Apple Being Sued for 'Purposefully Slowing Down Older iPhone Models' [Updated]

[mayhemburzum]

Based on your experience, can someone walk in and ask for a battery replacement? Or does apple first need to test the battery

I've left about 2 years ago, but at the time the battery replacement procedure was not walk in get served. Your phone needed fail diagnostics, which was exactly as described on this thread: "80% or cycle count below X".
[doublepost=1514363602][/doublepost]

Eh?

Lying because you are ordered to lie is still lying?

Or am i missing something?

The way you say it implies that people there lie to you because they want. It's how your sentence is formed. Apologies if that is not the case.

 

[aliensporebomb]

So, basically, Apple is facing lawsuits over the fact that they came up with a stopgap measure for the fact that battery technology has always lagged behind and not kept pace with users desires. Interesting.

People gripe that a bigger or better battery should have been implemented. I've seen many people saying they'd accept a thicker phone if they could get a larger more robust battery in the phones.

Thinking today It's probably they should have bundled this with their low power mode as a feature you can toggle.

What would you rather have? Slower but the ability to make a critical phone call in an emergency or full power but the possibility of your phone going dead abruptly?

On Windows computers where batteries are weak you get a notification that you should probably have your battery replaced. It's possible Apple could have implemented something like this but that's not Apple-like.

And it sure seems that people with marginal batteries with still reasonable performance were experiencing throttling.

Given that corporate america has more or less set the buy/use/replace cycle for computers, phones and tablets as 2-3 years, the fact that a battery is producing less than desired voltage 2+ years is unsurprising.

What surprises me more is people are holding onto phones 5 versions behind expecting "as new" performance.

 

[DevNull0]

Cook is a genius you are selling very short. He’s turned Apple into 3X the company value as under Jobs.

Sculley boosted the company profit and value immensely after Jobs was ousted the first time. Exactly the same way Timmy is doing it. It will end the same way except there won't be a Jobs to save Apple this time. Timmy will retire with $1 billion just as Apple comes crashing down and claim to be the greatest CEO ever.

 

[mayhemburzum]

I see this issue being far more complex than Apple throttling faulty batteries. Based on what I've read on the forum we have this:

• Batteries are being throttled before they reach the 80% / 500 cycle replacement benchmark from Apple;
• Apple does not allow it's users to replace a seemingly unfit battery with a brand new one, even at the expense of the end-user, because those benchmarks are not met;
• Throttling was introduced to prevent random shutdowns;
• Random shutdowns usually occur due to a power spike;

What the above tells me is that a number of batteries / device models have got the wrong capacity, causing them to only work as expected when battery capacity is close to optimal. This reveals that Apple cut corners when building said batteries and that they are not, in any way, shape or form, adapted to the devices they power. If the benchmark for battery quality and degradation is 80% / 500 cycles all devices should be working as expected (with fewer battery hours nonetheless) and not throttled to prevent random shutdowns. Since they are not, it's pretty clear that these devices are operating with an unfit power unit that does not operate to what is expected and, therefore, a free repair is due.

This is my personal opinion based on European Consumer Laws, which is what I understand the most.

On a sidenote, it's laughable that people mention that Apple's battery tech is the same as other companies when iPhone batteries offer 500 cycles as opposed to 1000 on most Android Flagships and Midrange phones.

 

[Phonephreak]

the later model iPhones use way more power than earlier phones.

Then Apple needs to use a battery that can power its phones properly.
[doublepost=1514369685][/doublepost]

Elon Musk isn’t on the same planet as Jobs or even Cook. Bezos can perhaps be compared with Cook and Jobs...but Musk is a salesman for a company that isn’t profitable and will have a hard time ever being profitable.

Cook is a genius you are selling very short. He’s turned Apple into 3X the company value as under Jobs.

Does anyone really think Tesla is worth more than BMW? Electric car tech isn’t proprietary. Musk thinks he’s god and his biggest weakness is he doesn’t think he has any weaknesses.

