Apple debuting two-button mouse?

[mpw]

…for example my instant messenger Miranda IM is heavily dependent on right-clicking. You lose essential functions if you don't. Thankfully, sending messages is indeed possible without right-clicking (most essential feature I'd say). Word has many of these, at least translating and selecting similarly formatted text seemed to only be accessible via right-clicking...

I’ve never used (or heard of) Miranda but it appears to be freeware. I would not necessarily expect perfection from freeware.

Both of those Word function can be achieved through the menu bar or keyboard short-cuts. To translate single left click ‘tools’ and move cursor to ‘translate’ single left click again same number of clicks and potentially more mouse movement as right clicking. Alternatively use the keyboard short cut Alt+t – L – A (a helpful feature of windows is the underscore of the shortcut letter you need)

To select similar text you use the format menu and reveal formatting which opens a separate pane.

 

[mpw]

It's about making easy-to-use and usable apps. Ones that require as little learning as possible. If you had ever made a usability test you would know that it does make a difference if you have to right-click around or access a menu (not contextual one) that is always visible. We all are expert users but the majority of the human race isn't. There more people who have never used a computer than there are people who do. Feel free to use a two-button mouse with OS X — but don't expect others to learn about contextual menus just because it's your preference to use them.

When it comes to input devices, the less buttons you have the simpler it is for the user. Hiding commands behind contextual menus is the easy way out. They should be there for shortcuts for people who are comfortable with them, not relied on as the main input method in apps (for commands that is). This is also important with touch screens and pens, for example, where you can't really "right-click".

EDIT: you said it yourself: "Who is at loss here? The user." I think that pretty much sums it up.

As displayed in my last post it would seem you’ve overlooked the first two commands you used as examples. Probably best not to preach how difficult it is to use contextual menus when you don’t use the menu bar yourself.

The person who wrote Word had people like you in mind when he put translate on the right click button, he knew you’d find it there before you looked on a menu!

 

[lazyrighteye]

Finger Envy

Has anyone even stopped to consider the potential that the middle finger may slide into a deep depression as it sits there, virtually useless... seeing sparse action (at best) watching the index finger have all the fun? I mean, sure, he gets all the action when someone cuts you off in traffic... but with a single button, the index and middle finger act as a team. And I, for one, do not want to disrupt that relationship. Who knows what that might lead to?

Wow, 18 pages on this rumor... unreal.

 

[Tinhead]

I’ve never used (or heard of) Miranda but it appears to be freeware. I would not necessarily expect perfection from freeware.

Both of those Word function can be achieved through the menu bar or keyboard short-cuts. To translate single left click ‘tools’ and move cursor to ‘translate’ single left click again same number of clicks and potentially more mouse movement as right clicking. Alternatively use the keyboard short cut Alt+t – L – A (a helpful feature of windows is the underscore of the shortcut letter you need)

To select similar text you use the format menu and reveal formatting which opens a separate pane.

We must be using a different version of Word then, because my Tools menu does not have translation options. As for the second example, the formatting pane presents a similar option to what was achieved with right-clicking but not the same.

Yes Miranda is freeware, but I fail to understand why I should not expect much from freeware. The freeware software on OS X works perfectly well without CTRL-clicking.

 

[GrannySmith_G5]

New Mouse coming. Freakin Awesome Dude!

Only 18 pages of posts so far? This is a NEW MOUSE here folks, come on, where is the excitement? Jeez, you people will probably only rack up a dozen pages when their new mouse PAD is revealed in may.

 

[SPUY767]

This mouse will do little. . .

. . .Except for give all mouse makers in the PC world something else to copy. Take a good look at this mouse when it's released, b/c every PC mouse from here out will look like it.

 

[Tinhead]

As displayed in my last post it would seem you’ve overlooked the first two commands you used as examples. Probably best not to preach how difficult it is to use contextual menus when you don’t use the menu bar yourself.

The person who wrote Word had people like you in mind when he put translate on the right click button, he knew you’d find it there before you looked on a menu!

I indeed do use the menus extensively, thank you very much. I do stand behind my words that there are right-click-only commands in Windows (just as there are some in OS X sadly), even if I happened to overlook a command or two in one specific app. It's not like I have Windows GUI flaws written down somewhere for reference (maybe I indeed should do that).

