Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Celebrates Pride Festival With Rainbow Apple Watch Bands for Staff
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
- Status
Well, then don't go to the parade, NANNY, and stop caring about what millions of others do with their own time. It's none of your business who goes to a parade and no one asked for your useless permission.
[Edit: I made minor changes to my post to fix some wording issues or explain myself a bit more].
Thank you for your comments; this is a very sensitive topic and I always try to be sensitive to other people so I hope my first post and this one are sensitive. Your comments are a wonderful opportunity to clarify my previous post, which wasn't edited and fleshed out very well for this particular topic. As I've said, I've done one project in this area, which does not mean I'm an expert by any means but I've spent a lot of time with the literature.
Just as background - I'm a scientist and a medical professional who does research exclusively with human subjects - I deal with nature vs. nurture questions just about every day. I try to explain everything I can biologically but it rarely works out cleanly, leaving much to "environmental factors" (or as we typically write "future research" so we can publish more papers and get more grants).
The idea of environmental factors is complex - it's basically a catchall phrase to cover everything genetics (sometimes epigenetics and biology too) cannot directly explain. I should have done a better job at defining what I meant. I also should have included the non-genetic research in my previous post. I use the term "environmental" to refer to any effects on development after conception. This covers the intrauterine period but does not necessarily stop there. For males, one prevailing current thought (some scientists disagree with this or are not sold on it yet) is that the bulk of determination of sexual orientation is done by birth (so 30-40% of variance in sexual orientation is explained by genetics and about 40% more explained by environmental factors before birth - this research, however, needs replicating so the results are tentative). The rest of the variance might be explained by as yet unknown intrauterine factors but even so, post-birth environmental factors possibly play a role too (see for example, The biological basis of human sexual orientation: is there a role for epigenetics? Ngun TC, Vilain E. Adv Genet. 2014;86:167-84. doi: 10.1016/B978-0-12-800222-3.00008-5. PMID: 25172350). What this means if this research is correct is that the overwhelming majority of men who are homosexual would very likely never remember "not being gay". Eventually scientists might demonstrate that homosexuality is largely biologically determined (the research is getting there but explaining all the causes of variance in expression will take a lot of time and research) but we will most likely never rule out social environment effects on sexual orientation.
Saying you were born gay is perfectly acceptable in colloquial use (such as in a comment on Macrumors) if you're male - see below about females; I simply reject the phrase "I was born gay" because it is too imprecise for me as a scientist. We have not yet ruled out post-birth environmental effects so I prefer the pedantic phrase "I developed gay". Both phrases have limitations (and if I was homosexual, I most likely wouldn't say it in normal conversation in part because it sounds stupid). However, in formal settings where precision is necessary, I think it's necessary to point out the limitations of our current scientific and medical knowledge. To do otherwise is placing the cart before the horse.
Addendum: Homosexuality in females
The causes of homosexuality in females are much less clear. The current scientific/medical thought is that societal environmental factors play a much larger role than they do with men. We need more research to find other factors but for now, it's really an stretch of the science for a lesbian to say she was born gay (this, again, is not saying she necessarily made a choice to be homosexual). Maybe in 10-20 years we'll have the evidence to support that statement but for now, it's just not there for females. I certainly wouldn't object to its use in normal conversation because the complexities of the science would be lost on most people (and pedantic) but we also need to be careful to not run ahead of the science.
Last edited:
Thanks for your contribution. This really is fascinating stuff and I'm excited to see what the scientific community discovers in upcoming years.
To be precise, we're not talking about a "lifestyle". There is not an LGBTQ lifestyle. There are countless lifestyles that LGBTQ people live. Such as marriage.
Curious..what fasinating religion is this that you talk about?
Who are you to tell someone if they are oppressed by someone or not? Are you sitting on their shoulder?
There are parades for many things that don't need one. (St. Patrick's Day?)
Parades are fun and help build community, though.
This place never fails to amaze me. An article about a watch band has people spouting homosexual garbage. Why do you care if a free watch band is given to Apple staff? As far as I can work out it doesn't actually impact your lives in any way, shape or form. If you think Apple stopped developing products to make this then you are the biggest idiot on the forum. And let's be clear, there are a serious no,her of idiots here, so to be king of the idiots is really quite an achievement.
It's also amazing that people wonder why these topics end up in the section where you have to have posted over 100 times. I think the rules should be tweaked further, most of the garbage comes from people who have registered in the past 12 months or so - go take a look at joining dates if you don't believe me.
