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Funny, people are complaining that it is a lot of money and they don't deserve it, well, it is a lot of money but there are ACTORS who make as much in their movies, are you saying they deserve the? Worse yet, Kim Kardashian is getting paid millions to be a dumb bimbo...

My beef with actors are not so much with actors, but with the studios. After all, its their fault, not the actors, that we're stuck with these... well, yeah, not so exciting movies. Not that i am a film school kind of guy, but i do enjoy watching films that dont have "box office record breaking potential" now and then :- )

In ways its pretty much the same though. They're not so much paid millions for their superior acting. Rather, they are probably more so perceived as safe bets, and thus worth paying for. Just like Apple (or anyone else), they could of course scout out a new talent, and pay fractions. But, that decision is way harder to sell to investors etc.

Oh well. Not my problem. If things goes as planned i wont chip one more cent of my own money towards Apples money chest. Not that i dont like their products, i just dont like their way of approaching the market.

P.S.

Sports are the worst. I congratulate NHL for the way they set up the wage regulations. Hopefully UEFA will fall in line and do the same.
 
Funny, people are complaining that it is a lot of money and they don't deserve it, well, it is a lot of money but there are ACTORS who make as much in their movies, are you saying they deserve the? Worse yet, Kim Kardashian is getting paid millions to be a dumb bimbo...

Hey, hey now... Do not disrespect Kim Kardashian's work ethic. I mean, she really took it in the butt to get where she is today.
 
Hey, hey now... Do not disrespect Kim Kardashian's work ethic. I mean, she really took it in the butt to get where she is today.

LMAO :D LMAO!!!! Best oneliner of the day!!!! :D Thanks bud !!!

+1,000,000!!!!!!
 
Long post, so i'll just say this. Your math is wrong. Inflation is irrelevant as quality of life in itself would be inflation adjusted, so to speak; i.e., to maintain the same QoL you'd need real - inflation adjusted - wage growth at >0.

Had to come back to explain my reasoning on this.

Quality of life is often inflation adjusted, but that can't be discerned from the information given, especially since I couldn't even find that quote or article on Kiplinger after multiple site searches with Google.

I'd want to see the full article because what I find suspect is equating productivity to quality of life. Generally productivity is equated to wages. And that seems to be the case here. It sounds more like they're assuming quality of life is the same thing as wages paid because they've set up a scenario where 400% productivity increases can be equaled out by working a quarter of the hours. There is no hint of inflation in there. And if it is just wages vs. productivity without including inflation, taxes, etc. that quote/article is essentially worthless.

As for the rest of the math, you're correct. But as you noted we were talking about maintaining a quality of life, not what the ratio of value to wage is. Which is why I added inflation, because the quote doesn't seem to include it.
 
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no one deserves that kind of money.....

occupy _________ ?

rewarding via stock is the most common way to compensate employees. you just seem mad because Apple stock is valued at over $400. performance of the top executives will determine how much those shares are valued. they perform poorly..they are all senior execs who directly influence the price and thus the share price would drop....

they are the top management of apple...the most valuable company in the world (i think)...they are retaining their employees. sorry you dont understand that
 
Uh.... you sound like one of those stupid "Occupy _____" protesters. Basically mad that rich people are rich and you are not. This is America. Anyone can work hard... either by getting highly educated, starting successful business or inventing a unique product that the world cannot live without.

The people in the top seats at Apple were not handed their jobs for the hell of it. They are there because they are the best at what they do. The proof is in Apple's success. Sure they earn their yearly salaries for their work. But they can quit at any time and take their talent elsewhere... something that Apple does not want. So these stock options are given to encourage them to stick with the company.
While I agree with the second half, surely you realize there is difference between "the top 1% are wealthy/millionaires and billionaires" and "the top 1% own almost half of all US wealth while millions live in poverty".

