Apple Asks All U.S. Employees to Share Vaccination Status, Still No Mandate

[nathansz]

No-one said that their individual rights are infinite. They do have limits. In this case, Jacobsen v. Massachusetts holds sway when it comes to "their rights" and "their choice".

It's amazing how many people tend to scream "muh rights!" for this yet have zero knowledge on what their actual rights are.

BL.

i’m not a usa citizen and don’t know all of your court cases

i was viscerally reacting to the idea of people here yelling “freedom” and also quite likely being in favour of making abortion illegal

i will await all of the “freedom fighters” from this thread chiming in to tell me that they find the new law texas abhorrent.

 

[bradl]

i’m not a usa citizen and don’t know all of your court cases

i was viscerally reacting to the idea of people here yelling “freedom” and also quite likely being in favour of making abortion illegal

i will await all of the “freedom fighters” from this thread chiming in to tell me that they find the new law texas abhorrent.

I totally agree. That was what I was referring to with the hypocrisy comment above. They can't have it both ways without making themselves out to look foolish, deservingly being called out for it, and justifiably so.

BL.

 

[nathansz]

I totally agree. That was what I was referring to with the hypocrisy comment above. They can't have it both ways without making themselves out to look foolish, deservingly being called out for it, and justifiably so.

BL.

frankly the freedom fighters in this thread have no fear of of looking foolish or even arguing against themselves

i’m not a gambler. but if i was forced to put money down it would be on them not having a thing to say about it

perhaps in a few days once maxxxnews or reddit or wherever they get their talking points from tells them how to parse the contradiction they will storm in…

 

[A MacBook lover]

I totally agree. That was what I was referring to with the hypocrisy comment above. They can't have it both ways without making themselves out to look foolish, deservingly being called out for it, and justifiably so.

BL.

I support abortion (which by the way is completely off topic) and this is clearly a grasp a weak point


I also support vaccine choice. So where is the hypocrisy? I think it’s interesting you stretch across two completely different topics to make a point.


I haven’t been asked once for a vaccine card, and I live in the nations capital. It should stay this way.

 

[I7guy]

I support abortion (which by the way is completely off topic) and this is clearly a grasp a weak point


I also support vaccine choice. So where is the hypocrisy? I think it’s interesting you stretch across two completely different topics to make a point.


I haven’t been asked once for a vaccine card, and I live in the nations capital. It should stay this way.

I also support vaccine choice and also support limited access of the unvaccinated to public venues. Broadway upon their reopening already has this…so it’s not a hypothetical.

 

[Howard2k]

There should not be any religious exemption to getting a vaccine.

Agreed. Is there anyone who thinks “The Tooth Fairy came to me in a dream and told me not to take it” is reasonable?

 

[nathansz]

I haven’t been asked once for a vaccine card, and I live in the nations capital

that’s unfortunate. cases are on the rise in dc so deaths will be as well in the coming weeks. vaccine passports would really help get things under control there

 

[bradl]

I support abortion (which by the way is completely off topic) and this is clearly a grasp a weak point

not necessarily. Those that claim “my body, my choice” on vaccines but don’t allow that same right when applied to another issue reeks of hypocrisy. You can’t use that for one cause then disallow it for another. It is disingenuous and hypocritical.

I also support vaccine choice. So where is the hypocrisy? I think it’s interesting you stretch across two completely different topics to make a point.

I haven’t been asked once for a vaccine card, and I live in the nations capital. It should stay this way.

You just proved my point about not knowing the limits of a person’s rights, especially in relation to vaccinations.

Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Courtcase in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.

this case was decided by a 7-2 majority, so it wasn’t something simply controversial or split decision. Writing for the majority, Justice John Harlan then wrote:

The Court held that "in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand" and that "[r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."​

​

Furthermore, the Court held that mandatory vaccinations are neither arbitrary nor oppressive so long as they do not "go so far beyond what was reasonably required for the safety of the public". In Massachusetts, with smallpox being "prevalent and increasing in Cambridge", the regulation in question was "necessary in order to protect the public health and secure the public safety". The Court noted that Jacobson had offered proof that there were many in the medical community who believed that the smallpox vaccine would not stop the spread of the disease and, in fact, may cause other diseases of the body. However, the opinions offered by Jacobson were "more formidable by their number than by their inherent value" and "[w]hat everybody knows, ... [the] opposite theory accords with the common belief and is maintained by high medical authority." Therefore, it was left to the legislature, not the courts, to determine which of the "two modes was likely to be the most effective for the protection of the public against disease". No one could "confidently assert that the means prescribed by the State to that end has no real or substantial relation to the protection of the public health and the public safety".​