And for what it's worth I'm straight, but I have a lot of lesbian and gay friends and my best friend announce to the world that she was transgender a few years ago. Sadly pretty much everyone she knew and every member of her family turned their backs on her. I was surprised, shocked I guess, but I didn't actually care, I wasn't bothered, I didn't immediately worry she might fancy me, anymore than I worry that my gay friends may want to have sex with me or that my lesbian friends don't find me attractive. To be honest I'm surprised anyone finds me attractive, I guess I got the brains over the looks! I really don't think LGBT people have a hard time from a large chunk of society, I KNOW they do, I've seen it when I've been out with my friends, I've heard the abuse, I've seen a friend after he was attacked in the street and left for dead, he was in hospital for 5 weeks. Do you know what he did? It's disgusting, so be prepared for this shocker........
.....he walked through town by himself! I know! The disgusting evil man, what a gay thing to do! To be fair, the thugs who attacked him had seen him holding his boyfriends hand a few times, so they knew he had for for this disgusting behaviour. His boyfriend is something like 6'7 and would make the average WWE wrestler look like Golem, he's a nightclub doorman. I have no idea why they waited for my friend to be out without his boyfriend. So yeah, it happens, I've also been told many tales about places that don't want to serve them or give them poor service, anyone who thinks that stuff is OK is simply insane.
I'm also an atheist, this is by choice, I was a Christian, my fiancé was Muslim but renounced her faith. I don't believe in any god, too much rubbish, too many inconsistencies, no facts, nothing anyone can prove to me scientifically. I really don't like that people can hide behind a view by saying its part of their religion. Grow a spine, you can choose, you don't have to believe everything you read. Amazingly people don't believe the newspapers printed this morning, but they believe a book written centuries ago...
Let's be honest, we are all actually atheists whether you like it or not. It's just that I believe in one less god than most of you.
It's also amazing that people wonder why these topics end up in the section where you have to have posted over 100 times. I think the rules should be tweaked further, most of the garbage comes from people who have registered in the past 12 months or so - go take a look at joining dates if you don't believe me.
And for what it's worth I'm straight, but I have a lot of lesbian and gay friends and my best friend announce to the world that she was transgender a few years ago. Sadly pretty much everyone she knew and every member of her family turned their backs on her. I was surprised, shocked I guess, but I didn't actually care, I wasn't bothered, I didn't immediately worry she might fancy me, anymore than I worry that my gay friends may want to have sex with me or that my lesbian friends don't find me attractive. To be honest I'm surprised anyone finds me attractive, I guess I got the brains over the looks! I really don't think LGBT people have a hard time from a large chunk of society, I KNOW they do, I've seen it when I've been out with my friends, I've heard the abuse, I've seen a friend after he was attacked in the street and left for dead, he was in hospital for 5 weeks. Do you know what he did? It's disgusting, so be prepared for this shocker........
.....he walked through town by himself! I know! The disgusting evil man, what a gay thing to do! To be fair, the thugs who attacked him had seen him holding his boyfriends hand a few times, so they knew he had for for this disgusting behaviour. His boyfriend is something like 6'7 and would make the average WWE wrestler look like Golem, he's a nightclub doorman. I have no idea why they waited for my friend to be out without his boyfriend. So yeah, it happens, I've also been told many tales about places that don't want to serve them or give them poor service, anyone who thinks that stuff is OK is simply insane.
I'm also an atheist, this is by choice, I was a Christian, my fiancé was Muslim but renounced her faith. I don't believe in any god, too much rubbish, too many inconsistencies, no facts, nothing anyone can prove to me scientifically. I really don't like that people can hide behind a view by saying its part of their religion. Grow a spine, you can choose, you don't have to believe everything you read. Amazingly people don't believe the newspapers printed this morning, but they believe a book written centuries ago...
Let's be honest, we are all actually atheists whether you like it or not. It's just that I believe in one less god than most of you.
Revenge? Where do you get this crap from? Do you even know any gay people?
We aren't a fictional character to be believed or not believed in. It's like saying you don't believe in tall people or left handed people. Which is dumb. Why can't you just accept gay people exist same as you? It's not something to agree or disagree with...it just is. You might as well disagree with the color of the sky.
[doublepost=1467053169][/doublepost]
Bully for you. But your anecdotal evidence doesn't speak for every person on the planet. I wish it did. Hopefully someday it will. But that won't be in my lifetime. People are still too hateful and prejudiced on this planet for that to happen anytime soon.
God has a capital "G" and yes, God exists.
No. That is not the topic. This was a special watch band Apple made for its employees who wanted them.
You're probably going to have to get over your aversion to "endless" watch bands, because, like keyboard covers, iPhone cases and lightning cables in various colors, Apple and third parties will continue to make accessories for Apple products (so long as loyal Apple customers continue to buy them). Occasionally, some will make special purpose accessories that aren't for general sale, such as this one, and some loyal customers will express a desire to get them.
How does that read to you?
