Apple debuting two-button mouse?

[BillHarrison]

I think the rumored tactic of shipping a two-button mouse as an option is fine, but I don't ever want to see Apple ship a mouse with more than one button with the computers, for one simple reason. I've spent too much time trying to get computer novices to understand what a second button does, and many never get it. (these are the same people who never quite get the difference between a click and a double-click - when you throw another unlabeled button on the mouse, they lose it.)

I mean, call me crazy, but is it any easier to explain to them how to control - click, or keyboard shortcuts? I would imagine any "mind" (i use the term loosely with someone that can't comprehend a simple mouse click, there have been studies with monkeys playing video games using mice.... ) that can't comprehend a right click, would be out to lunch when it came to explaining something even more complicated, requiring 2 buttons, on 2 different devices! Wow, now that has got to totally fry said mind that loses it when asked to click 1 different button!

 

[maka]

I mean, call me crazy, but is it any easier to explain to them how to control - click, or keyboard shortcuts? I would imagine any "mind" (i use the term loosely with someone that can't comprehend a simple mouse click, there have been studies with monkeys playing video games using mice.... ) that can't comprehend a right click, would be out to lunch when it came to explaining something even more complicated, requiring 2 buttons, on 2 different devices! Wow, now that has got to totally fry said mind that loses it when asked to click 1 different button!

I think if you can understand modifier keys for the keyboard (such as the shift key turning letters to uppercase) then you can understand the use of modifier keys to change the action of the mouse click. What's so difficult?

 

[BillHarrison]

I think if you can understand modifier keys for the keyboard (such as the shift key turning letters to uppercase) then you can understand the use of modifier keys to change the action of the mouse click. What's so difficult?

Nothing, but that is my point exactly. What is so difficult about having one single click to do the same thing on a 2 button mouse?

It requires even LESS thought than a modifier key.

This is in reference to a poster that said 2 button mice are often incomprehensible to computer users.

I am simply pointing out, that if someone can master using a modifier key, i would hope the same user could do something so simple as determine what the right button does on a mouse. I mean, there are those on this thread equating someone figuring out how to use a right click is the equivelant of coming up with a grand unified theory..... Right clicking is not rocket science, its monkey science

 

[Takeo]

You've described the correct way to use a mouse. Using a palm mouse is akin to palming a pencil. Personal preferences not withstanding, mice that fill the palm are simply less efficient than using your fingers while anchoring your hand on the table (just as you would use a pencil). You'll *never* see a designer with a giant Microsoft mouse, even though they track quite well. Pointing accuracy would be compromised by the shape of the mouse.

I'm a designer. I've been a designer for 12 years. I hate hate hate the white apple mouse. Perhaps I'm not using the mouse "correctly"... whatever

 

[maka]

Nothing, but that is my point exactly. What is so difficult about having one single click to do the same thing on a 2 button mouse?

It requires even LESS thought than a modifier key.

This is in reference to a poster that said 2 button mice are often incomprehensible to computer users.

I am simply pointing out, that if someone can master using a modifier key, i would hope the same user could do something so simple as determine what the right button does on a mouse. I mean, there are those on this thread equating someone figuring out how to use a right click is the equivelant of coming up with a grand unified theory..... Right clicking is not rocket science, its monkey science

I really hate this kind of argument, because I really think 1 button is better for "power usage" of the computer, not just for computer illiterate people... but I also think that anybody knows what a modifier key is. Everybody can understand the shift key, so extending this idea to the mouse is easy and simple for new users. Two buttons is not like that, It can be confusing to new users

But again, I don't think Apple has to keep a 1 button mouse for the sake of new users, but for the sake of good UI design.

 

[pizzach]

Just wanted to remind you people that while power users tend to use mice with multiple buttons, having a mice with multiple buttons doesn't make you a power user.

 

[Takeo]

Just wanted to remind you people that while power users tend to use mice with multiple buttons, having a mice with multiple buttons doesn't make you a power user.

