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I don’t think the government should dictate how a private company’s OS should work without very good reason (health, safety, etc.) because the government shouldn’t be interfering on the free market. In my opinion, “I want an iPhone and a Samsung Smartwatch” isn’t a good reason, let alone a very good one.


Then buy an Android and a Galaxy watch! Of Apple doesn’t want to support them the government shouldn’t force them. I’d rather Apple spend its time and money on new features rather than being told by the government to force compatibility with its competitors products.
Why are you so against interoperability? How much easier would it be if you could quick share from Android to iPhone? Imagine being able to fully use your watch if you switched to iOS?

For the record I have a Garmin watch, which has limited functionality on iOS (I have an iPhone 16 pro which I am now selling), and an Android. I can actually reply to text messages (although everyone here in the UK uses whatsapp), where as on iOS I can only clear notifications. Why? because Apple wants me to buy an apple watch and lock me in, and thus stifle competition.

yourself and german beer are implying that you won't be able to use apple stuff if you own an apple product which is ridiculous. All Apple needs to do is open the Api's on the expensive hardware that you/I have purchased, and own. License agreements aside (they can eff off).

The EU was spot on with USB-C, it's a shame the DMA doesn't mandate fully functional third party keyboards on iOS.
 
Why are you so against interoperability? How much easier would it be if you could quick share from Android to iPhone? Imagine being able to fully use your watch if you switched to iOS?
I’m not against interoperability. I’m against using the power of the state to force a company to change how its products work, and then to not even allow them to charge for their hard work. I’d be against it in cases where it would benefit Apple too.

For the record I have a Garmin watch, which has limited functionality on iOS (I have an iPhone 16 pro which I am now selling), and an Android. I can actually reply to text messages (although everyone here in the UK uses whatsapp), where as on iOS I can only clear notifications. Why? because Apple wants me to buy an apple watch and lock me in, and thus stifle competition.
And in my opinion that’s (or rather should be) Apple’s right. Whether it’s because as you think, Apple is trying to lock you in, or because they actually mean what they say about being concerned for the privacy and security of their users.

yourself and german beer are implying that you won't be able to use apple stuff if you own an apple product which is ridiculous. All Apple needs to do is open the Api's on the expensive hardware that you/I have purchased, and own. License agreements aside (they can eff off).
I am certainly not implying I won’t be able to use Apple stuff. Honestly I don’t wear a smart watch at all, and can’t foresee anything that would cause me to ever wear one. And if Tim Cook retires and the new CEO says “you know what, Apple is all about third party integration” then I have no issue with it. But , I am against the government forcing Apple to dictate how its products work. The EU has shown an alarming inability to think through the consequences of their regulations (Crowdstrike, Cookie pop-ups, etc.). Apple may not be perfect, but Apple knows better than the EU. Full stop.

The EU was spot on with USB-C, it's a shame the DMA doesn't mandate fully functional third party keyboards on iOS.
No they weren’t spot on. By mandating USB-C they froze innovation in charging ports. Now no one has any incentive to develop a better one - when Apple was clearly moving to USB-C.

In ten years we might have all been laughing at how big and clunky usb-c was like we do with usb-a, but the government has decided no more innovation.
 
Instead of Apple complaining about this stuff, I would like to see them come up with rigorously designed architectures and APIs to enable 3rd parties to use these.

Whenever they make APIs available for developers, they are giving 3rd parties access to valuable Apple technologies, so that blows a hole in their argument.

So I guess then they won't allow 3rd party devs access to the GenAI models that Apple has developed (as is rumoured), right?

As always with Apple complaining about such things, half of it is a legitimate security concern, but half of it is because they want to enable user lock in.
 
They don’t use OpenGL or Vulcan, PS5 use it’s own custom GNM.


Not sure how many times I'm going to repeat it. I'm discussing hardware capability. PS5 + Xbox Series GPU supports OpenGL/OpenCL/Vulkan

That the hardware being technically capable doesn’t matter
It's literally what I'm talking about.

Ps5 and steamdeck isn’t compatible anywhere across the software stack.

I've been discussing hardware capability since the beginning.
Something of which you argued was "They are as physically incapable" as in hardware wasn't compatible. You've switched arguments.

You’re buying a new phone every 3-5 years. Here you can even look at the impact assessment that was done to evaluate the options they had.

That study doesn't factor in Apple removing the cable from the box because lightning cables are so ubiquitous among most iPhone buyers.
It costs you nothing if you’re already an Apple developer.
App rejections cost engineering hours actually.
 
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Are we having into account that cables break, eventually? I say this because of all the e-waste-because-of-cables I’m receiving.

Yeah, not including them would be a step, although I personally keep using the previous cable and keep the new one in the box until I need it.

