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Apple Apparently Wants to Offer NFL Sunday Ticket to Apple TV+ Subscribers at No Extra Cost, But NFL Balks

OK - so NFL is concerned that Apple would cannibalize the broadcasts on CBS/Fox...
- CBS + Fox are both available for free over the air
- Sunday Ticket doesn't include in-market games. So I can't watch my Detroit Lions in Michigan on Sunday Ticket - so I'll go to my antenna or to YouTube TV or something.
- Apple is still paying market rate for the rights to Sunday Ticket. What more does the NFL want?!

A lot of people still rely on OTA TV - I get it. But it's time for the NFL to get with it and go all-in on streaming. Apple has like $200B in cash. NFL needs to be partners with Apple to get the game out to all devices. Of course, the better experience will be on Apple TV, etc.
 
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HobeSoundDarryl said:
I guess we're about to see 400 posts bashing the NFLs greed while praising Apple's generosity.

I suspect there is more to this story... a whole other side... like Apple is not wanting to help the NFL make MORE money by going this way vs. the traditional way NFL Sunday Ticket is monetized. In other words, another round of Apple trying to get something for towards nothing and expecting the owner of the content to just roll over and accept it for some reason. We've seen this play out MANY times before.

My guess is that unless Apple "shows the NFL the money," this will be yet another red herring with someone else soon announcing they THEY have acquired rights to NFL ST... just like rumors of Apple buying the MGM library (before Amazon actually bought it)... and FOX before that (Disney)... and Warner before that (AT&T, now Discovery)... etc.

It would be VERY, VERY nice to have the NFL ST option on AppleTV. Imagine upgrading the equipment to show all of the games in 4K or more too. Wow! That would sell a LOT of AppleTVs and I- for one- LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that little box.

But Apple needs to learn to pitch a true win:win, where the partner on the other end of the deal tangibly benefits by choosing to take Apple's offer. That's why the rumors keep building up the potential and then someone else actually gets the media. Who got that huge video library? Oh, the other player. Who purchased the AAA game studio? Oh, the other player. And so on.
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Upgrading what now? Why would Apple upgrade the equipment for CBS, Fox, ABC and NBC? Why would they upgrade the broadcast facilities in 32 stadiums to make them 4K capable, or buy the mobile production units for the previous 4 bohemoths? These are productions of those networks, they wouldn’t be broadcasting anything - they’d be rebroadcasting those companies feeds.

Sunday Ticket is a massive money sink. It doesn’t need to be a bigger one. Most games are free over the air - your target market is out of market fans for other teams, who will often watch their game they can’t see then likely revert to broadcast after. The only way DirecTV possibly makes a dime on the paltry 2 million subscribers it gets, is by selling them the whole TV package. That’s what Apple wants. To offer it for much cheaper than DirecTV charges and target higher than 2 million additional subscribers.
 
BradWI said:
If Sunday Ticket is so cheap, more people will get it and watch games on that instead of on regular TV, hurting those networks' ratings and advertising revenue.
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I'm not so sure this is the reason for the NFL to balk at the price. If they insist on keeping the present blackout rules in place, then local teams that get broadcast on local CBS and Fox affiliates will not be available via Sunday Ticket. Just like now. Same for national games like Sunday Night Football; those games are not available via NFLST now.

I think the NFL is in a cash grab here; and they want to keep up the idea NFLST is a premium service. Including it for free with a TV+ sub shatters that illusion.

I hope that whoever gets the deal offers better features than the present NFLST does. I can't even watch full game replays on the service now.
 
Why do I need a monthly subscription when I only want to watch a game or two every now and then? Why not let me just pay to watch that ONE game?
 
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BuffaloTF said:
Upgrading what now? Why would Apple upgrade the equipment for CBS, Fox, ABC and NBC? Why would they upgrade the broadcast facilities in 32 stadiums to make them 4K capable, or buy the mobile production units for the previous 4 bohemoths? These are productions of those networks, they wouldn’t be broadcasting anything - they’d be rebroadcasting those companies feeds.

Sunday Ticket is a massive money sink. It doesn’t need to be a bigger one. Most games are free over the air - your target market is out of market fans for other teams, who will often watch their game they can’t see then likely revert to broadcast after. The only way DirecTV possibly makes a dime on the paltry 2 million subscribers it gets, is by selling them the whole TV package. That’s what Apple wants. To offer it for much cheaper than DirecTV charges and target higher than 2 million additional subscribers.
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Sorry for the confusion- perhaps poor choice of words. The main concept was upgrading the user experience to 4K through an Apple delivery of NFL ST. How that gets done may take cooperation from many players but it would likely move a lot of new AppleTV 4K boxes for football fans.

