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”This Facebook-financed survey from December 2020 was narrowly tailored to give the false impression that there's little competition on the App Store. In truth, third-party apps compete with Apple's apps across every category and enjoy large scale success.”

There may well be competition in the App Store, but there’s no alternative phone app in the App Store, the App Store itself has no competition, and there’s also no alternative springboard/launcher. There may be some competition on the iPhone, but many aspects of the phone are indeed off limits to any competition at all.

That being said, Apple develops good Apps. I like Safari, Apple Mail, FaceTime, messages, and so forth.
Are you seriously suggesting there needs to be competition for the Phone App or the Springboard? Seriously? What’s next? Ford has to let other companies provide steering wheels as options for the cars customers buy from them? WalMart has to start letting Target set up checkout machines at its front area? I’ve heard some questionable takes on what Apple should have to do regarding the iPhone but congratulations, you’ve topped the list.
 
Im with Facebook ever since Apple applied over exaggerated privacy politics They totally ruin small business growth with this move. Peoples ID where not shared, instead its just a token inside a bucket with different interests. Everybody is safe

Wont explain in detail how it works.

Apple says they want users to "choose", well...., lets choose everything then. Where to buy the Apps and what apps we want in our phones. Tired of Apple trying to make us believe they are the good guys, all they do is based in their business interests.
 
A simple search came up with one - Beeper. A look at the web site lists current support for 15 messaging protocols and services with six more coming. And it is open source so you can extend your own. It lists SMS, but that may only be on Android - its not clear and I have no desire to try out the app to see.
And an even simpler search shows how much of a hack this app is.

From Macrumors:

“The app is "using some trickery" to achieve this, with the website's FAQ revealing that an always-online Mac running the Beeper app is needed to use as a bridge. Alternately, Beeper will ship a "Jailbroken iPhone with the Beeper app installed which bridges to iMessage" to users unable to use a Mac.”
 
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I think there’s a difference between the phone and photos app and Apple turning the generic music player app into Apple Music, which is a subscription service. Yes I know you can still use the app without subscribing to Apple Music but one could argue it should be a separate app that isn’t pre-installed but rather something you have to seek out in the App Store.
 
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Would you be apposed to something similar to what Microsoft had to do with IE? Instead of pre-installing the default IE, you got a setup option screen that gave you choice. IE was still highlighted as "Microsofts own". But you could easily click to chose any one of the other "approved" browsers. Which would than install for you and set as default.

after that, you never have to think about it again.


Somehow though, since then, the world seems to have gotten in bed with antitrust behaviour and allowed mega corporations a lot of leeway to avoid a lot of regulations around anti competitive behaviour.

Every single one of these companies would be afoul of antitrust laws if they were being enforced today like they were 20 years ago.
1. The forced browser dialogue only occurred in the EU and only for 5 years. Microsoft wasn’t required to do it elsewhere. And even without it, Chrome became more popular in most of the world anyway. The browser choice dialogue was wholly unnecessary.

2. Which anti-trust laws SPECIFICALLY have these companies broken or that should have been enforced that weren’t? If that were the case, why are politicians now proposing new laws instead of highlighting which ones were broken? Is it because the behavior we are seeing now from Facebook et. al. wasn’t actually covered by those laws because the behavior they engaged in didn’t even exist yet? Is it because even today’s politicians are woefully out of touch when it comes to technology and most of them have little to no understanding of it NOW let alone decades ago when these laws were written?!?
 
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lol you don't see how it's in any shape the same?

that's pretty one sided opinion there.

"it's ok when Apple does it, BUT NOT MICROSOFT CAUSE THEY"RE EVIL@"

it's not ok that anyone fo these companies is allowed to behave in this way. Apple's apps are very much "integrated" into ios the same way that IE was integrated into Windows. They do not have to be, and are being done so with verticle integration monetization in mind.

it's literally no different than what Microsoft was doing in the 90's
Let's see.

At the time browsers for a for sale product, including IE. Microsoft bundled IE into its OS for free in a bid to undercut all competing browsers.

If you tried to remove IE you broke File Explorer - you know basically the Windows UI.