I guess it might be the same as distinguishing "these people are rich because they made something/created something" and "these people are rich but did not earn it"
 
occupy _________ ?

rewarding via stock is the most common way to compensate employees. you just seem mad because Apple stock is valued at over $400. performance of the top executives will determine how much those shares are valued. they perform poorly..they are all senior execs who directly influence the price and thus the share price would drop....

they are the top management of apple...the most valuable company in the world (i think)...they are retaining their employees. sorry you dont understand that

The important takeaway here is that these are not stock options, which are basically play compensation that causes a lot of opportunity for malfeasance, they are Restricted Stock Units and they carry with them some risk if the managers of the company don't actually look out for the long term prospects of Apple, which in turn employs 24,000 people and generates a lot of tax revenues that pay for a lot of social infrastructure in America.

I would rather they receive this type of incentive than be paid huge salaries and receive bonuses regardless of the quality of their performance. Now, imagine if we paid assembly line workers like that. Well, for one thing unions would never allow it... because some workers would be compensated very poorly and others very well. That's not how manufacturing works, though. If you make a widget that isn't up to spec, it doesn't get used... but you're being paid to perform a relatively repetitive task for so many hours in the day. You get paid more if you work more, but other than getting paid overtime, how can you measure the strategic impact of a single worker whose actions do not significantly affect the lives of 24,000 other employees and millions of customers?

Does the average worker spend 100 hours of their week, evenings, nights, weekends, on calls with various levels of management? I can see why people think that senior executives just sit around and bs or play golf.... but I've never worked for such a company, and if you do, you won't for long. The companies that stick around and remain healthy and capable of continuing to keep you and me employed are the ones where the senior executives are busting their butts seven days a week.

But setting aside the handful of cartoonish buffoons like Angelo Mozilo and Richard S. Fuld, both of whom, it should be noted, ran their respective companies into the toilet and engaged in horrendously risky behavior... and are now the laughing stock of corporate America... I know it doesn't sound "fair" that some people are compensated vastly more than others, but some people work vastly more and affect vastly more and own a much larger piece of risk than the average worker.

Even in my job, there are decisions and recommendations I make that can affect entire programs, and scores of employees, and I don't know a lot of people who want that responsibility on their head... you can't put a gun to everyone's head and MAKE them want that. I'm not even an executive, and I don't get paid huge sums of money. I get RSU's here and there, but I'm also not nearly as involved or as busy or as devoid of a life as the people I report up to.... I'm ok with that.
 
The important takeaway here is that these are not stock options, which are basically play compensation that causes a lot of opportunity for malfeasance, they are Restricted Stock Units and they carry with them some risk if the managers of the company don't actually look out for the long term prospects of Apple, which in turn employs 24,000 people and generates a lot of tax revenues that pay for a lot of social infrastructure in America.

I would rather they receive this type of incentive than be paid huge salaries and receive bonuses regardless of the quality of their performance. Now, imagine if we paid assembly line workers like that. Well, for one thing unions would never allow it... because some workers would be compensated very poorly and others very well. That's not how manufacturing works, though. If you make a widget that isn't up to spec, it doesn't get used... but you're being paid to perform a relatively repetitive task for so many hours in the day. You get paid more if you work more, but other than getting paid overtime, how can you measure the strategic impact of a single worker whose actions do not significantly affect the lives of 24,000 other employees and millions of customers?

Does the average worker spend 100 hours of their week, evenings, nights, weekends, on calls with various levels of management? I can see why people think that senior executives just sit around and bs or play golf.... but I've never worked for such a company, and if you do, you won't for long. The companies that stick around and remain healthy and capable of continuing to keep you and me employed are the ones where the senior executives are busting their butts seven days a week.

But setting aside the handful of cartoonish buffoons like Angelo Mozilo and Richard S. Fuld, both of whom, it should be noted, ran their respective companies into the toilet and engaged in horrendously risky behavior... and are now the laughing stock of corporate America... I know it doesn't sound "fair" that some people are compensated vastly more than others, but some people work vastly more and affect vastly more and own a much larger piece of risk than the average worker.

Even in my job, there are decisions and recommendations I make that can affect entire programs, and scores of employees, and I don't know a lot of people who want that responsibility on their head... you can't put a gun to everyone's head and MAKE them want that. I'm not even an executive, and I don't get paid huge sums of money. I get RSU's here and there, but I'm also not nearly as involved or as busy or as devoid of a life as the people I report up to.... I'm ok with that.