So he’s kinda arrogant. Kinda like you come off as

 

[H2SO4]

So, basically, Apple is facing lawsuits over the fact that they came up with a stopgap measure for the fact that battery technology has always lagged behind and not kept pace with users desires. Interesting.

People gripe that a bigger or better battery should have been implemented. I've seen many people saying they'd accept a thicker phone if they could get a larger more robust battery in the phones.

Thinking today It's probably they should have bundled this with their low power mode as a feature you can toggle.

What would you rather have? Slower but the ability to make a critical phone call in an emergency or full power but the possibility of your phone going dead abruptly?

On Windows computers where batteries are weak you get a notification that you should probably have your battery replaced. It's possible Apple could have implemented something like this but that's not Apple-like.

And it sure seems that people with marginal batteries with still reasonable performance were experiencing throttling.

Given that corporate america has more or less set the buy/use/replace cycle for computers, phones and tablets as 2-3 years, the fact that a battery is producing less than desired voltage 2+ years is unsurprising.

What surprises me more is people are holding onto phones 5 versions behind expecting "as new" performance.

Their software allows them to mask the condition of a bad battery if and when they see fit.

 

[DevNull0]

So, basically, Apple is facing lawsuits over the fact that they came up with a stopgap measure for the fact that battery technology has always lagged behind and not kept pace with users desires. Interesting.

No, Apple is being sued for releasing a software update that secretly throttles the CPU speed of the previous generation phone.

 

[Fugitivo8]

No, Apple is being sued for releasing a software update that secretly throttles the CPU speed of the previous generation phone.

This... this is exactly it...
You can sugarcoat all you want, you can defend that they did what they did for the reasons they claim. But that will not change the fact of the above.

You sir deserve a cookie!

 

[Puddled]

Has the specific criteria IOS uses to tell the phone to throttle the CPU been revealed yet?

Is this criteria more or less onerous than the one used by Apple for warranty?

Because if the throttling kicks in before Apple would agree to a battery warranty replacement, we are in very interesting waters. .

 

[Fugitivo8]

Has the specific criteria IOS uses to tell the phone to throttle the CPU been revealed yet?

Is this criteria more or less onerous than the one used by Apple for warranty?

Because if the throttling kicks in before Apple would agree to a battery warranty replacement, we are in very interesting waters. .

I don't know exactly because the iPhone 6 I had throttled the battery was with less than 500 cycles and more than 80% of battery life on the App Battery Life. So I don't know if the app has true data or not, but if it does, yeah the throttle kicks in before you are eligible to change the battery by Apple

 

[MH01]

I've left about 2 years ago, but at the time the battery replacement procedure was not walk in get served. Your phone needed fail diagnostics, which was exactly as described on this thread: "80% or cycle count below X".

If that's the case, this makes this practice really bad. I was under the impression you could just hand over £79 and go from there. If Apple has to approve ....you to pay £79, they are taking the piss with his throttling.

I've had ***** battery issues , and never has a battery been under 80%, the replacement unit, suddenly had much better battery and ran faster . At least the genius who served me was awesome , and understood the frustration even though all the diagnostics said my phone was fine .

 

[Radon87000]

The throttling kicks in after the default warranty expires. It's obvious Apple's getting more and more confident with planned obsolescence.

 

[MH01]

So, basically, Apple is facing lawsuits over the fact that they came up with a stopgap measure for the fact that battery technology has always lagged behind and not kept pace with users desires. Interesting.

People gripe that a bigger or better battery should have been implemented. I've seen many people saying they'd accept a thicker phone if they could get a larger more robust battery in the phones.

Thinking today It's probably they should have bundled this with their low power mode as a feature you can toggle.

What would you rather have? Slower but the ability to make a critical phone call in an emergency or full power but the possibility of your phone going dead abruptly?

On Windows computers where batteries are weak you get a notification that you should probably have your battery replaced. It's possible Apple could have implemented something like this but that's not Apple-like.

And it sure seems that people with marginal batteries with still reasonable performance were experiencing throttling.