What the heck is a "power user" anyway. I've always thought that was a bizarre term that people love to throw around. I'm a designer, I use Photoshop everyday, I also use BBEdit and CVS to do jsp development, I use Illustrator and InDesign/Quark now and then... Dreamweaver now and then for asp.net dev... and I use email, surf the web... etc. Does that make be a so-called "power user" with a capital P?!?!? Whatever. I never call myself that. I'm just a designer/developer.

 

[adamfilip]

i dont understand why there are already more then 400 posts regarding the apple mouse.

whats the big deal.

you can buy a usb two button mouse for like 10 bucks.. almost anywhere

 

[ACED]

The best use for the one button mouse (and perhaps most intuititive use) is like that woman, who, when she set up her new Mac, thought it was a foot switch, (like her sewing machine).

For feet, a one button mouse makes more sense, however, as any PC user will tell you, most humans are capable of using a two button mouse ...

 

[jayeskreezy]

that's great...too bad I already purchased a two button one though from another vendor...mac took too long....two is better than one when it comes to buttons on a mouse....i think it's a great idea if they really want to compete with windows.... the one button mouse is stupid for most people coming from the two

 

[Steamboatwillie]

Button?

I have 4 Macs. 3 Laptops and one desktop. The laptops come with one button and, unless you plug in a 2 button mouse, pretty much force you to use that one button. On my desktop I use a 2 button scroll wheel mouse. When I plug into the laptops I use the same. My problem isn't so much with a one button design. My problem is that the Apple mouse doesn't have any buttons. The whole mouse is the button. That is very uncomfortable to me. It is also a bit confusing when compared to the laptops. The laptops have a button that is separate from the pointing device. It would seem to me, if they are trying to make some consistent point, that the trackpads should be the click button as well to be in line with the actual mouse. Yes, I do realize that the trackpad can "click" and noting that could one assume that the laptops are indeed 2 buttons? It just seems a bit odd to me. Choice is always good. Use what you like, I do, and forget about the rest.

 

[Sunrunner]

Over 400 comments already, about a button on a computer mouse.....I thought the world was a bit more interesting than to talk about an extra button so much?

Im sure whatever Apple comes out with will be cool and innovative. Regardless of the opinion regarding the number of buttons one likes on their mice, it will be cool to see what Apple comes up with...

 

[hayesk]

Nothing, but that is my point exactly. What is so difficult about having one single click to do the same thing on a 2 button mouse?

It requires even LESS thought than a modifier key.

Wow, you people just don't get it. It's not ctrl-click vs. right-click. It's assuming the presence of right-click. In fact, yes, ctrl-click is probably harder for a new user to discover than right-click. But that's not the point.

Windows machines all have two button mice. Developers know this. Windows developers put commands only in the contextual menus that can't be found elsewhere including the main menu bar. That's the problem.

Contextual menus aren't very "explorable". New users aren't going to go around right-clicking random places in an application. It's not apparent that a contextual menu will appear over something if you right-click it. Many are afraid that right-clicking something that obviously isn't a menu (like a word in text or an icon) might do something drastic like delete it, change it in some way, etc.

The main menu bar is obvious. A new user knows they can click on each one and read the commands and all will be well as long as they don't select a command. It's very inviting to explore - a new user can learn the app easily this way. If there are commands only in contextual menus, new users will probably not discover them unless they are told about them. That's not very user-friendly.

Since Apple ships one button mouse, developers cannot hide commands only in contextual menus. They have to put them in the main menu bar. New users will find them.

For "power" users, this is good too. You can use a two button mouse if you like, but since the commands are in the main menu, you can assign keyboard shortcuts to them yourself. It's win-win.

Some of you have doubts that developers won't be lazy and ignore Apple's guidelines and still put commands in the main menu if Apple ships two button mice by default. I disagree. Even some Apple developers are assuming everyone knows about ctrl-click, which is wrong. In Mail.app you can mark a folder full of folders as "read" (I do this to my three Junk folders for my three accounts by ctrl-clicking the Junk container and choosing Mark All as Read). If I didn't know about ctrl-click (which many new users don't) I'd have to mark them all read individually. I've sent feedback to Apple about this.

