good reason is a waste..." huh??? Well how about those iMacs then? The iMacs did not need a change. They have changed about 4 times since the PowerMac G5 came out. The only external differences between the original PMG5 and the MP are the addition of a second optical bay and rearranged ports on the front/back.

The design is OLD and TIRED.

Wow, keep your pants on already. It's just a computer, it's not like I stabbed your puppy or something.

You DO need to look at equivalent PC's. The cost of a box is determined to a large degree by the cost of its parts, and these new cpu chips are fairly expensive. If nobody else is selling these machines cheaper, then apple would seem to be charging a fair price.

And they didn't even really raise the price. Before, the cheapest was $2299, and that's still exactly the same. Before, an 8 core machine cost $3499, now it's $2799. That's a big price drop for anyone in the market for an 8 core machine.

And I still haven't heard any specific complaints about what's wrong with the current design. If there's nothing wrong with it besides the fact that it hasn't changed in a while, that's change for change's sake. The iMac hasn't had a major change for a long time, and more changes are to be expected since it has a screen built into it and people are staring at it for hours on end. How much do you even see your MP, isn't it under your desk?

I think most MP buyers are interested in performance and things like easy upgradability, not whether the box has a flashy new design. The complaint about design sounds more like it's coming from apple fanboys who will never buy a MP than people who will buy it because it provides the power and expandability they need.

 

[iMikeT]

Finally but no quad-core standard?

 

[CWallace]

According to the Mac site...

That last paragraph seems to say that only Apple-branded RAM contains these more-efficient heat sinks. I really don't want to spend the extra money having Apple install a pair of marked-up GB chips, and would prefer to buy them from a third party and install them myself. Is this no longer possible?

The Crucial FB-DIMMS we use in our HP's come with impressive heat-sinks. Heck, HP uses the same brand for the FB-DIMMS they ship with the machines.

So I think you'd be safe with third-party, especially from companies like Kingston or Crucial which guarantee their performance and compatibility with the OEM part (especially since the OEM usually buys their parts from Kingston and Crucial).

Worse case, if your Mac Pro fails, just pull the after-market RAM and just send it in with the original Apple RAM.

 

[ruftytufty]

Wonder how long it will take places like OWC and Crucial to get the new memory....and at what price.

-Kevin

I would imagine not that long. There are manufacturers already producing PC2-6400 FBDIMMs (800MHz), including Netlist, which is OWC's supplier of "Apple Certified" memory. And, they already have the Apple-approved heat spreaders in their supply chain, so getting supply of the new memory should be pretty quick.

Also, Transcend already lists a "DDR2 800 FB-DIMM for Mac Pro" - http://ec.transcendusa.com/product/memstd.asp?Cid=102 - $90 per 2GB DIMM, though I haven't tried to verify whether this is really the right stuff (proper heat spreaders), since I'm not really in the market right now.

 

[CWallace]

Finally but no quad-core standard?

The Intel 5000 series CPU used is a quad-core CPU. So yes, it is standard in either the single or dual-CPU configuration.

 

[Peace]

Finally but no quad-core standard?

Huh ?

 

[Loa]

You didn't answer the question. What do you want that this didn't deliver?

I expect the Mac Pro, and Apple in general, to be a leader. Now, with a price hike, it's just catching up.

Nothing I don't like, nothing I really like either. And that's the problem for me: brand new Mac Pros shouldn't be lukewarm. They should be smoking hot. This one clearly isn't.

Nisaea

 

[Loa]

Feh! I am really glad that I waited. I would have missed a lot.

Like what???

Nisaea

 

[Peace]

I expect the Mac Pro, and Apple in general, to be a leader. Now, with a price hike, it's just catching up.

Nothing I don't like, nothing I really like either. And that's the problem for me: brand new Mac Pros shouldn't be lukewarm. They should be smoking hot. This one clearly isn't.

Nisaea

Can you please post a link to where you see a price hike?

 

[Analog Kid]

For all the heat the G5 takes these days, I have to say the Intel chips aren't blowing my socks off... According to Apple's own performance page, the Mac Pro struggles to double the performance of the Quad G5 with twice as many cores and 30% higher clock rate per core, 6MB of cache per core and 2 years of added experience.

Going Intel may have had other advantages, but the G5 still holds its own performance wise.

 

[lostboy85]

Yawn, nothing really special about this update. I was was going to buy one if they included a blu-ray drive, oh well its funny to see apple having the software to produce HD video but you cant watch it in HD.

 

[FF_productions]

If I'm doing work in Logic Studio, Final Cut Pro and Motion:

8 cores with standard video card
4 cores with 8800 GT?

I'm planning on bumping to 4g of ram anyway, so I have to pick between one of those configs as they're roughly the same price..

8 Cores with the 8800 GT if anything, you'll shoot yourself in the foot for getting the lower end Mac Pro.

You'd be willing to risk half of your speed just to get a better video card?

If your in Education you can get a discount on this stuff.

 

[valdore]

Hah! My Clovertown 'Pro is no longer the latest and greatest ever!

 

[zedsdead]

8 Cores with the 8800 GT if anything, you'll shoot yourself in the foot for getting the lower end Mac Pro.

You'd be willing to risk half of your speed just to get a better video card?

If your in Education you can get a discount on this stuff.

Between the two options, I would go with the 8800 Gt over the 8-Core...the 2.8 Quad-Core is more than capable for what you want to do.

 

[Sweetbike40]

do i dare tell my friend who just bought his 2 weeks ago about this? more computer for less than what he paid. i warned him. oh well.

i remember when the G5's first came out. those commerical made it out to be the best thing in the world. not too long ago that was, and mine is so outdated.

it sucks to spend a small fortune on a computer only to have it outdate so quickly.