In any case, the extensive use of contextual menus in Windows sends the wrong messages to developers — that they can just put commands there and be done with it. If Apple starts shipping multi-button mice as default Mac devs will inevitably take the same route. Small 3rd party apps, freeware and shareware, are much inferior in usability on Windows than on OS X, and HCI and GUI guidelines alone won't prevent devs from doing the same mistakes on their OS X apps. These points were already established several times before.

If you don't believe that this would indeed be the case, then fine, you have your right to think so. Personally, I have nothing against dual-button mice but I don't want OS X to lose its fundamental GUI superiority because of them. That's not to say that OS X is perfect, but it is quite a bit better in this respect than the competition.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

 

[Swift]

Average Joe Snobs

People who are pro 1-button Apple mouse are just elitist mac snobs. (yeah, you know who you are)

People who get greatly exercised about this issue are zealots. YOU find you're more productive with a two-button mouse. You're used to it. I use a two-button mouse with windows at work, and it sucks hard (to me). To pretend that there's anything revealed by God about either plan is stupid. And having been a spat-upon Mac user for 20 years, I know the snobbery doesn't go one way. A lot of Windows people over the years have seen Mac users and said, "Gay snob! Kiddy computer!! Girl's computer!" because they have the snobbery of the great mob of "Average Joes." The kind that says, "What, you like Bach, not Heavy Metal? You must be a queer!"

I use a one-button mouse because I'm used to it. I also have a Wacom for graphics programs. My only exposure to two-button mice is my sucky Windows computer at work. If the new mouse is terrific, I may pick one up. One thing, though. I'm not going to keep feeding it with batteries.

 

[Swift]

The true Axis of Evil

Im sure whatever Apple comes out with will be cool and innovative. Regardless of the opinion regarding the number of buttons one likes on their mice, it will be cool to see what Apple comes up with...

Face it, all this talk about mice is a subterfuge. The truly evil interface thingy is... the trackpad! Who can use those clunky, stupid things? Am I alone to find them unresponsive, annoying, and in many operations, a true Device from Hell? Just trolling.

 

[iriejedi]

Support the Mothership

This is key for Apple cause I'm tired of giving my $20 to $50 to Microsoft or HP or others - I want to give all my money to Stevie! So I need an Apple mouse to help fuel the mothership - but my pride was worth less than the extra button and scroll wheel - so here Billl, here's another $30 for the MS empire.....

Well, yes, "real" computers had three button mice decades ago. But... I'd consider a two-button scrolling mouse to be a good first step.

Ah, religious wars... gotta love them!

Best thing about this, if true, is that Mac users will get to use the Apple mouse of their choice - they won't be dropping the one button mice.

 

[slffl]

My personal setup: Button 4 as "Expose All Apps", Btn 5 as "Expose Current App", Ctrl+Btn 5 as "Expose Desktop".

'Course, once you get used to that on your mouse, moving to a one-button trackpad is an absolute killer ... you also need to get SideTrack so you can set the top corners to Btn 4/Btn 5, but then those get accidentally triggered about as often as the side buttons on the ambidextrous MS mouse ...

Man, why do people need so many buttons? Have you ever used the hot corners to control expose? Works perfectly IMO.

Once again, DO NOT PUT 2 BUTTONS on the laptops Apple!

 

[iriejedi]

New Pad!

Well - I did not know about the new mouse pad.... I guess I'll hold off buying the new mouse until Apple sets up a combo package!!!!!!

I WANT IT ALL!

Only 18 pages of posts so far? This is a NEW MOUSE here folks, come on, where is the excitement? Jeez, you people will probably only rack up a dozen pages when their new mouse PAD is revealed in may.

 

[iriejedi]

Middle Finger Exersise

Has anyone even stopped to consider the potential that the middle finger may slide into a deep depression as it sits there, virtually useless... seeing sparse action (at best) watching the index finger have all the fun? I mean, sure, he gets all the action when someone cuts you off in traffic... but with a single button, the index and middle finger act as a team. And I, for one, do not want to disrupt that relationship. Who knows what that might lead to?

Wow, 18 pages on this rumor... unreal.

Always remember to pause and stretch you hands when doing intensive work on computer.... use the middle finger to salute Billy G every 15 minutes or so!

 

[BillHarrison]

It's about making easy-to-use and usable apps. Ones that require as little learning as possible. If you had ever made a usability test you would know that it does make a difference if you have to right-click around or access a menu (not contextual one) that is always visible. We all are expert users but the majority of the human race isn't. There more people who have never used a computer than there are people who do. Feel free to use a two-button mouse with OS X — but don't expect others to learn about contextual menus just because it's your preference to use them.