But I think that, if we really want to decrease the rate at which we generate e-waste, we should really focus on shifting towards a more sustainable model of consumption, and that starts with more durable products. Durable cables would be one. Repairable devices that are updated and maintained for at least a decade (with the powerful chips we have nowadays, it is possible) would be another one.

Look, I use an iPhone SE 3. It’s an awesome device. And even on iOS 18, with its A15 from three generations ago, it’s still plenty fast. However, I know soon they will keep cramming features into the OS and my device will eventually slow down. But even if they keep this features out for my device, like Apple Intelligence, I know after 6 or 7 years of the release of the iPhone 13 (2019?) they will stop providing updates to my iPhone. That means, that even if the complete redesign of iOS 26 runs well on my iPhone (and that’s a big “if”), it is likely that iOS 27 or, being lucky, iOS 28, will be the last operating system for this absolutely capable smartphone. I really hope they keep providing security updates for at least two more years, that would cover me until 2030, but then what? This iPhone covers absolutely all my needs and I don’t really need to get a newer, bigger iPhone. I’m happy with this old-looking iPhone.

It’s not only about the software. It’s also about the replacement parts. The iPhone SE was discontinued in December of last year, that means that 7 years after (2032) this iPhone SE 3 will be declared obsolete. Vintage? So better get any repair or battery replacement before 2032.

I know, I know, this many years is much more than what we already had two decades ago. However, if it were me, and I had to elaborate a plan to reduce e-waste, more important than recycling is reusing, and keeping those older, but perfectly capable devices running for much longer, even if they are missing new features.

I’d extend the software support for iOS devices up to 8 years (from the 7 we unofficially get) plus three more years of security updates. That’s 11 years in total.

In the same vein, I’d keep updating Apple Silicon Mac systems for at least 9 years, with the same philosophy: maybe leaving some features that need a beefier or more modern SoC in the sixth or seventh year, but releasing the new software until 9 years after the launch of that Mac. And then, another 3 years of security patches. A total of 12 years.

It’s not much more than what currently have, and that extra couple of years we would add, would significantly reduce e-waste allowing anyone who purchases a new device to use it for more than a decade. Even stretch them up to 15 years. Maybe it’s not economically sustainable, but the amount of e-waste generated each year because of the “getting the newest, shiniest device” every 2 or 3 years is also unsustainable. From the point of view of the e-waste but also because of the materials and rare earths needed for the manufacture of those devices. I think we should just slow down our consumption pace.
durability of cables is a factor. Apple could have made more durable cables but the cheap-but-durable material that other companies use for their cables are toxic for the environment. so it's pretty much a tradeoff.
 
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Why are you so against interoperability? How much easier would it be if you could quick share from Android to iPhone? Imagine being able to fully use your watch if you switched to iOS?
And then what happens afterwards?

Say Apple goes through and allows third party smart watches to access features like quick reply in the EU. Sounds good on paper.

And then, subsequent new features announced for iOS and macOS never make it to the EU because Apple doesn’t feel it’s worth their while to make it accessible to third parties. They have decided it’s easier to just not release it for said region at all.

Will you be okay with that?
 
Well we are speaking about law. And considering the pedantry you and some have been in some regards I would say it’s needed. Especially when the distinction is meaningful. Eu competition law doesn’t target trusts in any meaningful way.

Hence why the constant insistence to say” but Apple isn’t a monopoly they just have 30% market” yes because the legal concept of monopoly is non existent.

And even I know that in U.S. law cartels=/= trusts.

The term "monopoly" cannot appropriately describe the EU concept of "dominant position" because they operate under fundamentally different legal standards and thresholds. EU dominance can be established without meeting any US monopoly criteria, and applying American terminology risks importing inappropriate legal assumptions and analytical frameworks. Similarly, characterizing EU competition law as "antitrust" introduces historical US concepts like "trust-busting" that have no parallel in European legal development. So when you say “a cartel is a trust”, you’re confusing historical U.S. terminology with EU legal doctrine.

So no, clarifying this isn’t pedantry. If anything, casually collapsing these distinctions under a vague Americanized umbrella like ”monopoly” or ”antitrust” muddies the waters. Especially when EU institutions themselves reserve ”antitrust” for public communication in English, not in the actual legal instruments or jurisprudence
  • No historical concept of a trust in this sense.
  • No legal framework that revolves around trusts as entities.
  • The law targets “undertakings” (companies or associations thereof), and focuses on market behavior, not legal structure.
  • The concept of monopoly is completely different.
Using US terminology to describe EU law doesn't just misname things, it imports analytical frameworks, burdens of proof, and policy assumptions that don't belong in the EU system. It's like describing German constitutional law using American constitutional terms you lose essential meaning in translation.
This is hilarious. If the European Commission feels comfortable referring to them as "antitrust laws", then it's fine for people in this forum to refer to them as "antitrust laws". Nothing "Americanized" about it.
 
