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While I am sure you will tell me I am wrong, when I was running iOS 8 on my 5s, I noticed nothing but lag. I noticed lag on the iPhone 6+ with iOS 8 as well. They may have released 8.0.2 which addressed some critical bugs, but they HAVE NOT optimized it yet to the level that 7.1.2 was at. There are delays and stutters everywhere.

Now go ahead and tell us all that your 5S is fine and is running well. You are in the minority.

I will get more $$$ for my 5S when I sell it because it is running 7.1.2, unlike yours which is upgraded. I got almost double for what my 4S was worth because I left it on 6.1 last year.
 
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Everything about this comment just comes off as a little child who thinks he's cool and rebellious for not conforming with the mass. Eh.

I don't think it has anything to do with conforming. Does it make sense to put IOS 8 on an 4S? Sure, apple supports it, but the real world says it doesn't run well on a 4S.
 
Won't help. It won't sign. You'll get an error if you try to downgrade.
For a normal iOS update, with the iPhone connected to iTunes via USB, when is the firmware file signed by Apple? Is there something in iTunes that adds the signature to the file? Or something in the iPhone itself?

Whatever actually does the signing, how does it get "permission" to sign the file? Does the normal process depend on a live internet connection to Apple?
 
Good. I'm glad they do it.

People should be running the latest OS.

you own shares ? One should be allowed to downgrade to the previous IOS if they don't like the new iOS. I tried Windows 8, hated it, put back on windows 7. it's year 2014, shouldn't be an issue. Some people still use iPhone 4, they can't upgrade to iOS 8, is that a big deal for developers?
 
But Apple does not force you upgrade to latest OS X and OS X App Store doing just fine... Developer should get do their effort. As consumer I would care my choice and I am demanding choice to downgrade.

iOS is a completely closed environment - the only way to get apps onto iOS (apart from jailbreaking) is through the App Store, whereas on OS X the App Store is more supplementary. Since there is a lot more software available for the Mac, forcing upgrades would break a lot more software. On iOS, if the device can support the new iOS, you can almost guarantee the app will get an update for compatibility purposes.

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Now go ahead and tell us all that your 5S is fine and is running well. You are in the minority.

Just because you're having an experience, it doesn't mean everyone is, though... My iPhone 5 is running iOS 8 like butter. Not a single person I know who has upgraded has mentioned lag. Does that mean no one has lag? Of course not, but I wouldn't say for certain that I'm in the minority, either.

Also, iOS 8 has the same visuals as iOS 7, so the novely of iOS 6 when selling a device may not translate to selling an iOS 7 device.
 
This is MOSTLY true, but you can put any app you want on your phone if you have a developer account.

I've been playing with a few experimental apps using my employer's dev account, and it's a lot of fun. No jailbreaking required.

iOS is a completely closed environment - the only way to get apps onto iOS (apart from jailbreaking) is through the App Store, whereas on OS X the App Store is more supplementary. Since there is a lot more software available for the Mac, forcing upgrades would break a lot more software. On iOS, if the device can support the new iOS, you can almost guarantee the app will get an update for compatibility purposes.
 
But Apple does not force you upgrade to latest OS X and OS X App Store doing just fine... Developer should get do their effort. As consumer I would care my choice and I am demanding choice to downgrade.

But apple will deny you 4GB worth of storage space on your device and hold it random until you upgrade. So in a way they are forcing you if you want to use the space you paid for.
 
What I support is Apple signing the current iOS version and the last version of the previous minor iOS branch on a rolling basis. For example, Apple should currently be signing the latest iOS 8.0.x and iOS 7.1.2 and when iOS 8.1 comes out, iOS 7.1.2 signing can close while the last iOS 8.0.x remains open. There are many legitimate reasons for doing this including troubleshooting, developers needing to be able to test on older iOS versions, and large-scale standardized corporate deployments which is a big focus for Apple now with their IBM partnership. This really shouldn't be a big fragmentation concern. The gap between iOS x.0 and iOS x.1 releases is only 6 months, so we're not talking about old iOS version hanging around for years on end like Android. Many apps support the 2 most recent major iOS releases anyways, ie. iOS 7 and 8, so continuing to sign iOS 7.1.2 for a few months until iOS 8.1 comes out isn't going to stall app development, but would provide users with more flexibility.
 
finally, I hate when iOS is fragmented.

I hate when iOS has bugs and uses up extra space :p

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For a normal iOS update, with the iPhone connected to iTunes via USB, when is the firmware file signed by Apple? Is there something in iTunes that adds the signature to the file? Or something in the iPhone itself?

Whatever actually does the signing, how does it get "permission" to sign the file? Does the normal process depend on a live internet connection to Apple?

Yes, it connects to Apple. There used to be ways to spoof the signing server, but that was back in iOS 2, so I doubt you can still do that (or you can, but nobody has made a tutorial).