So we have a now 116 year old precedent for this, that was affirmed and reaffirmed at least three times in the 50+ years following this ruling. Now, in the SCOTUS case we also have:

The Court noted that Jacobson had offered proof that there were many in the medical community who believed that the smallpox vaccine would not stop the spread of the disease and, in fact, may cause other diseases of the body. However, the opinions offered by Jacobson were "more formidable by their number than by their inherent value" and "[w]hat everybody knows, ... [the] opposite theory accords with the common belief and is maintained by high medical authority."​

sound familiar? Back then not only did they argue “my body, my choice!” And got that slapped down, but also argued the slippery slope stance that the vaccines will do more harm than good, and got that slapped down as well. Oh, this also knocked out any individual or religious exemption to the vaccines. Finallyfrom that ruling:

Finally, the Court acknowledged that, in "extreme cases", for certain individuals "in a particular condition of ... health", the requirement of vaccination would be "cruel and inhuman[e]", in which case, courts would be empowered to interfere in order to "prevent wrong and oppression".​

here we have medical exemption, not religious, because if being forced to have it with a given medical exemption that could cause more harm than good, then 8A violation.

So. My choice? Defeated. My religion? Defeated. My individual rights are limitless? Defeated. Thanks to this single case, if it is required for the greater good of “We, the People”, you can be required and forced to be vaccinated.

BL.

 

[A MacBook lover]

It’s not really defeated as I and others are out in the nations Capitol unvaccinated, without a single denial of service.

Fun legal theory though. My choice prevails. I’ll enjoy seeing Shang-Chi tonight thinking about this

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Potential bad news for Pfizer vaccinated people.

I received both shots. Was then tested for immunological response weeks later, and had what was described as a 'solid immediate response'. Now? My response does not register. I have essentially NO COVERAGE for the COVID virus, Delta, or not.

I am wide open, and about to freak the hell out...

The moral of this is: Do not depend on coverage from the vaccines. I'm stunned. I will be trying another test as soon as I can get one. But if I 'ain't got it', after having such a good response, I can understand why so many that have been vaccinated, like me, are getting COVID and are dying.

Do not kid yourself! If I can go from 100% response to 0%, its happening to others. I'm crushed. Horrified.

If you have been fully vaccinated, get the immune test and see if it 'stuck'. Don't assume!!!

 

[jseymour]

Potential bad news for Pfizer vaccinated people.

I received both shots. Was then tested for immunological response weeks later, and had what was described as a 'solid immediate response'. Now? My response does not register.

Time lapses between second dose, "solid immediate response," and "response does not register," please?

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Do not kid yourself! If I can go from 100% response to 0%, its happening to others. I'm crushed. Horrified.

The problem with this is that many countries, including the US, UK and Israel have rushed the 2nd shot. It's been about 3 weeks for most, when other countries waited at least 6 weeks. From what I have read the ideal time for the 2nd shot would be 8-12 weeks after the 1st. There's a paper from a research team in Israel somewhere out there.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Time lapses between second dose, "solid immediate response," and "response does not register," please?

Last shot in early February, first antibody test in (early) April or early May.

 

[jseymour]

Last shot in early February, first antibody test in April or early May.

And the most recent test w/in the last day or so, I assume? So it immunized you for a whoppin' 4-8 months, at the most?

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

And the most recent test w/in the last day or so, I assume? So it immunized you for a whoppin' 4-8 months, at the most?

Apparently. And here I thought I could 'risk it' and go without a mask more often, but not anymore. With all the determined anti-mask and anti-vaccine zombies around here, I'm not going to be going out unless I absolutely have to. I'm devastated... Zero immunity, not even the long lasting antibodies. I got NOTHING...

 

[WitchDoktor]

Potential bad news for Pfizer vaccinated people.

I received both shots. Was then tested for immunological response weeks later, and had what was described as a 'solid immediate response'. Now? My response does not register. I have essentially NO COVERAGE for the COVID virus, Delta, or not.