IMHO, Apple should still ship the one button mouse by default, and have a BTO option for a multibutton mouse.

And don't get me started about scoll wheels - tendinitis waiting to happen. Page Up/Down works much better.

 

[Tinhead]

Over 400 comments already, about a button on a computer mouse.....I thought the world was a bit more interesting than to talk about an extra button so much?

It might seem like a silly discussion, but in fact the one-button mouse stands for everything that Apple essentially is, or at least was: a computer company that takes usability and ease-of-use into account where others don't.

The mouse-button issue is far more complex and important than it might seem like on the surface. This isn't just about buttons, it's about the fundamentals of GUI design. I don't think anyone is against the option of having an Apple-branded multi-button-scroll-wheeling mouse, but the idea of it becoming default is shocking.

Yes, no one is saying that is indeed becoming default, but that might change. Think of the recent decision to ditch firewire cables from iPods. Well, it made a lot of economical and logical sense to go for USB2 even though it might technically be inferior (in some cases) than Firewire. Apple looked at the market and said to themselves, well, everyone is using USB2 (especially our Windows-users), let's go with that instead. Makes sense, yes, but nevertheless they ditched a superior design.

Who is to say this will not happen with the mice as well? After all, most people just care about having two buttons and a wheel. Is Apple going to look at the situation and say, well, since everyone seems to want a two-button mouse let's just give them that? If they do, they will also kill the superior GUI design that goes with the one-button mouse.

As it stands now, OS X gives all users the option to use whatever amount of input device buttons they desire. This is fundamentally correct (from the point of usability at least), and the Windows-approach is fundamentally incorrect. The results can be seen in the bad GUI design of Windows, some of which are directly related to its two-button centric design.

I don't know about anyone else, but I got a Mac because it's a great package and designed by people who are not just engineers and IT experts. OS X makes so much more sense than the competition. Don't be so eager to dismiss the one-button mouse because, according to you "less is less". It's not that simple.

 

[mpw]

…Windows machines all have two button mice. Developers know this. Windows developers put commands only in the contextual menus that can't be found elsewhere including the main menu bar. That's the problem….

…Contextual menus aren't very "explorable". New users aren't going to go around right-clicking random places in an application...

What commands appearing in a Windows contextual menu accessed by a right click are not available through a menu using single clicks? I never found any I’m aware of.

Why aren’t contextual menu “explorable”? I often right click exactly because I know that well written software, if truly intuitive, will give me an immediate short menu of the commands I’m most likely to need at that point if it’s not there I know I can then resort to the menu bar.

 

[Tinhead]

Wow, you people just don't get it. It's not ctrl-click vs. right-click. It's assuming the presence of right-click. In fact, yes, ctrl-click is probably harder for a new user to discover than right-click. But that's not the point...

Yes, exactly! I could not have said it better myself (sure tried but with limited success it seems).

 

[Tinhead]

What commands appearing in a Windows contextual menu accessed by a right click are not available through a menu using single clicks? I never found any I’m aware of.

Why aren’t contextual menu “explorable”? I often right click exactly because I know that well written software, if truly intuitive, will give me an immediate short menu of the commands I’m most likely to need at that point if it’s not there I know I can then resort to the menu bar.

You haven't found them because you are not looking for them. If you did, you'd find quite a few. As was pointed out earlier, even OS X has commands in contextual menus that are not accessible from anywhere else.

Nothing is perfect, but at least Apple is taking all this into consideration. OS X developers get not only great developer tools but also GUI and HCI guidelines. Apple is proving its devs great reference, and when you put this all together you get arguably the best 3rd party software on any OS. I don't know about technical details, but with respect to usability at least I dare to say so.

 

[JangoFett124]

Well in regards to contextual menus being shortcuts to menu items, even the Finder doesn't follow that rule completely. How else can you enable folder actions or view package contents.

