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raggedjimmi said:
Why do people associate Windows with 2 button mice? i got an Amiga when i was just 5 years old, 1991 the date was. we had 2 mice, both sporting TWO buttons.

im not fully educated on late 80's/early 90's computers but my guess is that 2 button mice came out on Amiga and Windows/DOS/whatever at roughly the same time.

2 button mice will be a good venture for Apple. possibly help switch more people.

Yeah, I had an amiga too :) just before my first mac... and then (even on windows) there were no contextual menus, so the 2nd button was even more useless... I remember in the amiga you used the right button for the regular menu bar... quite pointless...
 
thenk yew, thenk yew

jjmaximum said:
You guys rock!!!

All of this is truly silly, you know? Back at my job, we once had to work with a custom DOS program to make our captions and subtitles. All keyboard commands, yuck. Then we switched to... Windows. Boo. But anyway, things were in that (almost) GUI of Windows. I also was given one of those strange, two-button mice.

So... what I had to do every day was watch movies, and place the subtitles on a time code and type out what the actor had said. The Windows part was great in that we could use DiVx files, not 3/4" tapes, and watch our titles on the actual image, for placement and so on.

This is like film editing, though. Know what kind of mouse an editor uses? A custom keyboard. Colored keys with all kinds of meaning only for that program. Way faster than any general interface ever.

At first, I used the mouse to place the cursor, and stuff like that. Then an editor used macros to make up a set of basic commands. But that broke every time the programmer made another version, so he hard-coded some commands into the program and we tossed the macro program.

The goal, in uses like this, is to work ALL on the keyboard. Otherwise, you get to a point, you have to find the mouse, use it, find the keyboard again, and go on. But once you've got all the typing, and all the basic commands, on the keyboard, you can really fly. Productivity went up maybe 20%, once people mastered the simple commands on the number pad, which for this program, had been reassigned to commands like, "back up ten seconds and start playing with the titles I just laid in," or "save this title, and make a new one, putting a time code at the instant I pressed the command, and stop the film." Three or four mouse-clicks became "Alt-8 [number pad]."

What I'm trying to say is, it all depends. The Mac has been designed as a one-button environment on a general level. If our subtitle program was on the Mac, what you'd want most is a way to do it all quickly from the keyboard. Screw all mice, they slow you down in that context. Other programs have different rules.

I like it, in general, that the Mac can be run from the Menu (and check out Tiger, and how much the menus can be controlled from the keyboard, or the voice--!), and you can also use keyboard shortcuts if you like that, or yes, you can right-click -- though, really, you would have to use a two-button mouse on the Mac with a certain macro capability, so that Windows users could find familiar commands with their right-clicks and all that apostasy.

The Mac isn't a one- or two-button world. It's all for the user. It should be about users controlling things the way they want.
 
adamfilip said:
i dont understand why there are already more then 400 posts regarding the apple mouse.

whats the big deal.
You've never seen any thread not on this topic devolve into a thread about this topic? There have been dozens. The question of one button vs. more than one button mousing is the third rail in the Mac community.

MacWhispers said:
Don't be scared. We're sitting on a gorgeous one-button mouse design that I will take to production the moment Apple ceases manufacture of theirs.

Jack, CEO
DVForge, Inc.
Now that's a scary prospect. I suppose not everyone's aware of what went down on the YourMacLife forums. Anyway by that statement I think you just scared Apple into never abandoning production of their one-button mouse. Maybe one of your websites will give a negative review of Apple's mouse and another one of your sites will praise the MacMice product. Anyway, care to sell me some furniture?
 
Im glad Apple is finally making a two button mouse. What I really can't stand about most one button mice is that they don't have scroll wheels. The second button is nice, but the scroll wheel is the feature that is most important to me.
 
jettredmont said:
taking Expose from the buttons farthest from your left hand to the ones directly under your right thumb (obviously, this only applies to the right-handed majority; are F9-11 less of a pain for lefties to hit while mousing?) Showcase the greatest thing about OS X! Maybe even default the buttons setup to enable Expose and Widgets via the buttons.

Exposé is only real fun with hot corners.
 
"Command" key right click?

Ummm ... guys. I've read through four pages and keep seeing people saying they use the command key to right click ... While I certainly know which is the "command" key (and I likewise refer to it as the Apple key most often because I deal a lot with people who are new to Macs and an apple is pretty easy to pick out on the keyboard...), I have to say that I don't think that it will ever bring up a context menu. I believe you are thinking of the "Control" or "ctrl" key, two keys to the left/right of the command key.