I am wide open, and about to freak the hell out...

The moral of this is: Do not depend on coverage from the vaccines. I'm stunned. I will be trying another test as soon as I can get one. But if I 'ain't got it', after having such a good response, I can understand why so many that have been vaccinated, like me, are getting COVID and are dying.

Do not kid yourself! If I can go from 100% response to 0%, its happening to others. I'm crushed. Horrified.

If you have been fully vaccinated, get the immune test and see if it 'stuck'. Don't assume!!!

View attachment 1827154

I am so sorry. Please don't despair, because mental health is just as important as physical health.

I think I speak for most people when we say we are all here to support you. Maybe take a little time and try to center. If my mind starts overclocking I find it helpful to sit with closed eyes and let my breathing become my entire world.

Please don't be a stranger and think you have to deal with anything on your own.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I am so sorry. Please don't despair, because mental health is just as important as physical health.

I think I speak for most people when we say we are all here to support you. Maybe take a little time and try to center. If my mind starts overclocking I find it helpful to sit with closed eyes and let my breathing become my entire world.

Please don't be a stranger and think you have to deal with anything on your own.

I'm good. I guess I'm not surprised at this. I'm not going to start running with sharp objects (anymore than I usually do) because of this. I was always masking up, but tended to let my guard down around the docs I know, but now that so many are in hospital, and I got poop for immunity, I'm not risking it. Nope.

I'll try to get retested next week, JIC, and see what that shows. If this status is true, It's ironic that I could go on a cruise, and catch COVID, meaning that some of the hoopla about vaccinations is potentially overblown. Maybe they should start requiring antibody tests, and not specific COVID tests, OR test all vaccinated people for antibodies. THAT would be a hell of a lot more meaningful.

It was funny, the first test, they explained it as like a pregnancy test, only you use blood. I got the news, comically, 'You are VERY pregnant! Solid results! Congratulations! (Don't name it after me)'. Now, hmm... Not so pregnant.

Mask up! Be safe! Protect yourself!

Cheers!

 

[bradl]

It’s not really defeated as I and others are out in the nations Capitol unvaccinated, without a single denial of service.

Fun legal theory though. My choice prevails. I’ll enjoy seeing Shang-Chi tonight thinking about this

You miss the point. This isn't legal theory. This is a full blown ruling handed down by SCOTUS.

No one can claim “my body, my choice!” Because SCOTUS ruled against that. No one can claim religious exemption because SCOTUS ruled against that. No one can claim slippery slope because SCOTUS ruled against that.

In short, claiming “my rights” got shot down by SCOTUS 115 years ago. If anything, this is a prime example of needing to know where we’ve been to know where we’re going.

BL.

 

[A MacBook lover]

No one can claim “my body, my choice!” Because SCOTUS ruled against that. No one can claim religious exemption because SCOTUS ruled against that. No one can claim slippery slope because SCOTUS ruled against that.

In short, claiming “my rights” got shot down by SCOTUS 115 years ago. If anything, this is a prime example of needing to know where we’ve been to know where we’re going.

BL.

You missed the point. Shang-Chi was actually enjoyable. Just walked out from seeing it.

 

[I7guy]

You missed the point. Shang-Chi was actually enjoyable. Just walked out from seeing it.

If you wanted to get into a Broadway show (as in Manhattan) you couldn’t…was the point. That you were in a crowded venue is certainly choice, that you were let in was stupid choice by the owners.

 

[A MacBook lover]

If you wanted to get into a Broadway show (as in Manhattan) you couldn’t…was the point. That you were in a crowded venue is certainly choice, that you were let in was stupid choice by the owners.

Call AMC theaters and complain then.

 

[bradl]

You missed the point. Shang-Chi was actually enjoyable. Just walked out from seeing it.

Watching a movie is irrelevant to the conversation of "vaccine choice". That is the telling lack here.

BL.

 

[jseymour]

I'll try to get retested next week, JIC, and see what that shows. If this status is true, It's ironic that I could go on a cruise, and catch COVID, ...

I kind of regard cruise ships as floating disease incubators, regardless of SARS-Cov-2, so you would never catch me on one, anyway

... meaning that some of the hoopla about vaccinations is potentially overblown.

Kind of like some people have been claiming?