Given that corporate america has more or less set the buy/use/replace cycle for computers, phones and tablets as 2-3 years, the fact that a battery is producing less than desired voltage 2+ years is unsurprising.

What surprises me more is people are holding onto phones 5 versions behind expecting "as new" performance.

Hmmm I expect my 2009 MacBook Pro 17, to still run at the same speed as it did in 2009. Would you not ? Yeah the battery is 1/2 ....but the speed is the same. I can replace the battery

Why would anyone accept a phone, being a computer , to do otherwise ?
[doublepost=1514372916][/doublepost]

The throttling kicks in after the default warranty expires. It's obvious Apple's getting more and more confident with planned obsolescence.

It also helps with them meeting consumer laws in Europe and other countries, as thier devices pass all the tests.... no issues to see, visit a genius and be told to restore ..... or upgrade , cause the phone is fine...
[doublepost=1514373435][/doublepost]https://seekingalpha.com/article/4133931-apple-wanted-know-iphone-throttling-scandal

This is interesting article that covers many questions .

Geez I did not realise that throttling can make a device 1-2 generations slower .....

Worth a read anyway .

 

[whirldy]

This was s good talk!!!

iPhone battery life vs. performance roundtable

Apple is sacrificing performance on old, cold iPhone batteries to prevent unexpected shutdowns. The company has been doing it for almost a year but this week it’s making headlines. Geekbench’s John Poole, analyst Ben Bajarin, former analyst Carl Howe, and electrical engineer and Android editor Jerry Hildenbrand discuss what’s happening, why, and what it all means.

http://vector.libsyn.com/041-iphone-battery-life-vs-performance-roundtable

 

[hface119]

You have planned and unplanned obsolescence back to front

Unplanned is when time degrades something regardless of input.

Planned is when degradation happens because of your input.

Thanks for the definition, I think it's pretty obvious what both of the terms mean. "Unplanned" is irrelevant, every piece of technology experiences this and always has. It would be PLANNED if the latest OS was not able to be installed on older devices at all; if each OS was only compatible with the latest device, that's literally planning to make the previous generation obsolete. Releasing an optimized OS specific to each older device and tailored so that it runs as optimally as possible is not making something obsolete, it's the opposite - extending its life.

What is still being overlooked is that updating to the latest OS is not a mandatory activity. Apple could do better to explain what happens when you do update relative to this scenario, and for all I know it is already in the T's and C's you "agree" to, but remaining on the OS the phone was shipped with would result only in the "unplanned" obsolescence as a result of dying tech. I use the word "dying" to describe anything getting older.

I don't see any of these court cases going anywhere. The lasting effect will be the PR.
[doublepost=1514377330][/doublepost]

Hmmm I expect my 2009 MacBook Pro 17, to still run at the same speed as it did in 2009. Would you not ? Yeah the battery is 1/2 ....but the speed is the same. I can replace the battery

Why would anyone accept a phone, being a computer , to do otherwise ?

That makes 0 sense. What computer runs the same nearly ten years later? If you're still running the OS it came with, then yes. New OS' have new requirements. While a computer may be able to handle it, it won't necessarily run as well as a brand new machine designed and optimized for that new software. I can't believe this conversation is happening. *facepalm*

 

[Fugitivo8]

Thanks for the definition, I think it's pretty obvious what both of the terms mean. "Unplanned" is irrelevant, every piece of technology experiences this and always has. It would be PLANNED if the latest OS was not able to be installed on older devices at all; if each OS was only compatible with the latest device, that's literally planning to make the previous generation obsolete. Releasing an optimized OS specific to each older device and tailored so that it runs as optimally as possible is not making something obsolete, it's the opposite - extending its life.

What is still being overlooked is that updating to the latest OS is not a mandatory activity. Apple could do better to explain what happens when you do update relative to this scenario, and for all I know it is already in the T's and C's you "agree" to, but remaining on the OS the phone was shipped with would result only in the "unplanned" obsolescence as a result of dying tech. I use the word "dying" to describe anything getting older.