When it comes to input devices, the less buttons you have the simpler it is for the user. Hiding commands behind contextual menus is the easy way out. They should be there for shortcuts for people who are comfortable with them, not relied on as the main input method in apps (for commands that is). This is also important with touch screens and pens, for example, where you can't really "right-click".

EDIT: you said it yourself: "Who is at loss here? The user." I think that pretty much sums it up.

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. A computer is not a "trivial" item to master. I guess being a bit old fashioned, and having cut my teeth in the computer world on DOS, I went through a learning curve, and I expect anyone wanting to use a computer to go through the same. There are over 100 keys on a keyboard, and ATLEAST one button on the mouse. You FULLY expect a user to learn what the keys do, all 100 of them, from the simple alpha-numeric keys, to the "Command" and "function" keys, that they will need to use to make further actions possible, including bringing up contextual menus. Yet, these same people according to you are somehow unable to learn what the "2nd" button on a mouse does. I really don't get how learning what "1" more button does makes much of a difference when they are learning what 100+ buttons do already.

I see part of your point, but most of it escapes me. If people REALLY are that incapable, then i find it difficult to believe they could handle most computing tasks anyways.

 

[takao]

The main menu bar is obvious. A new user knows they can click on each one and read the commands and all will be well as long as they don't select a command. It's very inviting to explore - a new user can learn the app easily this way. If there are commands only in contextual menus, new users will probably not discover them unless they are told about them. That's not very user-friendly.

Since Apple ships one button mouse, developers cannot hide commands only in contextual menus. They have to put them in the main menu bar. New users will find them.

personally i found the menu bar pretty annoying, for me as a new mac user

i found options buried in _there_ much worse than options in context menus

just look at something as simply as deleting something in different apple programm... in finder it's command+backspace in itunes it's the delete button and in iCal it's command+delete but i had to 'explore' that myself because somehow the menu on top fails to display that... and of course the adress book ...

same for the "press shift for changing the meaning of a button" in itunes...that's even worse than a context menu

or the differences in what the "close windows" button does from program to program..in iPhoto it closes the programm completly, doesn't it ?

don't get me wrong i really like the apple programs but praising it's "always the same ui" is way off...

i simply think it's a way of preference ..just like apple somehow prefers not printing "[" "]" "|" "{" and "}" on their german keyboard nor mention somewhere how to type them... i kinda sat there completly puzzled when i had to type a few unix commands lately (offtopic: is there a mac os x programm somewhere hidden where i can display the whole layout ?) apart from that i really love the apple keyboard.. i make much less errors than before ...

 

[Tinhead]

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. A computer is not a "trivial" item to master. I guess being a bit old fashioned, and having cut my teeth in the computer world on DOS, I went through a learning curve, and I expect anyone wanting to use a computer to go through the same. There are over 100 keys on a keyboard, and ATLEAST one button on the mouse. You FULLY expect a user to learn what the keys do, all 100 of them, from the simple alpha-numeric keys, to the "Command" and "function" keys, that they will need to use to make further actions possible, including bringing up contextual menus. Yet, these same people according to you are somehow unable to learn what the "2nd" button on a mouse does. I really don't get how learning what "1" more button does makes much of a difference when they are learning what 100+ buttons do already.

I see part of your point, but most of it escapes me. If people REALLY are that incapable, then i find it difficult to believe they could handle most computing tasks anyways.

OS X gives new users the easiest possible way to issue commands with the one-button mouse. This is what Apple researched in the 80's and earlier when they debuted the one-button mouse. The whole GUI revolves around that concept, that everything can be done with just one button. Sadly, there are examples that prove otherwise, but at least that seemed to be the original idea and it's still intact for the most part. Newcomers will have it easier with one button and this has been tested (Windows switchers won't, since they are used to multi-button mice, but they have the option to use their old mice with OS X).

With keyboard commands, OS X is providing expert users the possibility to issue precise and quick commands without the mouse altogether. This is the other end of the spectrum, maximum efficiency. It requires user to learn the commands, but once they do they can really issue commands rapidly. Keyboard commands are arguably faster than right-clicking, and this has also been tested.

Perhaps I wasn't clear on what I said. If so, I do apologize. I believe OS X has the fundamentals correct when it tries to enable a full set of commands in an easy-to-use fashion with the least amount of buttons possible. This is great for all humans, as humans like simple interfaces more than complex ones. If it's not enough for a specific user, he or she can always stick in any mouse they desire. Bottom line, they have the choice.