Here is my problem with all this, from start to finish: The various stories have changed so many times, with sometimes conflicting stories coming from the same people, in the same "news"cast, and there's been so much we clearly have not been told, that I essentially don't trust anything I hear, from anybody.

E.g.: Here's one you don't hear much about in the dominant "news," and it's not tin-foil-hat stuff: Israel was the first country in the world to fully vaccinate most of its citizens against COVID-19. Now it has one of the world's highest daily infection rates. [*]

So: The vaccines apparently have very limited effectiveness, Covid-19 has a near-100% survival rate if there is no co-morbidity, yet I'm being urged to get a vaccine that might make me sick or kill me and about which we have no clue as to potential long-term health effects?

Uhm... <ponders it...> I don't think so, Tim.

Maybe they should start requiring antibody tests, and not specific COVID tests, OR test all vaccinated people for antibodies. THAT would be a hell of a lot more meaningful.

How about testing all people for resistance to the disease, regardless of vaccination status, since immunity due to prior infection is allegedly ten times more effective than the vaccines?

Only, oddly, it seems they can't. Or won't. Last time I saw my old GP, just before he retired, I got the standard "Did you get a Covid-19 vaccination?" "No," I replied, "I am convinced neither of their safety nor their efficacy." Then I said "It would be nice if I could get a Covid-19 antibody test, because I'm fairly certain I've already had it." "They won't let me prescribe that," he replied.

Why not?

Mask up! Be safe! Protect yourself!

I was doing that, incl. thorough decontamination procedures, before it was even recommended. (You should have seen some of the looks I got.) Now I don't mask-up, as a general rule, anymore, unless the place I'm going demands it, but I endeavor to maintain a degree of social distancing and am very vigilant about decontamination. Essentially the same thing I do every flu season. [**]

If you don't mind my asking, @PinkyMacGodess, why are you so... almost panicked, about this? Do you have cause to believe yourself to be at increased risk of infection, increased risk of severe sickness if you become infected, or both? This is not an attack or criticism, but an honest question.

TBH: I'm concerned, cautious, and have been from the start. But not overly so, as, typically, I rarely catch whatever's going around and rarely get very sick from whatever it is when I do. Strong immune system? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[*] I'm not suggesting any of the vaccines increase susceptibility to SARS-Cov-2 or the Delta variant. My guess is Israelis got vaccinated, figured they were free to go back to living a Covid-19-free life - more-or-less abandoning all precautions, the immunity conferred by the vaccines wore off, and...

[**] I've also been on an increased Vitamin C and Vitamin D regimen since the SARS-Cov-2 outbreak. The Vit. C I do every flu season. The Vit. D I added for allegedly improving resistance to C-19.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

If you don't mind my asking, @PinkyMacGodess, why are you so... almost panicked, about this? Do you have cause to believe yourself to be at increased risk of infection, increased risk of severe sickness if you become infected, or both? This is not an attack or criticism, but an honest question.

All of the above. I am very active and do not want to give any of that up. I don't want to be yet another statistic on the list of long timer people fighting to have some kind of life after this. I also fully believe that with the way this country, and others have mishandled the response to this pandemic, this virus could really lead to a much more lethal strain, and it could be the end of humanity (not that there is much 'humanity' left in people these days to begin with).

I have a life. I LIKE my life. I don't want to have it severely curtailed because I get the latest rage variant and suffer for the rest of it. I have been lucky.

I fear for the doctors, nurses and techs that are coming down with it. Many seem to be getting hit pretty hard too. The degree of burnout for healthcare providers and front line people is epic. I'm sure it's hit the breaking point for many in the field. Suddenly being a medical provider just doesn't seem with the risk. I know a few that are fed up to 'here' with the craziness.

And yet, even though there are lots of idiots running around trying to save me from the 'tyranny of mask wearing, and vaccinations', I haven't had an encounter with one (yet). People just tend to look, and keep walking.

LEAVE ME OUT OF THIS MADNESS!

 

[I7guy]

[…]

So: The vaccines apparently have very limited effectiveness, Covid-19 has a near-100% survival rate if there is no co-morbidity, yet I'm being urged to get a vaccine that might make me sick or kill me and about which we have no clue as to potential long-term health effects?
[…]

But not a 100% back to normal life rate.