Just find it funny how people are so violently debating the utility of the command-click option when the command-click option does ... well, pretty much nothing!
 
Artful Dodger said:
asphalt-proof

I agree but many, even that one, doesn't work for someone left handed so a nice two button mouse would be welcome ;)

Unfortunately, you lefties are left with "basic" (2-button+scroll wheel) mice or IMHO poorly-designed "ambidextrous" mice like the MS offering (which has way too large, way too sensitive thumb buttons that get clicked accidentally when someone not accustomed to the mouse moves the mouse left/right).

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=004

Are there any mice specialty shops out there making "leftie" mice? I mean, mice that are as comfortable for use in the left hand as most "rightie" mice are for use in the right hand?

I would hope so ... I know the market for leftie mice is greater than the general leftie population, as it also includes a good number of people with RSD in their right wrist from using mice in that hand for too many years (I've known two people in my career who use their mice left-handed for this reason ... oddly enough, I can't think of any true left-handed programmers that I've run across!)
 
Squire said:
You must have seriously misunderstood me. I was simply saying that, nowadays, if one wants to read the entire thread AND comment on other posts, it's a time-consuming process. Add a full-time job and 15+ hour time difference to the mix and it's easy to get behind in my reading. It was a statement on the number of users here at MacRumors. Nothing more. Nothing less. (I should have been clearer, I guess.) And, by the way, I was actually agreeing with you. Why sell a $499 product and let the consumer walk down the street and pay $499 more for a monitor, mouse, and keyboard? Squire

Alrightie! :) Sorry about the misunderstanding there on my part! ;)
 
~loserman~ said:
I agree.

All I can say about it is ITS ABOUT TIME.

I am so tired of having to replace the dang mouse as soon as I get a Mac it just makes me sick.

Do you people buy a new mouse with every new computer, or just move your old ultra-super-duper-256-button-trackball-mouse from your old computer to the new one?

Seems odd to be buying a new mouse with every computer you buy ... which is also why it would seem odd to have super-deluxe mice included with new computers, as I can't remember the last time I used a mouse that came with any computer I bought (Windows and Macs combined).

Personally, I buy a new mouse when the old one goes belly up (rarely, but not unheard of, especially with Microsoft mice the last couple of years), or when technolust gets the better of me and I have to get a shiny new thing to put in my grubby palm. Neither of those tends to coincide with getting a new machine.
 
hob said:
I was mulling over this thread, then picked up my bluetooth-phone and changed the track playing on my PowerBook hooked up to my stereo (using Salling Clicker), when I suddenly had a thought...!

What if they combined remote-functionality with bluetooth mouse functionality.

This would be a blob like the current mouse with no visible buttons on it... Then very subtlety-lit areas, which lit up when appropriate. So you could have one-button mode where it would be the same as now, but react to touch... Two button where two areas are touch sensitive etc. etc. (this would also work with a touch-sensitive scroll wheel)...

Ick. First of all, lcd or otherwise, remote controls which use this kind of flexible interface are unbearably hard to use by touch. Yeah, sometimes its the only solution for a massive home theater setup, but its certainly not an optimal solution. You need dedicated buttons, both because your fingers can "find" dedicated buttons without accidentally pushing other buttons, and because they allow you to orient your hand properly on the device so that the same muscle movement always hits the same button.

Touch-sensitive fluid displays look cool and make for great demos, but are an abhorrent human interface. Unless you stare at your hand while clicking a mouse, which seems the exact opposite of the idea of a mouse, that just wouldn't work!
 
mvc said:
Wild futurist projection.....Haptics (e.g hand gesture recognition) and voice control will rule in 2020. We will be talking to our computer in most cases rather than using a keyboard, as it will be faster unless you are a mega typist.


Doubtful on the voice control, imho. That requires way too many system resources. Plus, it would be impractical in an office setting with everyone talking to their computers. It would turn every office into a call center. Sure, that wouldn't matter if the vast majority of people were telecommuniting to work, but then again, corporations will frown on that because it takes away a certain degree of control in terms of monitoring what their employees are doing. It would be very hard to pass legislation that would allow companies to snoop on computers owned by an employee off-site.

Gesturing will happen, but it will mainly apply to videogames. The first application of that would be interpreting the frequency and duration of using the *fire* button. Actually, to a certain degree, that's already been implemented.

