Apple Denied Request to Ban Tax Protestors From Its Stores in France

[RobertMartens]

It is vandalism. Let me go paint all over your car windows and your house windows and see how you like it. Even if it can be washed off easily it is still vandalism. You shouldn't touch or deface anything that does not belong to you. If you paint on my windows you will be sued I can assure you that I will win as well.

I'm guessing you don't live in France.

 

[TheJae]

Not relevant, fact is you have freedom of speech in Europe, glad the judge denied Apple's request.

Judge's judgement was clouded and they completely ignored the fact of vandalism and causing loss of business in grander scheme of morality.

 

[Stella]

I’d really like to believe they are trolling... I wish they were!!

Unfortunately I think a good number of them actually believe the flat earth **** they read... :/

To be honest, I think most of them are just trolling.

For about £20,000 you can book a cruise that takes you once around the world. Probably the nicest way to convince yourself the earth is round. Now that leaves the possibility that the earth is a cylinder and you fall off once you reach the North Pole or the South Pole... That's the real danger of global warming. If the ice at the poles melts away, then the oceans will empty themselves and we are all in real deep ****...

 

[simonmet]

Apple CEO Tim Cook equated to Darth Sidious via Sol Trumbo Vila?​

This is just gold!

 

[AZ63]

Really? Where? Who claims the earth is flat in 2018?

Check it out
flatearthsociety.org
You will be amazed.

 

[Bacillus]

I'm not sure I understand your analogy. Stealing is a clear violation of the the law in every country and culture. There is nothing illegal about trying to engineer the most favorable tax bill. True, that attempt may be later found to fall on the wrong side of the law, but it's rare that a high profile company intentionally tries to break the law. There is no point to that. It's not like they can go under the radar like individuals that don't even bother to file taxes do.

It is the same rationale as cooky stealing kids: they didn't know what/that they had to pay, pay already so much, didn't know about multiple regulations applying, they wanted to pay but didn't know how much, they thought they had their own deal but didn't know that was illegal.
Angela Ahrendts never asked for an outrageous salary - which for the public should imply that she deserves it. Well, nobody asked for Angela and her luxurist boutique tenure only to increase prices.
They expect the public to be imbeciles so they can get away with egoism, reckless thievery, and financial acrobatics while others clean their poo
Better get rid of these off-the-chart, overcapitalist zealots and start making decent computers again.
Steve gave them the company asking them to stay hungry, lean and mean, not fat and narcist

 

[Wanted797]

Not in France I don’t think so? They are experts in protesting, in fact it plays a big part in the way they get things done, at the expense of others. Still more power to the people I guess, in the UK we managed to try and force the ridiculous price of petrol and diesel down with protests, and the government then made them illegal, that’s our democracy for you.... so we now have stupid priced fuel, and no one is allowed to protest or you’ll be arrested.

Would actually be interested to know what your fuel prices are? I'm in Australia and get the odd feeling it's going to be more expensive here.

 

[draugminaion]

If the law was clear that Apple has to pay more taxes, then Apple would get a higher tax bill, and Apple would pay more taxes.

Also, if the law was clear, Ireland wouldn't have asked and been granted an appeal.

The EU has no say over the tax code of the member states. Except where it conflicts with other rules.
Like rules for competition. The EU thinks there is a conflict, Ireland thinks there isn't. An appeals court will have to decide.

Meanwhile, the EU has the biggest stick, and money needs to be transferred, from Apple who thinks it belongs to the shareholders and the IRS, to Ireland who doesn't want it because they will need to return it after the appeal.

 

[bsolar]

Ireland entering into the deal with Apple only became an issue when Brussels needed revenue.

This is incorrect. The issue with the dealing was originally highlighted in the US by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. That’s where the special deal was first examined and brought to light as special taxation deal.

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcom...rofit-shifting-and-tax-avoidance-by-apple-inc

The EU investigation was started later, likely also inspired by the US subcommittee findings.

The Nation States within the EU require more autonomy if it is to survive.

I agree with this, but in the specific case of state aids I consider the EU regulations correct. The alternative is governments being allowed to pick companies and give them unfair advantages to all others.
[doublepost=1519550273][/doublepost]

Judge's judgement was clouded and they completely ignored the fact of vandalism and causing loss of business in grander scheme of morality.

Morality had nothing to do with the decision. Judge highlighted the ridiculously inadequate evidence presented by Apple: it’s simply a case of a lawyer not doing his work well and jeopardizing his client’s chance of prevailing.

 

[LinusR]

Apparently it is above your head.

Nice patronising deflection there, I conclude, as you are still left to provide evidence, you have blatantly lied.