Microsoft actively went after the competing browsers by setting license agreements with OEM that no one could preinstall a competing browser or they los the right to license Windows AT ALL (among other things)

A whole lot more if you actually read the complaint.

How is one company preinstalling a few commonly accepted stock apps (Apple) anywhere close to the antics Microsoft pulled?

This has nothing to do with Apple good | Microsoft evil. At the present time all my phones are Apple and will likely stay that way. As for non-mobile devices I am a bit more flexible. I have used most every OS out there over my lifetime - DEC, VAX, Multics, ADABAS, IBM mainframes, Mac, Windows, Linux. Hell, I still have an OS/2 Warp machine running in a VM just for nostalgia reasons.

If you view a little pushback on your over-simplified argument as a simple Apple vs Microsoft fan alignment I have to wonder which of us has the predetermined viewpoint.
 
I don't know enough about antitrust law and anti-competitive practices to really voice an opinion from that perspective - mine is more of a simpleton's outlook. Apple made the phone and software, it is what it is and I don't understand the issue if their pre-installed apps are the most popular, especially when you can use a multitude of other apps or the web if you like. Even if you couldn't, its their product.

I'm not really disagreeing with you as I'm not familiar with the laws. Just seems to me a way to strong-arm Apple into allowing alternate App stores or selection screens with apps listed seems like a way to placate those who want to piggy-back off of Apple's success. And even then, who gets to decide what apps you can choose from? There's a billion browsers out there, there's a multitude of email clients.

I think the issue and what elevates it from being simple "convenience of preinstallation" to "we're actually using this to destroy the competition" is how Apple is also monetizing these apps at the cost of the third party.

thing is, if you take the holistic view of the App Store business practice, you see how manipulative it is.

if you look very closely only at an individual thing at a time, it's easy to miss as just "but they're just nice defaults"


if you go back to my spotify analogy, while not perfect kind of shows how Apple has used the closed ecosystem of iOS, forced use of the App store. Forced use of vendors using Apple for payments. And Apple also providing similar services pre-installed, also often coming with "free" discounts, is a massive obstacle to competition in these service categories.

Why would someone actively go to the store and download spotify if Apple music is right there already on their homescreen, pre-logged in, with 3 months free? (or in my case 1 year free when I got the phone). So from a competition stand point, there really isn't any? Spotify needs to charge 12.99 to provide you the same services as Apple is giving at 9.99 because they too pay the apple tax, which grossly impacts their revenues and ability to compete.

this is how anti-compteitive behaviour is overall really bad for us all overall. Sure theres merit to the walled garden and verticle integration that Apple is providing. But at the same time, it's horrible for the market to have apple actively making the playing field uneven and purposely hurting its competition.

this is also not exclusive issue to Apple and has become a far more standard practice amongst all big tech. And the governments around the world have pretty much all stopped enforcing them (because we all know how involved companies like Google and Apple become in political manipulation and lobbying)
 
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Further examination of the non-Apple Apps on iPhone: Facebook, Youtube, Gmail, Amazon, Instagram. I use these services but no, I do not use the apps because ... my lack of trust for these developers. Probably won't use insta at all until they support the browser, which is in the works. The study may have other flaws too, but ...
 
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Im with Facebook ever since Apple applied over exaggerated privacy politics They totally ruin small business growth with this move. Peoples ID where not shared, instead its just a token inside a bucket with different interests. Everybody is safe

Wont explain in detail how it works.

Apple says they want users to "choose", well...., lets choose everything then. Where to buy the Apps and what apps we want in our phones. Tired of Apple trying to make us believe they are the good guys, all they do is based in their business interests.

Hello Facebook employee/Facebook bot! Shame on you for spreading false and innacurate information.