I would like to see voice control happen, but I don't think its really that practical. Plus, a lot of implementation has to do with which company controls the patent portfolio. The last time I checked, the former owners of Dragon Systems were still fighting to get back all their IP from the bankruptcy of that one Euro company that tried to corner the entire voice recognition market.
 
manu chao said:
Exposé is only real fun with hot corners.

Agreed!

I use bottom-right corner for All Windows and bottom-left corner for Desktop. I can't even remember the DOS-like F-keys.

Only with hot corners is dragging between windows (into Exposé -> onto mini window -> pause -> drop) a fluid and seamless operation.

I don't know why Apple doesn't emphasize this more? F-keys are really so un-Mac-like.

I think I'll be using top-right corner to activate Dashboard when Tiger comes...
 
chimerical said:
"Afraid of change"? I could reverse the argument and say that Windows users are afraid of changing and trying to get used to a one-button mouse. More isn't necessarily better. There's nothing wrong with trying to keep things simple.


The PC world doesn't want to switch to a single mouse button because a single mouse button is generally considered idiotic in today's world. The advent of the world wide web and the scroll wheel pretty much doomed a single mouse button to oblivion, and its only been Jobs' stubborn determination to keep it that has kept it alive on the Mac platform.

I am a heavy websurfer. To me, one button is impractical. When I'm reading, I don't need to have my hand on my keyboard. The idea of pressing the "control" button on the keyboard along with a single mouse click to me is simply retarded. Right clicking is great to open up pages in FireFox (or Safari) separate tabs. I've already mentioned the necessity of the scroll wheel.

I've had my own computer since my Atari ST back in 86. We (just like the Amiga) had TWO mouse buttons. Even back then, the single mouse button seemed idiotic to us. The same goes for the Macintosh (and later, the NeXT Cube) having a monochrome screen. The whole world (with the exception of color-blind folk) is seen in color. You single button fans might as well opt back to using monochrome screens or 3.5" discs. Its the same argument.
Decisions like these are part of the reason why Macs are only 3% (or 5%) of the entire computer market. Even hardcore techies on Slashdot often bash the Macs due to the single mouse button.
 
well that's well hidden for sure ... thanks for that...
the apple menu bar always reminds me of my school time back in the days when we were writing Qbasic programms in that editor under win 3.11 and you always had to use ALT to access the menu bar etc. is there a way to access the menubar with a keyboard shortcut ? (like ALT in windows ?) so far i'm trying all different combos of command/control/shift/option/tab/escape and function keys

Apple implimented something like that in Tiger. The combination is HORRIBLE. I believe it was something like command-control-option-F1 or something. You should be able to find it under the accessibility options in the System Preferences.
 
auxplage said:
If one does not buy a Mac because of one-button mouse, then I do not think he should even own a Mac; if he is too short sided to see pass a simple input device, then that is his problem to miss out on a great OS.



No its not. The single button mouse makes the entire Mac platform look bad in the eyes of many. Drop your Mac elitism for a change. Do you really want yahoos to waste their money on Microsoft products when the same people could be strengthening the Mac platform by buying Apple products if Apple would just ditch a dopey decision that is 20 years obsolete? Henry Ford's stubborn insistence on all his Model-T cars being painted black led to the success of General Motors because shockingly, consumers wanted a choice in car colors. Sure, they could've painted their Model-T a different color after they bought it, but that stubbornness tainted the brand's perception, just as the single mouse button does for Apple today.
 
Lacero said:
I think the rumored tactic of shipping a two-button mouse as an option is fine, but I don't ever want to see Apple ship a mouse with more than one button with the computers, for one simple reason.


I'd rather that Apple and all computer manufacturers stopped shipping mice and keyboards standard with their machines. Cut some costs and put some other features into the machines. Let the consumer decide what type of mouse or keyboard they want to use. That's perhaps the best legacy the Mac Mini could bestow upon the industry, just as the original iMac ushered in actual usage of USB ports which were stillborn on the PC side of things.
 
jayeskreezy said:
that's great...too bad I already purchased a two button one though from another vendor...mac took too long....two is better than one when it comes to buttons on a mouse....i think it's a great idea if they really want to compete with windows.... the one button mouse is stupid for most people coming from the two