As I said, nothing against double-button mice. I like them as much as the next guy. But IF Apple makes them default, they will have abandoned their belief in simplicity and ease-of-use to some extent. A GUI built around a single mouse button is inherently simpler than one that urges you to use two (on a fundamental level). It's a great advantage of OS X, and should not be trashed. There are also obvious benefits regarding touch screens and input devices that are designed to be pointed at screens.

I hope I was clearer this time around.

EDIT: Computer are not trivial machines, true, but why should they not be designed to be as simple to use and humane as possible? Isn't that what Macintoshes are all about? Perhaps times are changing.

 

[d.perel]

Throughout apple's history the one-button mouse must have been a factor leading to many keyboard shortcuts, exposé, and probably other innovations like NOT needing a second button (for the most part.) Still, a ipod based scroll-wheel, 1 button mouse would be col

 

[MontyZ]

I used a two-button mouse with a scrollwheel on my old OS9 Mac, and now I use an Apple wireless one-button mouse with my new Mac/OSX. It took a few days to get used to it, but, I don't really miss the two-button mouse. OSX is optimized so nicely, the use of the second mouse button isn't really needed most of the time. Windows NEEDS the second-button because of the maze of menus and dialog boxes to get to the feature you want.

However, if Apple made a nice wireless, two-button mouse with a scrollwheel, I'd probably get one eventually, mostly for the scrollwheel. It's handy for scrolling through web pages and documents.

 

[hayesk]

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. A computer is not a "trivial" item to master. I guess being a bit old fashioned, and having cut my teeth in the computer world on DOS, I went through a learning curve, and I expect anyone wanting to use a computer to go through the same.

That's a bit selfish, don't you think. Because you had a hard time, everyone should? That's why the Mac was invented in the first place. People want an easier time to learn a computer. That's one of the biggest reasons for buying a Mac instead of a PC!

 

[hayesk]

personally i found the menu bar pretty annoying, for me as a new mac user

i found options buried in _there_ much worse than options in context menus

Yes, but you are not speaking as a new computer user. When switching platforms, there is always a period of adjustment that includes frustration.

just look at something as simply as deleting something in different apple programm... in finder it's command+backspace in itunes it's the delete button and in iCal it's command+delete but i had to 'explore' that myself because somehow the menu on top fails to display that... and of course the adress book ...

That's got nothing to do with the menubar itself, but everything to do with consistency of implentation. You should send feedback to Apple about that. Seriously - it's a legitimate beef, but not a legitimate complaint about having a menu bar.

same for the "press shift for changing the meaning of a button" in itunes...that's even worse than a context menu

I'm not sure what you are talking about here, but I like how the rotate button changes direction in iPhoto when you hold down option. The button updates too so you can see the functionality has changed.

or the differences in what the "close windows" button does from program to program..in iPhoto it closes the programm completly, doesn't it ?

No, it doesn't, at least in iPhoto 4, I don't think. Close window will (should) only close an app if it only ever uses one window and needs that window open to be functional. iPhoto can have many windows open and you can do somethings without having the window open. Hence the app should not quit the program. System Preferences or Calculator, on the other hand, has all of their functionality in one window. If you close the window, there's nothing else you can do with the app, hence, it quits.

don't get me wrong i really like the apple programs but praising it's "always the same ui" is way off...

I disagree that it's way off, but I agree they have made mistakes. You should report every inconsistency you find to Apple. They should practice what they preach. But again, it has nothing to do with the UI concepts here.

i simply think it's a way of preference ..just like apple somehow prefers not printing "[" "]" "|" "{" and "}" on their german keyboard nor mention somewhere how to type them... i kinda sat there completly puzzled when i had to type a few unix commands lately (offtopic: is there a mac os x programm somewhere hidden where i can display the whole layout ?) apart from that i really love the apple keyboard.. i make much less errors than before ...

Yes. Open the "International" System Prefs, choose "show keyboard layout menu" and then choose "show layout in menu". (or something like that) Then in the menu (it looks like a little flag), you can bring up a Keycaps style app that shows the keys that change as you press the modifiers. I agree, that feature is buried. It should be Keycaps in the Utilities menu like it used to me.

Also remember, nobody here is advocating the removal of contextual menus, just that they be used only as shortcuts and the functionality should be easily accessed elsewhere.