In text documents right-clicking to fix spelling is really the only way to go, and in web browsers right-clicking links is the best way to get features specific to it. Just for functions like these, which are best for context menus. A two button mouse with scroll-function would be nice just for little things like these, and of course games. (not that I support devs implementing features that are context menu only in most instances, but there are exceptions).

Even if they do keep it one button, I hope they add a feature akin to the new Powerbook's scrolling function, where moving the fingers on the top of the mouse would act similar to a scroll-wheel.

 

[Chappers]

Obviously I'm just a lazy bugger. I like my extra buttons to quit things, open the drive, close windows etc and to use expose (which I haven't worked out yet for my mouse).

But if Macs came with a two button mouse then we would get more switchers - me thinks.

I would still have 7 buttons though.
And know how to use them in a fight - thinking Quake 3 arena here.
You got one button - you're frag meat.

 

[mpw]

You haven't found them because you are not looking for them. If you did, you'd find quite a few. As was pointed out earlier, even OS X has commands in contextual menus that are not accessible from anywhere else.….

Not being funny but could you perhaps identify a few for me? Just saying they’re there and that I’m not looking for them doesn’t really prove your argument. Apple’s own software has from time to time broken it’s own guidelines so one or two instances isn’t going to prove your theory, I’m looking for a meaningful collection of commands that can only be achieved through the right click.

 

[jettredmont]

If this is true I wonder how many of those die hard single button mouse users are going to eat humble pie when Apple starts adding killer features for it's new dual-button mouse?

I came from only using MS Windows and use a FIVE button mouse I find it a boon for scrolling with the wheel and the thumb buttons really make Exposé an addiction add right click for copy and paste and I couldn't imagine using a single button mouse again.

Exactly. I, too, use five buttons (the two main buttons, the scroll wheel/button, and two thumb buttons). For Expose. It's so damned natural that, personally, it would be a sin for Apple to move all the way up to two buttons that showcase nothing more than context menus instead of skipping on up to real utility, taking Expose from the buttons farthest from your left hand to the ones directly under your right thumb (obviously, this only applies to the right-handed majority; are F9-11 less of a pain for lefties to hit while mousing?) Showcase the greatest thing about OS X! Maybe even default the buttons setup to enable Expose and Widgets via the buttons.

If you haven't tried a five-button mouse, get one. They're not overwhelmingly expensive. I prefer the Microsoft Explorer with two small thumb buttons on one side over the ambidextrous mouse with a large thumb button on either side, as whenever someone comes up to the mouse with two large thumb buttons and moves it around, they inevitably hit the expose trigger and wonder what they did.

My personal setup: Button 4 as "Expose All Apps", Btn 5 as "Expose Current App", Ctrl+Btn 5 as "Expose Desktop".

'Course, once you get used to that on your mouse, moving to a one-button trackpad is an absolute killer ... you also need to get SideTrack so you can set the top corners to Btn 4/Btn 5, but then those get accidentally triggered about as often as the side buttons on the ambidextrous MS mouse ...

I expect with Tiger that Widgets will take over Button 5, and that Btn 4 will get Ctrl modifier for the desktop and Shift modifier for all apps (or somesuch). Post Tiger I might need a six button mouse!

 

[BillHarrison]

Wow, you people just don't get it. It's not ctrl-click vs. right-click. It's assuming the presence of right-click. In fact, yes, ctrl-click is probably harder for a new user to discover than right-click. But that's not the point.

Windows machines all have two button mice. Developers know this. Windows developers put commands only in the contextual menus that can't be found elsewhere including the main menu bar. That's the problem.

Contextual menus aren't very "explorable". New users aren't going to go around right-clicking random places in an application. It's not apparent that a contextual menu will appear over something if you right-click it. Many are afraid that right-clicking something that obviously isn't a menu (like a word in text or an icon) might do something drastic like delete it, change it in some way, etc.

The main menu bar is obvious. A new user knows they can click on each one and read the commands and all will be well as long as they don't select a command. It's very inviting to explore - a new user can learn the app easily this way. If there are commands only in contextual menus, new users will probably not discover them unless they are told about them. That's not very user-friendly.