I don't see any of these court cases going anywhere. The lasting effect will be the PR.
[doublepost=1514377330][/doublepost]

That makes 0 sense. What computer runs the same nearly ten years later? If you're still running the OS it came with, then yes. New OS' have new requirements. While a computer may be able to handle it, it won't necessarily run as well as a brand new machine designed and optimized for that new software. I can't believe this conversation is happening. *facepalm*

You know that in some parts of the world even if you press the Agree on the T's and C's... it means nothing if the Consumer Law is broken right? So for example in EU, Apple can say anything they want that the users agreed upon the T's and C's but that doesn't mean the courts will be in Apple's favor.
And another thing, we are not talking about 10 year old devices here, were talking about last year devices. For example

 

[MH01]

That makes 0 sense. What computer runs the same nearly ten years later? If you're still running the OS it came with, then yes. New OS' have new requirements. While a computer may be able to handle it, it won't necessarily run as well as a brand new machine designed and optimized for that new software. I can't believe this conversation is happening. *facepalm*

Missing the point . The cpu / gpu , still run at the same speed as they did in 2009 - that is my expectation . Why should they not ? Sure even at 100% performance it struggles with the newest os.... but still runs at the same speed, that is the issue

 

[sentential]

(Telco employee here who deals with UPS/Electrical issues frequently)
Everyone is reading way too much into this. What we have here is a classic case of voltage sag:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_sag

What is most likely happening is the power delivery system either the battery or the the corresponding coils/fets are insufficient to maintain 100% load from the CPU, full stop. This is a hardware issue that existed from day one and is unfixable. The issue with the batteries degrading is a red herring and is only a symptom of the true problem. Apple knew this was an issue and could not fix it and rather than risk a thermal runaway from the battery aka Galaxy Note 7 they put this "patch" in place instead of doing a full out recall. (which is what should have happened).

When we configure our power plants we always use N+1 or have at least double what is required to run our plant. Apple clearly does not and dangerously overextended their power delivery. Whether it is intentional or not from the design originally remains to be seen.

They are ****ed and should be hit with the highest penalty possible up to and including replacing everyone's handsets with a different one. This is not some "oh golly gee" but an intentional "they won't notice because they're stupid" sort of thing.

 

[I7guy]

The throttling kicks in after the default warranty expires. It's obvious Apple's getting more and more confident with planned obsolescence.

They got you to upgrade. One who is in top of all of apples nefarious tricks. /s

 

[Act3]

(Telco employee here who deals with UPS/Electrical issues frequently)
Everyone is reading way too much into this. What we have here is a classic case of voltage sag:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_sag

What is most likely happening is the power delivery system either the battery or the the corresponding coils/fets are insufficient to maintain 100% load from the CPU, full stop. This is a hardware issue that existed from day one and is unfixable. The issue with the batteries degrading is a red herring and is only a symptom of the true problem. Apple knew this was an issue and could not fix it and rather than risk a thermal runaway from the battery aka Galaxy Note 7 they put this "patch" in place instead of doing a full out recall. (which is what should have happened).

When we configure our power plants we always use N+1 or have at least double what is required to run our plant. Apple clearly does not and dangerously overextended their power delivery. Whether it is intentional or not from the design originally remains to be seen.

They are ****ed and should be hit with the highest penalty possible up to and including replacing everyone's handsets with a different one. This is not some "oh golly gee" but an intentional "they won't notice because they're stupid" sort of thing.

Quite possibly a design issue. It’ll be interesting if the iPhone 8 and above have this issue. I am pretty certain the issue with 6s shutting down issue that resulted in battery replacement program was identified after iPhone 7 was released. So it is possible that power design may have been carried over to the 7 models. Hence why throttling was introduced to the iPhone 7 also.

 

[MacHiavelli]

Ties in with Apple dumping Qualcomm (which has numerous battery patents that Apple clearly doesn't value).