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But Apple does not force you upgrade to latest OS X and OS X App Store doing just fine... Developer should get do their effort. As consumer I would care my choice and I am demanding choice to downgrade.

It's not easy for developers. Apple always does random stuff like switching enumeration values or deprecating methods with iOS releases. It's like they make it hard on purpose. Also, there are certain things that are added in newer versions of iOS that the old ones don't have, and developers may want to use the new features.

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Just because you're having an experience, it doesn't mean everyone is, though... My iPhone 5 is running iOS 8 like butter. Not a single person I know who has upgraded has mentioned lag. Does that mean no one has lag? Of course not, but I wouldn't say for certain that I'm in the minority, either.

Also, iOS 8 has the same visuals as iOS 7, so the novely of iOS 6 when selling a device may not translate to selling an iOS 7 device.

Seriously, everyone was complaining about iOS 7 being slow. Guess what, I installed 7.0, and it was perfectly fine. I just don't want iOS 8 because it uses more space, has nothing I need, has no jailbreak, and could be risky.
 
What I support is Apple signing the current iOS version and the last version of the previous minor iOS branch on a rolling basis. For example, Apple should currently be signing the latest iOS 8.0.x and iOS 7.1.2 and when iOS 8.1 comes out, iOS 7.1.2 signing can close while the last iOS 8.0.x remains open. There are many legitimate reasons for doing this including troubleshooting, developers needing to be able to test on older iOS versions, and large-scale standardized corporate deployments which is a big focus for Apple now with their IBM partnership. This really shouldn't be a big fragmentation concern. The gap between iOS x.0 and iOS x.1 releases is only 6 months, so we're not talking about old iOS version hanging around for years on end like Android. Many apps support the 2 most recent major iOS releases anyways, ie. iOS 7 and 8, so continuing to sign iOS 7.1.2 for a few months until iOS 8.1 comes out isn't going to stall app development, but would provide users with more flexibility.

Supporting 2 OS simultaneously isn't going to stall app development either. Apple should singing the most current version and one version behind.
 
Good to hear. If people keep holding back OS / hardware upgrades, that's their stupidity. Keep up and get out - pretty simple. I've never had any software issues and downgrading should be banned.
 
Apple made a serious error allowing earlier devices to 'upgrade' to IOS 8.

iPad2 for example. It is simply not powerful enough to run IOS 8 , you are left with a paperweight and a forced upgrade to a new multi 100$ device.

I agree, the iPad 2 is already struggling in iOS 8. But my opinion about why Apple still support iPad 2 is because of another 3 devices that has the same A5 CPU, the iPhone 4S, iPod touch 5G, and the Original iPad Mini. Probably iOS 8 will be the last version to be supported on devices power by A5 CPU.
 
I think it's ludicrous you can't reinstall older versions of Apple's own OS versions. Apple could discourage it, make it a bit of a hassle, make it have big scary warnings first, sure, but I think they should provide a method for it for users who really want to do so once in full possession of the facts.

The features and experience (not to mention wider selection of new app releases/updates) of the newer OS versions should be compelling enough. People shouldn't ever want, or feel the need, to go back.

But this way, Apple gets a high adoption rate from almost everyone but the most wary of users and calls it a success, even if people end up hating it and wish they could go back.
 
I kept a copy of my IPSW for the 4S just in case.

It would be quite splendid if you could actually use that IPSW, wouldn't it? Unfortunately, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that this local back-up of the IPSW file would not help you at this point at in time. The problem stems from the fact that restoring your device through iTunes involves a critical step during which Apple would have to sign the firmware in order for the installation to continue successfully. As the news story has stated above, the firmware in question, 7.1.2, is no longer being signed by Apple, and thus you can no longer utilize that specific IPSW file despite the fact that you already have it on your hard drive.
 
It would be quite splendid if you could actually use that IPSW, wouldn't it? Unfortunately, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that this local back-up of the IPSW file would not help you at this point at in time. The problem stems from the fact that restoring your device through iTunes involves a critical step during which Apple would have to sign the firmware in order for the installation to continue successfully. As the news story has stated above, the firmware in question, 7.1.2, is no longer being signed by Apple, and thus you can no longer utilize that specific IPSW file despite the fact that you already have it on your hard drive.

While I absolutely appreciate the more in depth explanation, I have now been told this 8 other times in this exact motherloving thread (and if you're like me and have 100 posts per page, I've been told 9 times on this page alone plus 1 saying there's a website to download any IPSW). I get it, the IPSW I have is useless without the "signing" that they have now ceased. I get it people. Thank you.

P.S. I don't know if I'm going to keep responding to people responding to me. Maybe if I get bored of it, but they haven't, so I will match tit for tat.
 