Not sure how many times I'm going to repeat it. I'm discussing hardware capability. PS5 + Xbox Series GPU supports OpenGL/OpenCL/Vulkan
It's literally what I'm talking about.
When you’re talking about this… how on earth does the hardware having technical feasibility help when the software such as the is and games lack actual capacity to be run on other software platforms? Sony isn’t stopping their games from functioning on windows or Xbox. Microsoft isn’t preventing their Xbox games from working on ps5 or Xbox series x.

Considering just about everything required to run them is missing or not supported
Then that’s my mistake as I meant software and not hardware.
That study doesn't factor in Apple removing the cable from the box because lightning cables are so ubiquitous among most iPhone buyers.
Apple isn’t required to include a cable…
App rejections cost engineering hours actually.
well that sounds like a bad apple service making it not worth their time being rejected over mundane issues.
 
This is hilarious. If the European Commission feels comfortable referring to them as "antitrust laws", then it's fine for people in this forum to refer to them as "antitrust laws". Nothing "Americanized" about it.
It’s for communication when it’s communicating in English. Obviously it still leads to communication errors when the legal implications and standards for antitrust and monopoly laws in the U.S. isn’t the same thing in EU law, nor has it ever been.

If you have read the 10-16~ paragraphs youbwould know the radical difference of what’s included, but would never be included in U.S. antitrust legislation.

It is very Americanized when you and others insists on using us legal definitions when arguing over European law.
Article 101

(ex Article 81 TEC)

1. The following shall be prohibited as incompatible with the internal market: all agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and concerted practices which may affect trade between Member States and which have as their object or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition within the internal market, and in particular those which:

(a) directly or indirectly fix purchase or selling prices or any other trading conditions;

(b) limit or control production, markets, technical development, or investment;

(c) share markets or sources of supply;

(d) apply dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage;

(e) make the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts.

2. Any agreements or decisions prohibited pursuant to this Article shall be automatically void.

3. The provisions of paragraph 1 may, however, be declared inapplicable in the case of:

- any agreement or category of agreements between undertakings,

- any decision or category of decisions by associations of undertakings,

- any concerted practice or category of concerted practices,

which contributes to improving the production or distribution of goods or to promoting technical or economic progress, while allowing consumers a fair share of the resulting benefit, and which does not:

(a) impose on the undertakings concerned restrictions which are not indispensable to the attainment of these objectives;

(b) afford such undertakings the possibility of eliminating competition in respect of a substantial part of the products in question.

--------------------------------------------------
Article 102

(ex Article 82 TEC)

Any abuse by one or more undertakings of a dominant position within the internal market or in a substantial part of it shall be prohibited as incompatible with the internal market in so far as it may affect trade between Member States.

Such abuse may, in particular, consist in:

(a) directly or indirectly imposing unfair purchase or selling prices or other unfair trading conditions;

(b) limiting production, markets or technical development to the prejudice of consumers;

(c) applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage;

(d) making the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts.

--------------------------------------------------
 
When you’re talking about this… how on earth does the hardware having technical feasibility help when the software such as the is and games lack actual capacity to be run on other software platforms?

If Sony and Microsoft used common APIs, developers can only focus on one set of APIs and deploy to multiple consoles.

Sony isn’t stopping their games from functioning on windows or Xbox. Microsoft isn’t preventing their Xbox games from working on ps5 or Xbox series x.

The fact that Sony/Microsoft doesn't use interoperable APIs means they're literally stopping their games from functioning on Windows/Xbox. Just like how Apple is using proprietary APIs which won't work anywhere else. I think you're arguing something I'm arguing with from Apple's side.

Anyways, it seems like you agree with me that it's technically capable via hardware to run these games so the issue is pretty much settled.

Considering just about everything required to run them is missing or not supported

Except the hardware is more than capable of running these games. It's a software issue. Not going to repeat myself again.


Then that’s my mistake as I meant software and not hardware.

I've been talking about hardware. So, you're talking about something off topic then.

Apple isn’t required to include a cable…

Assume Apple doesn't include the USB-C cable: when most lightning iPhone users return to buy a USB-C iPhone, they will be buying a USB-C cable separately because they don't have a spare one to charge the iPhone with. That increases emissions much more than just including the USB-C cable in the box.

Whereas if Apple kept lightning, they could simply remove lightning and only first time iPhone buyers would need to buy the cable separately. There are less first time buyers than returning lightning iPhone buyers.

making it not worth their time being rejected over mundane issues.

Great so, what's the issue?
 