Based upon how Apple usually goes at media partnerships, I doubt Apple would want to chip in at all just as I doubt Apple will offer a sweet enough deal to the NFL to get NFL ST. So it doesn't really matter beyond dreaming & speculating anyway. My bet would be on Amazon or one of the other "hungry" streamers to get NFL ST... just as Apple was rumored to be in the bidding for MGM, Warner, Fox etc too.

Apple has all the money in the world but tends to spend it like it's 1997 Apple on any such stuff. And thus players who have rolled out hardware and/or streaming services AFTER to well after AppleTV rolled out GEN1 have many millions more paying subscribers than Apple. It's like Apple wants to play ball in the space but doesn't want to spend more than relative pennies on anything beyond their own home-grown creations. The sellers of content simply want what Apple wants: to maximize revenue & profit too.
 
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CarAnalogy said:
This would be fantastic but I doubt Apple will eat the cost of what the NFL wants them to pay. I would subscribe to TV+ again for this because it would be a great deal.
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I‘m an AT&T customer and DirecTV satellite subscriber. The past two years I’ve received Sunday Ticket for free.
 
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BradWI said:
If Sunday Ticket is so cheap, more people will get it and watch games on that instead of on regular TV, hurting those networks' ratings and advertising revenue.
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They’ll still blackout the games shown on broadcast TV as they do today.
 
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I would like to see Apple offer a TV+ Sports Package. With the acquisition of baseball, and now the MLS it would be cool to have them all bundled into a $9.99 subscription (with the NFL Sunday ticket) on top of the TV+ one currently. Then over time as Apple acquires the rights to show more sports (European football please!), they could simply add to that and increase the viewing numbers for TV+ itself in the process.
 
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HobeSoundDarryl said:
These exact same things were spun by people here against 4K before Apple sold a 4K AppleTV and 1080p before Apple sold a 1080p AppleTV.

Then Apple rolls one out and it's as if such claims were never said... and Apple is not crazy for embracing the upgraded resolutions. It seems that no one needs it only while Apple doesn't sell it. But as soon as there is an 8K AppleTV, "everyone should upgrade because the resolution is incredible", "shut up and take my money", etc. Apparently the human eyes ability to see detail is currently evolving at a remarkable pace... making a big leap every 3 or 4 years... right in line with Apple rolling out the product to match. Amazing! ;)
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🤣

Streaming is so highly compressed, in most cases, you're not getting "4k" anyway ... 3840x2160, yes but smeared by lossy compression to something better than HD, but nothing like uncompressed 4k.
 
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Can anyone that has had Sunday Ticket explain something? I've always assumed that they just broadcast the CBS or FOX feeds in other markets. Is that correct? If so, then why would FOX or CBS care if people watched their feeds on Apple TV instead of over the air or Comcast? FOX and CBS still get paid based on ad views.

EDIT: Nevermind. I answered my own question. They probably want to protect their cable fees.
 
I'd like to add a thought to this discussion that might be helpful in why NFL is balking. I work in the broadcast industry directly with companies like NFL, Fox, CBS, NBC everyday. The production of the NFL games is NOT done by the NFL. That cost/burden is carried by the broadcaster. They pay for the production people, the on-air talent, the trucks, the cameras(which by the way are 1080p at best for most broadcasters because broadcast 4K and 8K cameras are EXPENSIVE as are the trucks to do a 4K production), and the network transmission(my part of this whole thing). I know for a fact that there is NOT another production truck rolled in, another prod team or any "extra" stuff being done for those Sunday ticket game feeds. In short, the video stream(which includes all the camera shots, statistics, and overall production of what you see) on ST is being given to you from that broadcaster who has the game rights and is airing it on the national networks. NFL does NOT want to make those broadcasters angry because at the end of the day, NFL ST is all being done as part of that whole game production which is underwritten by the broadcaster.

I would guess that NFL negotiates online stuff like getting a production video streams for NFL ST with each of the broadcasters as part of that huge contract that is renewed every so many years for the rights to air the games. NFL Network(owned by the NFL themselves) exists and does air some games that are done with their own production trucks but by and large, the NFL(of which NFL Network is a small part) does not want to spend any money to bring you the game. NFL is the content owner and they care A LOT about getting the most amount of money out of their content as possible while putting out the least amount of money.