So, my first same sex attractions were at age four. I can't really remember anything on any subject prior to that age. So I'm sorry my memories don't go further back into the womb, but if they did I think you would find that I was in fact, born this way. So I reject assertions that I wasn't, when my earliest memories reflect my orientation.
Benjamin Frost is not teaching anyone to kill.
I've added emphasis to your quote above. You cannot force other people to accept your beliefs, full stop.
Unfortunately, people also have the right to be racist. They don't have the right to commit a hate crime. Benjamin Frost can choose to believe that homosexuality is a sin. He does not have the right to murder. You have the right to choose to disagree. You can't make him do anything.
As I'm sure you're aware, this is a free country—at least for the time being. It's a blessing and a curse. If we start forcing people to think a certain way, or behave a certain way, or adhere to any given mindset, we go down a slippery slope of no return. You should hold dear and defend the right of someone to disagree with you because that very right is what protects you where you stand right now. If those protections weren't in place, this could easily go the other way and you could be forced to undergo shock therapy or some other atrocious method to "beat the homosexuality out of you." I'm being dead serious here. If the law were changed, and precedent set to force people to accept a certain mindset, at some point in the future if the country swings back to being mostly conservative (as they are looking to at the moment, not only here but just look at Brexit) then you'll be in for a world for hurt as precedent would be set to force the belief of the majority onto the minority. There are reasons why our laws are the way they are.
Fortunately, we've begun to rectify things so that homosexuals aren't unfairly discriminated against. But you can't legislate how people feel or think, and if you tried the effects would be quite chilling. Your best bet is to educate, peacefully. I came from a very conservative background and that (and my church which preaches love above all else) is what has led me to a more moderate place of loving support for those who are homosexuals.
I wanted to refrain from getting into my personal beliefs, as it often just starts more trouble on the forums as people can't see how sincere I am about loving other people via writing about it using text on the web, but I think it's important to bring some clarity to this discussion. You see, I can believe that homosexuality is a sin and I can also believe that I should love and support homosexuals. I don't have to support their lifestyle or the actions they take (side note, being born homosexual isn't a sin, a man lying with a man or a woman lying with a woman is the sin part, according to our beliefs, so there are homosexuals at my church who abstain from sex entirely, as well as those who struggle with sin of the flesh, just like we all do, and that is their choice and we love always). I also don't have to support or accept the beliefs of my best friend, who is an atheist, or support the actions of my friends in college who would drink or smoke pot—which I abstain from. Unfortunately, many so-called "Christians" believe the two are mutually exclusive. But the truth couldn't be further from their belief—at least if you take the Bible at face value (I realize there are interpretations). I take a more simple approach. For example, Jesus forgave the sins of the prostitute, for she loved much. Here is a link to the passage in context: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+7:36-50&version=ESV. But it goes to show that we shouldn't disassociate ourselves from those who are sinners, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Myself especially. I struggle with my own issues and have found wonderful support and counsel with other members of my church. And that's the whole point of the church—to have communion with other believers, to love and support one another as the family of the living God. But we must strive to be like Jesus and love all people above all else, no matter their skin color, background, sexual orientation or beliefs. And we should seek out and befriend non-believers and show them the pure love God has for them. That they can find peace and love in their heart. But no matter how hard we try, we can never be like Jesus fully. And that's why there's the cross. Jesus is the only perfect man to have ever lived, and he went to hell and back to atone for us. He bridged the great divide of perfection for us so that we could be one with God when we die. So yeah, that's Christianity at it's core. It's sad that so many people have strayed from that. LOVE LOVE LOVE! And let Jesus do the rest. It's not up to us to judge anything ever.
Read it a few times. If it doesn't click don't worry about it and move on. Life is too short.
[doublepost=1467054097][/doublepost]
Hold on, I have a response round here somewhere.....
Here it is
LOL
The ignorance...it burns.
Heterosexuals announce their heterosexuality every day of the year. Many movies are made about the pursuit of this heterosexuality. Books are written on it. They show they are proud of it every time they show a pic of their kids and grandkids or push a stroller down the street in their own little heterosexual parade.
But as long as we are talking about parades, do you realize that many of the people in a gay pride parade are actually heterosexuals themselves? Perhaps you should ask a fellow heterosexual why they see the need.
Well you sure didn't inherit their work ethic so I doubt you'll inherit their bigotries.
So your own sexuality could be changed so that you now found people of the same gender sexually attractive? And you'd be happy having sex with them, talking long romantic walks on the beach with them and marrying them? I call BS. I don't think that is possible for you at all. And it isn't possible for me to change that either.
May Gods love be with you, Always.
Being gay is not a sin. I'm sorry you're only aware of the English translations and not the original texts.
- Status