1. Small business are not being hurt by being unable to invade users privacy. And if a business IS hurt by being able to invade my privacy, screw them.
2. No, it is not just a “token in a bucket”.
3. Anyone is free to enable tracking if they want, I applaud Apple for protecting my privacy and will keep it off thank you very much.
4. Users who don’t like Apple’s AppStore model are free to buy an Android, which lets them do all the things you said you want. Forcing Apple to change their model makes about as much sense as forcing someone to move from the country to the city because it gives them more “choice”. By taking away MY ability to choose between two different smart phone platforms you are taking away my choice, not giving me more choice.
5. Apple could make a LOT more money by collecting and using customer information, and by allowing others (such as Facebook) to do the same. Apple ARE being the good guys by putting privacy before profit.

Goodbye Facebook employee/bot!
 
Well yeah, people will more likely use apps that already come on the phone. I don’t know what point they’re getting at. Should iPhones come completely empty and you need to install every app one by one? Sounds inconvenient and cumbersome.
 
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Didn’t Facebook merge their messengers all into one. Why don’t I have a choice between IG DMs and Facebooks DMs. Like if we open these can of worms, isn’t Facebook anticompetitive. Don’t tell me if they could buy out iMessage or copy it, they wouldn’t.
 
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So is the complaint that iOS shouldn't have a phone, weather, messenger, photo, clock, or app store apps?

I suppose they should pre-install a facebook made clock? this is the dumbest argument I've ever heard.

Why didn't facebook let users have a myspace page as their facebook page?
 
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And an even simpler search shows how much of a hack this app is.

From Macrumors:

“The app is "using some trickery" to achieve this, with the website's FAQ revealing that an always-online Mac running the Beeper app is needed to use as a bridge. Alternately, Beeper will ship a "Jailbroken iPhone with the Beeper app installed which bridges to iMessage" to users unable to use a Mac.”
I am not saying the app is good or bad. Just responding to the "is there an app that works like Adium did" meaning aggregating multiple chat services.

I have not desire to do such a thing. Don't use the app. Or really have an interest in this use-case
 
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the question on this analagy is who invited who?

if me, with food allergies that are series is being invited over to someones house for a meal, I have some expectation that they are taking those allergies and intollerances into consideration (hence why they're inviting me)

if I on the other hand invite myself over to your open party? than it's a little more straight forwards

But inviting a vegan to your home, than plopping down a giant steak on their plate is absolutely just being an ******* of a host.
I get all that but how are people to supposed to know your allergies? I don't even ask people honestly. If I invite you over to eat, I provide what me and my family are eating. If I know your allergies or preference ahead of time, I'll accommodate the best I can.

Applying this thought to Apple-etc..., these developers already know what Apple is serving for dinner yet they want to come to dinner and tell Apple what they will eat, how it should be prepared, and the much lower price/cost they are willing to pay for it. Apple is doing the right thing. They said this is what's for dinner. Come one, come all but we aren't tailoring a menu just for each developer. :)
 
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Let's see.




A whole lot more if you actually read the complaint.
lol evetything you're accusing Microsoft of doing Apple is (and others) currently actively doing.

and you refuse to actually accept that dear Apple might not be the same company fighting upwards against IBM in 1984.

At the time browsers for a for sale product, including IE. Microsoft bundled IE into its OS for free in a bid to undercut all competing browsers.
This is a lie and misinformation. At the time, All browsers were still free. Netscape, Opera, etc. All free browers.

If you tried to remove IE you broke File Explorer - you know basically the Windows UI.
Also Not exactly true. When Win98 SE came out with the pre-bundled IE that set this off, IE was not wholly integrated itno the OS. This was the argument that was part of the AntiTrust findings. That the full IE, was NOT full EXPLORE.exe and could be decoupled by minor software tweaks on Microsoft's part. That they were in anti Trust because they intentionally hobbled Explorer.exe as an excuse to say that IE was needed.

Microsoft actively went after the competing browsers by setting license agreements with OEM that no one could preinstall a competing browser or they los the right to license Windows AT ALL (among other things)
And APPLE is actively going after competing services by setting license terms on the Apple store that are entirely in favour of Apple monetization and Apple Apps first. With full ability to block and limit the features and functionalities of Any competing app. Else lose the license to distribute iOS Apps.

So.. Yes, Apple is doing the same thing.