Somewhat sad to see the king order the bridges be burnt behind the marching troops.
 
Something to really dislike Apple about. I can understand them not allowing people to downgrade but what about if you just want to restore to iOS 7.1.2 or just wanted to reinstall as clean slate. Why must you be forced to restore to an updated version if all you want is to wipe it clean and reinstall only? People need to speak out and say it like as it is..instead of being blind fanboys and go with whatever they throw at us. Apple listens when we tell them off because they value customer over anything and that's what makes them valued company but most of the time people make excuses for them when they screw up and tries to patch things up for them..instead of saying it like it is. Doing so just puts them in a comfort zone..where they feel..they can get away with anything and do as they please. Such is the reason why we have such dilemmas.
 
The problem with this is the "geniuses" at the genius bar often recommend restoring your iPhone whenever they don't know what is wrong with it. If you have a defective product that is still under warranty, the manufacturer shouldn't be able to force you to accept an inferior product than the one you purchased.

Imagine your new BMW wasn't idling right, but the dealer tells you the only way they can diagnose the problem is to update the engine software first. Oh, and BTW, the new engine software will reduce horsepower by 25%.
 
I does affect us all in some way, but it's not really an issue with iOS.
You should go ahead and ask a developer what fragmentation does. What it does is that it makes newer API less attractive to a developer, and it will require developers to keep in mind users that are still running out-to-date software in order to ensure stability and performance towards system versions and revisions otherwise unnecessary.


The sole reason why you see millions upon millions of apps update with new iOS 8 API's and features, stability fixes and performance enhancement on day one with iOS is due to the fact that developers know that the vast majority of iOS users will update within a matter of days, or weeks.

If this had not been the case, the developers wouldn't have cared. The competition within App Store is so huge, and the continuous flow of efficient iOS upgrades forces (which is a good thing) app developers to keep their apps up-to-date and enhanced with all the latest features and whatnot fast in order to keep them relevant in the marketplace.


Take Android for example, its been over two years since they released their "Holo" optimised UI and UX-design, and still less than 10% of the apps on Google Play Store have optimised towards these guidelines at all... And lots of Google's latest API's introduced in Android 4.X have yet to be utilised in the majority of apps on Google Play Store simply due to the fact that there are so many out-of-date devices out there that it makes no sense for developer to focus on the latest and greatest software, and the latest and greatest hardware because that's not where their potential demographic lies.


As a Android developer you wont develop a app or a game with the Galaxy Note 4 in mind, instead you have in mind all those millions upon millions older and lower priced models in the market as they make of a much higher market share for Android compared to the top-of-the-line modes forcing developers to ensure that their apps and game will run on both Android 2.X, as well as Android 3.X and 4.X and you will also need to make sure it runs on that slow Galaxy Young as well as that high-power Note 4 or you will lower your potential customer base quite a bit.


Why else do you think games like Balloon Tower Defence runs much slower on a Galaxy S5 compared to an old iPhone 4S? How come on level 80+ things start to lag as hell on the S5, while you can keep going until level 130+ on the old iPhone 4S before the same thing starts happening on that phone? How come graphics in games tends to look better on older iPhone devices compared to brand new, top-of-the-line Android devices?


It all comes down to optimisation and utilising the latest and greatest features, programming languages and API's of the platform. Android has a huge disadvantage compared to iOS on this, and of course people would want all iOS users to update as well in order to keep things attractive for developers in the future.

By this logic, we should all bow to the "developers" and their whimsical ways ?

How about they slow down, spend more time testing before releasing beta and alpha grade software apps to the general public.

Not every consumer is always out for the latest and supposedly "greatest", if it impacts his/her daily routine and constantly having to relearn functionalities due to feature-creep and redesigns. eg. there was nothing wrong with the way iOS 6 looked. Instead, i have some smug designer dictate to me what I should like.

I for one am fed-up with the constant stream of updates and workload this imposes on me in having to test, upgrade and maybe downgrade to navigate around new bugs or old bugs reappearing due to branching.

It's all about having choices.

I bet you'll be the first to line up when cars without a steering wheel are introduced and new laws mandate that "manual driving" is simply too dangerous.
 
While I am sure you will tell me I am wrong, when I was running iOS 8 on my 5s, I noticed nothing but lag. I noticed lag on the iPhone 6+ with iOS 8 as well. They may have released 8.0.2 which addressed some critical bugs, but they HAVE NOT optimized it yet to the level that 7.1.2 was at. There are delays and stutters everywhere.

Now go ahead and tell us all that your 5S is fine and is running well. You are in the minority.

I will get more $$$ for my 5S when I sell it because it is running 7.1.2, unlike yours which is upgraded. I got almost double for what my 4S was worth because I left it on 6.1 last year.

I don't need to say it, you already did.
 
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