Thing is, very few argue that high ups dont have a hard job, long hours, constant stress etc. and thus should earn more than the avg. worker. What people object to are execs going from earning 10 times to 10000 times the avg. worker in quite short time. When will enough be enough? That is what people seem to be asking. And good for them. If they start realizing their worth they will be better off too.
 
no one deserves that kind of money.....

The "kind of money" I, them, or any other person in this country "EARNS" is none is your business. That's between me and the person I am working for.
 
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Having written that, although I'm not opposed to the Apple Board of Directors granting large stock options and/or bonuses to their upper echelon of executives in exchange for four or five years of guaranteed service, it seems unwise to simply reward them for keeping their seats warm regardless of how well the company performs over the next several years. How much they receive should be reflective of how much revenue the company earns over that period. Don't pay people before and until they perform!


That's kind of the deal with stock options. They have to keep revenue and growth up to keep the stock price up, or watch their options lose value. So, in granting the options, they are essentially doing what you wish.
 
How many options for the $0.80 / hour chinese labor putting this stuff together?

I hate it when people say stupid things. The labor that puts "this stuff together" are not Apple employees and are easily replaceable. If the company that they work for start pricing themselves to high, Apple will simply move to another vendor.

They should be happy with their $0.80 an hour job.
 
The "kind of money" I, them, or any other person in this country "EARNS" is none is your business. That's between me and the person I am working for.

Note, there is a VAST difference between someone who EARNS a lot of money and someone who GETS a lot of money.

Hardly anyone has any problem with someone who EARNS a lot of money.
It's those who just GET a lot of money, are the ones that people, including myself look down upon as human leeches.
 
Note, there is a VAST difference between someone who EARNS a lot of money and someone who GETS a lot of money.

Hardly anyone has any problem with someone who EARNS a lot of money.
It's those who just GET a lot of money, are the ones that people, including myself look down upon as human leeches.

so you are calling the Apple exec's human leeches?
 
Why are people implying there's a parallel between this and the Occupy movement? Corporations and countries operate in very different ways.

And maybe they didn't give Jonathan Ive a bonus because he's already very loyal to the company.

Hey, I have no complaints. They have a gay CEO, and good for them.

I had no idea he was gay until now. Cool.
 
Shareholders should demand dividends.

I am a shareholder and right now don't care about dividends. Apple is a growth stock, maybe someday they will pay dividends again. I would rather the growth continue on the current pace.

:apple:
 
Note, there is a VAST difference between someone who EARNS a lot of money and someone who GETS a lot of money.

Hardly anyone has any problem with someone who EARNS a lot of money.
It's those who just GET a lot of money, are the ones that people, including myself look down upon as human leeches.

A lot of people, including me, tend to look down on jealous people who are preoccupied at what other people have, instead of working towards personal success.
 
Bit sickening.

Excessive? Yes, but well deserved. Apple has been on fire the past few years and with the way things are structured today,

Oh yes, totally deserved. I know people that work more than 75 hours a week (well over 100, in some cases) just to feed their kids and pay the bills... but these guys working 30ish at white collar jobs are getting WELL-deserved millions. :rolleyes:
 
The people who say that this is too much money for one person, or too much money for Apple, or Apple should do something else with this money, etc.... seem to believe that Apple exists in a bubble without any competition

There is an amount of money that an Apple executive is worth. And that number is not based on any absolute amount of money that you personally feel is too much.

arn

arn, you are missing the point. Most of us are not suggesting that this was an unexpected or ill-advised move on Apple's part. This is how our system works. Apple alone cannot be expected to operate differently than all the other corporations. So your argument is really moot. It is readily acknowledged that this is the expected and desired way of doing business in corporate America today. My response to that is - the PEOPLE should change this system. (btw, I don't expect that to really happen for another 50-100 years or so).

This belies a fundamental lack of understanding of how businesses work and what makes them successful. You think there is some kind of fold scale to balance out the factory worker versus the CEO.

People who do their jobs really well get rewarded for it.