See, the point is Apple should be capturing this money. If people didn't have to buy non-Apple mice, they could spend the same amount of money on other Apple items. Why give that money to other companies like Microsoft or Logitech? Its just like how Apple is in terms of PCI based Firewire cards. Why does Apple let Belkin and Adaptec get all that action? They should market Apple branded Firewire cards to PC users. Zoroaster knows, they could sell a fortune of them to PC modders if they shipped them in the Apple "white" color. The same goes for Wifi. They should sell "Airport" branded wifi cards. The more items PC owners buy of Apple, the more they'll start to think about actually purchasing an Apple computer the next time.
 
raggedjimmi said:
Why do people associate Windows with 2 button mice? i got an Amiga when i was just 5 years old, 1991 the date was. we had 2 mice, both sporting TWO buttons.im not fully educated on late 80's/early 90's computers but my guess is that 2 button mice came out on Amiga and Windows/DOS/whatever at roughly the same time.2 button mice will be a good venture for Apple. possibly help switch more people.



Both the Atari ST and the Commodore Amiga debuted in January 1985 at the Consumer Electronics Show. Both featured two button mice. So as of January 2005, Apple's mouse design has been 20 years obsolete. Then again, maybe a two button mouse design would ruin Apple's profit margins. :)
 
I wonder how many people are really reading the posts in this thread before posting...

It's funny all the name calling towards people that like and use a one button mouse. Says a lot about you, people...

Also, someone tell me what did you do in the Atari ST or the Amiga with the second button, because the only good thing about a second button is the context menu which didn't exist back then... "Yeah, I have two buttons one to click on some areas of the screen and the other to click on this other area of the screen called menu bar" So clever....

I'm tired of this thread... there have been some wonderful posts about the reason behind the one button mouse, and also some great information about key shortcuts... But all this insulting is pointless...

I just hope Apple knows where to stop adapting its platform to get more lazy switchers...
 
hayesk said:
That's a bit selfish, don't you think. Because you had a hard time, everyone should? That's why the Mac was invented in the first place. People want an easier time to learn a computer. That's one of the biggest reasons for buying a Mac instead of a PC!

Not selfish at all, and I most definitely did not have a "hard Time". Just that I was expected to learn the features of what I used. I don't believe that this can be avoided, nor that it should, or can. There will always be a learning curve, and the addition of one more button is not going to make any difference. Especially for the new user, as he won't know ANY other way.
 
Personal Choice

iGary said:
Two-button mice are for Windoze peeps.


*ducks incoming fire*

I thought the Mac was about choice. To me that means if you like a 1-button mouse, the next person likes a multi-button ouse, the next a scroll-wheel
mouse, & I like a multi-buton, scroll ring trackball, with as large of a ball as possible. To me that doesn't make you, the next person or me wrong. That to me just means we are all dedicated Mac users that use a Mac because it is our choice & we use the pointing device that we do because we make the choice.

According to the current numbers in the survey 1-button mouse users are 25% of the total, multi-button scroll wheel mouse is over half of the users, & those like me that use a trackball are only about 5% of the users. Does that make you or me wrong? Or are we just different?

Bill the track-ball using Mac User
 
Two button mouse is on the way. Any chance of a scroll wheel?

Powerbooks finally have a scrolling trackpad.

Seriously, I know it's iconic and whatever else, but Apple is really behind on some of these really, really obvious things.

Now I'm crossing my fingers the next iBook (when the hell is it coming, anyway? with tiger?) has at least the scrolling trackpad.
 
Just one more piece of information (in case anyone doesn't know): open the system preferences and choose Keyboard and mouse. There's a tab called keyboard shortcuts. If you click on Add (a + sign) you can then choose your favorite app and add your custom keyboard shortcut for any option in the menu.

So apps that follow Apples guidelines should be easy to use like this, but apps that rely too much on contextual menus (or right clicks) won't...

There is a REAL reason for the 1 button as standard.
 
Believe it when I see it...

If Apple only releases a two-button mouse (without a scroll-wheel) it will be as outmoded as the single-button mouse the day it comes out. It'll then take another 22 years to add a scroll-wheel. :rolleyes:

I know folks love (for reasons I don't understand) the one-button mouse, but if Apple wants to seriously lure PC switchers it makes good sense. Die-hard Windows users have no clue what to do with a one-button mouse - there's a perceived loss of functionality, and a strike in the "maybe not" column for purchasing a Mini or iMac.

It would be nice if a two-button, scroll-wheel mouse was even available as a BTO from Apple, in much the same way as the Bluetooth keyboard/mouse set. Heck, I'd even be willing to pay an additional $5-10 for one (on top of Apple's exhorbitant prices for keyboards and mice) as a BTO.
 
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