How is one company preinstalling a few commonly accepted stock apps (Apple) anywhere close to the antics Microsoft pulled?
You didnt read my comments fully and decided to just... say stuff like this? My comment directly calls out the monetization service applications that apple pushes up front. Things like the Calculator or Stocks apps are feature limited in compared to the competition. Aren't monetized by Apple, and Apple rarely pushes them, so users looking for more advanced versions of these apps will go to the App store and find competing Applications.

it's the first party services, that Apple directly monetizes, while punishing those third parties with high fees. While Also pre-installing those services, with pre-bundled "free" trials. This creates a behavioural patterns where more people are not even going to even look for competing products. Giving Apple a sizable market advantage with these service categories.

This has nothing to do with Apple good | Microsoft evil. At the present time all my phones are Apple and will likely stay that way. As for non-mobile devices I am a bit more flexible. I have used most every OS out there over my lifetime - DEC, VAX, Multics, ADABAS, IBM mainframes, Mac, Windows, Linux. Hell, I still have an OS/2 Warp machine running in a VM just for nostalgia reasons.
Good for you and so have i. But it's completely irrelevant to the argument and is meaningless chest thumping that doesn't prove your point.

If you view a little pushback on your over-simplified argument as a simple Apple vs Microsoft fan alignment I have to wonder which of us has the predetermined viewpoint.
Excecpt my argument isn't "over simplified" and I didn't have to write multiple paragraphs because it's a "simplified argument". you believe it's a simplified argument because your own perceived bias clearly had you skim over the arguments, ignore what you didn't like to read, and then emotionally try calling out my argument as "simple"

it's ridiculously NOT a simple argument. That's why Antitrust and Anti-competitive behaviour by corporations IS a big deal and requires a lot of judicial oversight and regulations.

the problem which, we no longer have properly enforced.
 
Apps were really neat a while back. Now, I try to spend more time with personal interactions. I don't know. Maybe the days of being glued to a screen are slowly moving behind us.
 
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I get all that but how are people to supposed to know your allergies? I don't even ask people honestly. If I invite you over to eat, I provide what me and my family are eating. If I know your allergies or preference ahead of time, I'll accommodate the best I can.

Applying this thought to Apple-etc..., these developers already know what Apple is serving for dinner yet they want to come to dinner and tell Apple what they will eat, how it should be prepared, and the much lower price/cost they are willing to pay for it. Apple is doing the right thing. They said this is what's for dinner. Come one, come all but we aren't tailoring a menu just for each developer. :)

well, if I'm invited to a dinner, at that point the onus is on me to inform the host of the alllergies. Not just assume. but that's digressing and not really on topic :)

The problem I have with Apple's approach. is that it's exclusionary. it's not going to bring 'the best and brightest' develoeprs to iOS.

Apple wants to host the dinner party for everyone. But at the same time, refuses to adjust their menus for those with special needs. SO if we went back to the analogy of food alergies, Apple by refusing to change, is telling me that I am not welcome at the dinner. (or in this analogy, it's apple effectively telling competing service categories that they're not really welcome on the ipHone)
 
I would never purchase a device with pre-installed Facebook apps unless I could immediately delete them.
The sole facebook app I'd like is the one that ensures absolutely nothing on my phone can communicate with facebook.

Mind, I can't see such an app coming from facebook. (And quite likely it would be extremely difficult to impossible to achieve.)
 
To re-hash the car analogy: I'm sure GM-made car seats are the predominant car seats in GM vehicles. Does that mean GM should offer a selection of third party seats for use in their vehicles?
And the pre-installed radios are used more than Alpine, Kenwood, and JVC combined.
 
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Remember when FB did release a phone? And how it went?
I remember we could install this to rooted/boot unlocked phones back in the day. I gave it a shot on my nexus 5 for all of 1 week before I noped the **** ot and went back to Android.

it was bad.
 
So according to the study, calculator and clock are used more often than Facebook and YouTube? I’m calling BS!
That's true for my phone. And it gives me some hope for humanity to see that Facebook and YouTube aren't the top apps.
 
You know the study was flawed when you see it found that the phone is the #1 most-used app.
 
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