 

[Swift]

How do I attach a Folder Action to a folder on my desktop without using right/ctrl click?

Control-click.

 

[wnurse]

I agree with you. It's almost a unique "feature" of a Mac. It would be kind of weird to have a Mac mouse with two buttons. But still, it may get more people to somehow switch.

Daniel

I prefer a two or three button mouse. It's second nature for me to operate a two button mouse. I don't even think about it and i am a mac user (I work at a company as a windows developer so i am forced to use windows) but i love two button mouses and scroll wheels. I cannot fanthom how ctrl-click is supposed to be easier than two buttons. I have a one button bluetooth mouse for my mac at home. If you love one button mice so badly, maybe you would be interested in buying mine after apple comes out with their two button model. I'll sell it to you at a fair price.

 

[maka]

C'mon, There's going to be a different story for each computer user in the world. We all have our way of working and our preferences, some like 1 button, some 2, 3 or 10, so what? The problem I see is a failure to understand WHY Apple uses a 1 button mouse as standard. There have been some very good posts about that, so I'll not repeat anything again...

 

[0098386]

Why do people associate Windows with 2 button mice? i got an Amiga when i was just 5 years old, 1991 the date was. we had 2 mice, both sporting TWO buttons.

im not fully educated on late 80's/early 90's computers but my guess is that 2 button mice came out on Amiga and Windows/DOS/whatever at roughly the same time.

2 button mice will be a good venture for Apple. possibly help switch more people.

 

[takao]

Yes, but you are not speaking as a new computer user. When switching platforms, there is always a period of adjustment that includes frustration.

well on apple it's so far the longest for me heck even some linux window managers seemed more straight forward sometimes

That's got nothing to do with the menubar itself, but everything to do with consistency of implentation. You should send feedback to Apple about that. Seriously - it's a legitimate beef, but not a legitimate complaint about having a menu bar.

well it just shows that you _have_ to use the menu bar for even simple things (like deleting etc.) in some programs ... it's rather easy to discover which programs aren't really that popular (adressbook,iCal for example)

I'm not sure what you are talking about here, but I like how the rotate button changes direction in iPhoto when you hold down option. The button updates too so you can see the functionality has changed.

yeah thats what i meant...looks like it is the option key under apple instead shift (..or was it control?) like under the win itunes version.... while a nice feature

No, it doesn't, at least in iPhoto 4, I don't think. Close window will (should) only close an app if it only ever uses one window and needs that window open to be functional. iPhoto can have many windows open and you can do somethings without having the window open. Hence the app should not quit the program. System Preferences or Calculator, on the other hand, has all of their functionality in one window. If you close the window, there's nothing else you can do with the app, hence, it quits.

don't know about iPhoto 4 ..i installed 5 right away and yes it clsoes the app when clicking the red dot ... so far only the yellow dot seems to be used consistencly by all apps

I disagree that it's way off, but I agree they have made mistakes. You should report every inconsistency you find to Apple. They should practice what they preach. But again, it has nothing to do with the UI concepts here.

well i never really used those menus bars (windows linux etc.) unless i really had to ... so i find it rather exhausting in mac os because in alot of cases you _have_ to use it ... like in the adress book for example

Yes. Open the "International" System Prefs, choose "show keyboard layout menu" and then choose "show layout in menu". (or something like that) Then in the menu (it looks like a little flag), you can bring up a Keycaps style app that shows the keys that change as you press the modifiers. I agree, that feature is buried. It should be Keycaps in the Utilities menu like it used to me.

well that's well hidden for sure ... thanks for that...
the apple menu bar always reminds me of my school time back in the days when we were writing Qbasic programms in that editor under win 3.11 and you always had to use ALT to access the menu bar etc. is there a way to access the menubar with a keyboard shortcut ? (like ALT in windows ?) so far i'm trying all different combos of command/control/shift/option/tab/escape and function keys

Also remember, nobody here is advocating the removal of contextual menus, just that they be used only as shortcuts and the functionality should be easily accessed elsewhere.

as long as that "easily accessed elsewhere" doesn't mean long menu-bar-pulldowns ... i personnally experience such things as archaic and as the completed oposite of being userfriendly... if i got 10 cent for every time i had to crawl through lots of pull menues for the right option in a program _for somebody else_ ("can you please help me i can't find xyz") then i would perhaps be out there buying myself a nintendo DS