Your comment exemplifies a fundamental lack of understanding of my argument. In no way did I say that every worker contributes the same to the success of the company or that people who do a good job shouldn't be compensated commensurately. The issue is the growing size of that gap between the average workers and the executives. From the Instutute for Policy Studies:

"Among the nation's top firms, the S&P 500, CEO pay last year averaged $10,762,304, up 27.8 percent over 2009. Average worker pay in 2010? That finished at $33,121, up just 3.3 percent over the year before."

As things get worse, it's sad to see the poor/middle class direct their anger towards the rich. I'm middle class but I have no problems with a CEO being paid overly large amounts of money *if* they are doing a good job.

They have conditioned you (and many others) to think this way. Based upon what you were taught in school, what you read in the "news"paper, and what you see on TV, this is exactly what you should think.

We need to look at the root cause for the perceived problems. Costs are going up because unions and law suits plus a lot more. We're part of the problem (e.g. lawyers and the 99%).

Again, this is the "party line" of the rich. Lawsuits! That's the problem! WHY would corporations want you to think that? It's because the courts have traditionally been the ONE place where the "common man" could get justice when he has been harmed by the wealthy and powerful (insurance companies, financial institutions, manufacturers of defective products, etc). Corporations MUST stop this ability of people to make them pay for their misdeeds. So they convince the gullible that "excessive" jury verdicts are harming the average American - that they cause their insurance rates to go up and products to cost more. In reality, when an Exxon or BP is sued for the egregious destruction of the environment, it only cuts into their PROFITS. Thus we get legislation restricting jury verdicts, and things like the Oil Pollution Act that caps liability for damages from an offshore spill at $75 million per incident.

Those who are complaining the loudest are probably those who are too lazy to work hard or too spoiled to appreciate what they have. I work hard and make little but I get a lot of satisfaction from my efforts and know I earned them...they weren't handed out to me.

Attacking the person instead of the argument is referred to as argumentum ad hominem, and is a logical fallacy.

Go live in a socialist country. You've no concept of capitalism at all.

I think we all see how capitalism works in our culture. It concentrates wealth at the top.

If you think there is a great "conspiracy" to overspend on this part of a company's budget, one that affects the bottom-line profitability so directly, you are making quite a demonizing leap of faith in the existence of a Boogeyman (or cadre of "boogeymen").

Bottom-line profitability? You DO understand that the distribution of those profits to the rich IS the goal, right? After all the overhead, R&D, marketing, etc, the PROFIT is what's left and what gets paid out to execs. So NO, giving obscene amounts of money to execs does not "affect bottom-line profitability"......it IS THE WHOLE POINT.

No conspiracy among corporate boards to keep the exec salaries high. They'd love to pay them less if they could get away with it. But in a competitive marketplace it cannot be done.
The lucky 1% are not conspiring to inflate one another's salaries. If they could, boards would pay less for executive salaries.

Sorry, but it's a fact that Boards are made up of the ultra rich - the "boys club", the 1%....these people are all part of the same eschelon of society. They run in the same circles. They eat the same caviar and drink $10,000 bottles of wine together. They ALL benefit from a system that pays exorbitant sums of money to the top tiers of corporate society. After all, you correctly point out that Apple has to pay bonuses commensurate with the marketplace. This is kind of the whole point. These people make the rules. The "market" for CEOs pays hundreds of millions because they decided it should

Like many of the protesters, you probably have an incredibly high standard of living, on any historical or geographical comparison (your being on this forum is good evidence of that) and you act like you have to go to work every day and get whipped on the assembly line.

No. I freely admitted that I am financially comfortable. Can you not conceive that someone might speak out on behalf of all human beings and not just be concerned with himself?
 
It's always interesting to read these posts. I tend to understand the point of views of both sides. So I'll leave it at that before being attacked by both sides... :-D

As a company, Apple can do what they want, if they feel these guys deserve that, then they know more that us, forum commenters. They will be judged by the market. And I doubt that the market will be harsh.

Is it excessive? Probably a "bit", IMHO. But if they leave before the end or don't perform well, well it will be less of a bonus. So it's in their own interest to make it worthwhile. :)

I guess I didn't leave it at that... :-D
 
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