If the NFL lets Apple make Sunday Ticket free, then as people said earlier in the discussion, the broadcaster would most likely lose viewers and thus lose ad revenue. Ad revenue is how all the broadcasters make up the huge amounts of money that they pay NFL for the content. NFL does NOT want to screw their rights holders who have already paid large sums of money to them(aka the big broadcasters). I suspect it's a tricky thing between the NFL, Apple(or Amazon) and the various broadcasters when it comes to the Sunday Ticket stuff going online that could disrupt viewership if the right balance isn't found. For the record, I am NOT saying I think NFL should force Apple to charge for ST. I just don't see how Apple wins a battle that while it looks right for the consumers(us) is not good for the NFL and its' rights holders. The NFL and the broadcasters are all multi billion dollar companies. Apple and NFL ST are just a small contribution(whatever that final dollar amount ends up being) compared to the deals that NFL has with the broadcasters. NFL will not bend to Apple's will if it ends up hurting their biggest content licensers which would in turn hurt the NFL. The money for the Apple NFL ST deal would have to come close or exceed the deals the broadcasters are doing with NFL for Apple to really have a strong argument. NBC, FOX, CBS all paid around $2 billion for their last renewal and ESPN was reported to have paid $2.7 billion. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/sports/football/nfl-tv-contracts.html
 
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awdodson24 said:
- Sunday Ticket doesn't include in-market games. So I can't watch my Detroit Lions in Michigan on Sunday Ticket - so I'll go to my antenna or to YouTube TV or something.
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I heard at some point that Apple was pushing for no blackouts. Their position was it's too confusing.
 
Spiffyis5150 said:
If the NFL lets Apple make Sunday Ticket free, then as people said earlier in the discussion, the broadcaster would most likely lose viewers and thus lose ad revenue.
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Why would watching the same feed on Apple TV affect ad revenue? As you pointed out, CBS and FOX still control the broadcast and the ads.
 
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skiguy45 said:
🤣

Streaming is so highly compressed, in most cases, you're not getting "4k" anyway ... 3840x2160, yes but smeared by lossy compression to something better than HD, but nothing like uncompressed 4k.
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Where does one get uncompressed 4K? Over the air 4K is compressed. 4K Blu Ray is compressed.

I agree with the basic concept but if we're fully dreaming about Apple actually getting NFL ST (unlikely)... and then that they would stream it at 4K (likely a pigs fly, hell frozen over scenario)... we might as well dream it will look at least as good as 4K content we can stream on AppleTV now... which, yes, is highly compressed but seems to look better than 1080p or less.

Incidentally, I have been watching some 4K stuff on the FOX app- particularly college football games. Yes, also compressed but WOW they look good vs. the same games on the network over the air. For anyone interested, while the college football season is about over, there's a few more things still to be seen on there. Check this guide: https://support.fubo.tv/hc/en-us/ar...hat-events-in-4K-HDR-are-coming-up-on-fuboTV- It's been pretty good about keeping up with stuff available on the dedicated apps that is in 4K.
 
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BaldiMac said:
Can anyone that has had Sunday Ticket explain something? I've always assumed that they just broadcast the CBS or FOX feeds in other markets. Is that correct? If so, then why would FOX or CBS care if people watched their feeds on Apple TV instead of over the air or Comcast? FOX and CBS still get paid based on ad views.

EDIT: Nevermind. I answered my own question. They probably want to protect their cable fees.
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Actually, it's more about de-valuing the deals the broadcasters have made with the NFL. The broadcasters worry about if any of them are negatively impacted as generally, if it can happen to one of them, it could happen to all of them and it could set a precedent that could hurt them all later. I don't want to say it's collusion but they all are watching each other to make sure no one gets more or less than the other in terms of gain(and in this case loss)
 
Spiffyis5150 said:
Actually, it's more about de-valuing the deals the broadcasters have made with the NFL. The broadcasters worry about if any of them are negatively impacted as generally, if it can happen to one of them, it could happen to all of them and it could set a precedent that could hurt them all later. I don't want to say it's collusion but they all are watching each other to make sure no one gets more or less than the other in terms of gain(and in this case loss)
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I don't understand what you are getting at here. How would it devalue their deals?
 
I'm a lifelong football fan, and I honestly have trouble watching much NFL in realtime anymore.
(we DVR and start an hour or two behind and skip the ADs, as well as the waste of time halftime show)

The ADs are horrible.

Pizza, beer, trucks, 4 layer burgers, gambling and then a few pharmaceutical products to "ask your doctor about" ...

..largely to deal with the horrendously unhealthy lifestyle getting rammed down your throat at every AD break.
 
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skiguy45 said:
🤣

Streaming is so highly compressed, in most cases, you're not getting "4k" anyway ... 3840x2160, yes but smeared by lossy compression to something better than HD, but nothing like uncompressed 4k.
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The NBC Sports 4K English Premier League feed on YouTube TV would like a word (praying they fix the contrast issue coming back from the break)
 
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