Assume Apple doesn't include the USB-C cable: when most lightning iPhone users return to buy a USB-C iPhone, they will be buying a USB-C cable separately because they don't have a spare one to charge the iPhone with. That increases emissions much more than just including the USB-C cable in the box.

Whereas if Apple kept lightning, they could simply remove lightning and only first time iPhone buyers would need to buy the cable separately. There are less first time buyers than returning lightning iPhone buyers.

At this point that, most have people have a USB-c cable. My 70 year old parents are super tech-illeterate and they have multiple. Every laptop on the market uses USB-C, games consoles use USB-C, wireless headphones, headlamps, cordless-screwdrivers, etc. etc. etc.

I would have left Apple if they didn't change to USB-C. I refuse to ever own a phone again with proprietary charging. No exceptions. It's awfully nice that my wife and I (me on iPhone, and her with a Pixel) can share a cable, and then the kids can use the same cable to charge their Switch.
 
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Which is exactly how it should work! The market decides, not the government.

Maybe it's my economics background (one of my majors was Econ), but I just don't believe in a fully unregulated market, and think that consumer interests should come before business interests. The "free" market ignore too many variables that don't contribute to shareholder value.

The government is the people, and if the people decide they want a government that regulates business, then that is what should happen.

I applaud the EU. 👏🏻
 
At this point that, most have people have a USB-c cable. My 70 year old parents are super tech-illeterate and they have multiple.
My 70+ year old parents don't.

Every laptop on the market uses USB-C, games consoles use USB-C, wireless headphones, headlamps, cordless-screwdrivers, etc. etc. etc.

Eventually people would have it. Not in 2023.

I would have left Apple if they didn't change to USB-C.

Great. If enough people leave because Apple refuses to change to USB-C, Apple would naturally switch to USB-C. That's how it should work. Gov should stay out of it.
 
Or it’s to deliberately give yourself an unfair advantage over the competitors
Because how is a 3rd party actually able to compete with that as they can’t make their product connect better
That’s the point of a value added features. To give the manufacturer a leg-up. I don’t know why it’s so hard a concept to grasp. At any rate it’s not possible to spin it into something else.
 
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The government is the people, and if the people decide they want a government that regulates business, then that is what should happen.

I applaud the EU. 👏🏻
EU gave us annoying cookie pop-ups by the way. I'm going to wager that majority of the people didn't like that.
 
Or it’s to deliberately give yourself an unfair advantage over the competitors
Because how is a 3rd party actually able to compete with that as they can’t make their product connect better

- Coke leases vending machines that prevents pepsi from being loaded into the machine by contract.
- Amazon sells their own products and ranks their products higher than competing products in their own store. Other stores do this too.
- Tesla Superchargers don't have to support non-Tesla EVs (even though Elon opened it up to non-Tesla EVs)
- NVIDIA CUDA apis are exclusive to NVIDIA GPUs
- Amazon Echo devices only use Alexa
- Canon DSLR camera mount makes it generally exclusive to Canon cameras
Are you saying these shouldn't be legal?
 
That’s the point of a value added features. To give the manufacturer a leg-up. I don’t know why it’s so hard a concept to grasp. At any rate it’s not possible to spin it into something else.
Then don’t offer fake competition for your platform then
 
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The same could be said for the people clamouring for sideloading and third party app stores, which I believe is a vocal minority and not representative of the wishes of Apple’s user base overall.
1) the beauty with sideloading is, you can chose the prefered option, and 2) a minority does not mean you can ignore them. I think Apple does a pretty good job on accessibility, these are functions meant to make the use of iPhones better for a specific minority group.
 
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- Coke leases vending machines that prevents pepsi from being loaded into the machine by contract.
- Amazon sells their own products and ranks their products higher than competing products in their own store. Other stores do this too.
- Tesla Superchargers don't have to support non-Tesla EVs (even though Elon opened it up to non-Tesla EVs)
- NVIDIA CUDA apis are exclusive to NVIDIA GPUs
- Amazon Echo devices only use Alexa
- Canon DSLR camera mount makes it generally exclusive to Canon cameras
Are you saying these shouldn't be legal?
No what the European Union are saying is more likely this
As apple make the operating system it is deliberately giving its own products an advantage over the competition not on a hardware position
But a software position that not competitors will ever have the ability to achieve because it’s impossible
 
And then what happens afterwards?

Say Apple goes through and allows third party smart watches to access features like quick reply in the EU. Sounds good on paper.

And then, subsequent new features announced for iOS and macOS never make it to the EU because Apple doesn’t feel it’s worth their while to make it accessible to third parties. They have decided it’s easier to just not release it for said region at all.

Will you be okay with that?
Well, in that case Apple will lose customers because of petty restrictions.
 
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