And what is the difference between clicking the menu bar to explore and right clicking to do the same? I mean, I know pc users that don't right click. Do they still acheive results? Yes. Are they missing shortcuts and features? Yes. Who is at the loss here? The user. One can't assume that a user would not figure out right clicking, any more than one can assume that a user WILL explore the menu bar, and know all the available options. It all boils down to learning how to use your computer and the applications on it. Doesnt matter where the buttons located, or what it is, if you can't or won't learn it, it does'nt matter what menu it shows up in.

I don't honestly believe it makes a bit of difference whether said menu is brought up with a right click or a left click. Explain to me how this changes anything?

 

[MacWhispers]

I'm truly scared, as it affects my ability to be productive at my computer.

Don't be scared. We're sitting on a gorgeous one-button mouse design that I will take to production the moment Apple ceases manufacture of theirs.

Jack, CEO
DVForge, Inc.

 

[Tinhead]

Not being funny but could you perhaps identify a few for me? Just saying they’re there and that I’m not looking for them doesn’t really prove your argument. Apple’s own software has from time to time broken it’s own guidelines so one or two instances isn’t going to prove your theory, I’m looking for a meaningful collection of commands that can only be achieved through the right click.

That request is understandable and acceptable, you're not being funny. I just went through some of the apps I frequently use on my PC, and for example my instant messenger Miranda IM is heavily dependent on right-clicking. You lose essential functions if you don't. Thankfully, sending messages is indeed possible without right-clicking (most essential feature I'd say). Word has many of these, at least translating and selecting similarly formatted text seemed to only be accessible via right-clicking. Browsers naturally demand contextual menus, even Safari does, so they are not the best example. Windows itself is filled with contextual-menu orientated functionalities, for example all of the Start-menu options you get with right-clicking are not available anywhere else. How about editing the toolbars or any items in them? Tiling and cascading windows? Accessing all options from the little icons next to the clock (app specific of course)? How do I create shortcuts of items on the desktop, or check their properties (ie My Computer or Recycle Bin)? Pinning things to the Start menu?

I'm not sure these examples will satisfy you, but there are plenty more if you look for them. I have tested using Windows with a one-button mouse and it was not a pleasant experience. The OS seems crippled and that's because developers cut corners with contextual menus.

I want to stress that the majority of problems occur with 3rd party apps. This is because they assume everyone is using a two-button mouse. In fact, everyone on Windows is — but this does not make it good GUI design.

You are absolutely correct that Apple has broken their guidelines themselves. It's pathetic. Think about the addition to the GUI guidelines about metal being appropriate if there is a sidebar available in the application.

 

[Tinhead]

And what is the difference between clicking the menu bar to explore and right clicking to do the same? I mean, I know pc users that don't right click. Do they still acheive results? Yes. Are they missing shortcuts and features? Yes. Who is at the loss here? The user. One can't assume that a user would not figure out right clicking, any more than one can assume that a user WILL explore the menu bar, and know all the available options. It all boils down to learning how to use your computer and the applications on it. Doesnt matter where the buttons located, or what it is, if you can't or won't learn it, it does'nt matter what menu it shows up in.

I don't honestly believe it makes a bit of difference whether said menu is brought up with a right click or a left click. Explain to me how this changes anything?

It's about making easy-to-use and usable apps. Ones that require as little learning as possible. If you had ever made a usability test you would know that it does make a difference if you have to right-click around or access a menu (not contextual one) that is always visible. We all are expert users but the majority of the human race isn't. There more people who have never used a computer than there are people who do. Feel free to use a two-button mouse with OS X — but don't expect others to learn about contextual menus just because it's your preference to use them.

When it comes to input devices, the less buttons you have the simpler it is for the user. Hiding commands behind contextual menus is the easy way out. They should be there for shortcuts for people who are comfortable with them, not relied on as the main input method in apps (for commands that is). This is also important with touch screens and pens, for example, where you can't really "right-click".

EDIT: you said it yourself: "Who is at loss here? The user." I think that pretty much sums it up.