 

[Rocketman]

Not necessarily an "older" product. You can go online now and buy a 6S or a 7 that will get throttled with brand new batteries as soon as iOS updates are done - boom, on brand new phones.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4134069-apple-slandered-chemistry-fix

 

[sentential]

Quite possibly a design issue. It’ll be interesting if the iPhone 8 and above have this issue. I am pretty certain the issue with 6s shutting down issue that resulted in battery replacement program was identified after iPhone 7 was released. So it is possible that power design may have been carried over to the 7 models. Hence why throttling was introduced to the iPhone 7 also.

Correct, I suspect this is a design issue across multiple phones and is likely related to the 64bit redesign forward and wouldn't suprise me if this issue also exists in the 5S. You simply cannot cram a laptop grade SOC into such a tiny phone without there being consequences for this. Notice how no one has reported any ipad issues? Coincidence? I think not.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4134069-apple-slandered-chemistry-fix

This is just factually wrong, the issue is not the battery, the issue is power delivery which in turn causes premature battery failure. In a UPS environment (which this is) the phone always pulls power from the battery itself and is never pulls power from an unfiltered source (ie direct current from the outlet). What is going on is some kind of general protection fault, originally caused by the phone pulling too much power from too few cells. If left unchecked that would lead to a thermal runaway, overheating the battery, swelling it and causing a fire. This is exactly what happened with the Note 7 and some iPhone 8s. Again, emphasis: **TOO MUCH CURRENT FROM TOO FEW CELLS**

People are of the mistaken belief that their iPhone *EVER* worked properly or is even *CAPABLE* of working properly. I guarantee you everyone's phone is affected by this in some shape or fashion but it is more noticeable based on climate, use, type of charger, how clean the power you have at your house etc. Worst case scenario would be a very heavy thick case with a plastic screen protector used in a hot environment for extensive periods of time at peak load. ie Gaming outside in the Arizona summer heat in an otterbox. If this is you I am almost positive you're the ones complaining about throttling the most.

What normally happens in this kind of situation is that the voltage sag is observed and to prevent hardware failure from the power source going out of phase, the source of the load aka the phone is cut off to prevent damage. This is what was causing phones to unexpectedly turn off. Apple's solution was to cap power draw to the maximum that the battery plant could support which in the case of phones with compromised batteries made them throttle, in some cases excessively.

This is 100% Apple's fault and rather than coming clean about it they covered it up. Period. They deserve to be sued for this. The only way they could come out of this looking semi-clean is if they throw their battery supplier under the bus and replace everyone's batteries at cost to a higher cell count battery. (which they should have done the first time)

 

[Act3]

Correct, I suspect this is a design issue across multiple phones and is likely related to the 64bit redesign forward and wouldn't suprise me if this issue also exists in the 5S. You simply cannot cram a laptop grade SOC into such a tiny phone without there being consequences for this. Notice how no one has reported any ipad issues? Coincidence? I think not.



This is just factually wrong, the issue is not the battery, the issue is power delivery which in turn causes premature battery failure. In a UPS environment (which this is) the phone always pulls power from the battery itself and is never pulls power from an unfiltered source (ie direct current from the outlet). What is going on is some kind of general protection fault that originally caused by the phone pulling too much power from too few cells. If left unchecked that would lead to a thermal runaway, overheating the battery, swelling it and causing a fire. This is exactly what happened with the Note 7 and some iPhone 8s.

What normally happens in this kind of situation is that the voltage sag is observed and to prevent hardware failure from the power source going out of phase, the source of the load aka the phone is cut off to prevent damage. This is what was causing phones to unexpectedly turn off. Apple's solution was to cap power draw to the maximum that the battery plant could support which in the case of phones with compromised batteries made them throttle, in some cases excessively.

This is 100% Apple's fault and rather than coming clean about it they covered it up. Period.

I have an air 2 which was bought when they were released and used daily. Battery is over three years old and the benchmarks and cpudasherx show no throttling.

 

[sentential]

I have an air 2 which was bought when they were released and used daily. Battery is over three years old and the benchmarks and cpudasherx show no throttling.

Exactly! This is the problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_runaway

Again, too much power from too few cells = heat, swelling, and failure. iPads by their size use higher cell count and cell capacity battery than the iPhone and have an entirely different power delivery mechanism