 

[Timur]

Keep some perspective. The whole case was about protests "all over the country", all the while we only see a picture of a single store. For that store Apple surely could expect the protesters to pay for the cleaning service. For other stores we have no idea if any such paintings have happened. It's likely that they did this on one store to get a good press photo and that's it. It's not okay, but often a weapon of choice when people try to fight big institutions.

Protesting on a side-walk is not trespassing, because said side-walk belongs to the city, not to Apple. It is a public place.

Disrupting the private business while raising awareness for a very public problem is the whole aim of the protest. And of course Apple cannot sue protesters to compensate for decreased income when customers feel uneasy about the protest and the underlying problem. As long as the protesters don't physically hinder anyone to enter the stores or some court asks the protesters to stop their actions there is little Apple can do about it. For that single store on the picture an argument could very well be made, but obviously that was not enough to convince the judge.

Since the juridical approach failed (for the time being) it may be a good idea to communicate with each other. Unfortunately neither Apple nor Attac seem to be widely known for being open to talk "with" other people, rather than talking "about" other people.

In the end the cold and boredom will likely drive the protesters away given time and Apple will just keep moving out money from countries it was made in. Yes, it's legal. And no, humanity as a whole did not evolve too far from where it all began with tribes.

 

[Jesse Waugh]

As are, eg, paid lobbyists. What's good for goose should also be good enough for the gander.

Umm.. yes. Same thing.
[doublepost=1519560446][/doublepost]

I guess is more that extraordinary claims require for extraordinary supporting arguments. If someone claims the courts' decision is politically driven they also have to provide some very good arguments supporting such claim. So far, no such supporting argument has been provided as far as I've read.

But then again lies are designed to be deceptive.
[doublepost=1519560479][/doublepost]

Nice patronising deflection there, I conclude, as you are still left to provide evidence, you have blatantly lied.

The burden of proof it on you.

 

[bsolar]

But then again lies are designed to be deceptive.

Then provide convincing arguments to uncover the (hypothetical) lies. As someone said, the burden of proof is on you.

 

[Wowereit]

Free speech? In EU? LOL?
Try being a german citizen and writing just a simple post on facebook, something like this:
"Mass immigration is bad for us".

Good luck, because in 10mins police will come to take you in because of 'hate speech'.

It's not that bad... yet.
But the current direction is clear.

Privacy laws, property laws and freedom of speech laws are getting more oppressive year after year.

France has always been a bit socialist and collectivist at it's core. This is just one example of many.
I mean look at all the joint ventures with state involvement. Do you know another country pushing this concept? China.

 

[doctor-don]

Not relevant, fact is you have freedom of speech in Europe, glad the judge denied Apple's request.

Since when does freedom of speech allow disruption of a business? Even people on a picket line in the United States cannot prevent customers from entering a store. The judge in this case did not take into consideration the disruption to the business.
And what are they protesting? An issue that does not concern THEM. They are simply a group that is anti-American business. They committed vandalism when they painted on the store's glass windows, and they have no legal right to deface anyone else's property in most parts of the free world. In France … ??? Just send ATTAC a bill in the amount of 2,000 euros for cleaning the glass windows.

 

[apolloa]

Would actually be interested to know what your fuel prices are? I'm in Australia and get the odd feeling it's going to be more expensive here.

Well when we were allowed to protest a few years ago now it was at 80 ish pence a litre, now it’s around 1 pound 20 pence or more a litre. It costs me about 55 pounds sterling to fill up a Ford Fiesta. Plus all the other taxes we have on cars.
So in AUD it is 2.136 a litre or 97.929 a tank. Some places it can be 1.30 sterling and it has been up to 1.40 sterling or even more. Is that more then what you pay?

 

[doctor-don]

So, if I understand correctly you find painting on a window "vandalising", guess what, you can wash that off in no time.

Is the property YOUR property? NO! And you do NOT have the freedom to deface the property of someone else.

Are you a Russian bot?

 

[LinusR]

The burden of proof it on you.

Nope, you made unsubstantiated claims right here:

What a joke - there is no freedom of speech in Europe. You can be imprisoned for "inciting" or "denying" -- simply by speaking words. This "protest" in France is the EU grandstanding Apple trying to get what it thinks it deserves in taxes. Those "protesters" are paid stooges. Will the ignorance never end?

 

[justperry]

Since when does freedom of speech allow disruption of a business? Even people on a picket line in the United States cannot prevent customers from entering a store. The judge in this case did not take into consideration the disruption to the business.
And what are they protesting? An issue that does not concern THEM. They are simply a group that is anti-American business. They committed vandalism when they painted on the store's glass windows, and they have no legal right to deface anyone else's property in most parts of the free world. In France … ??? Just send ATTAC a bill in the amount of 2,000 euros for cleaning the glass windows.

US is not the EU!

Is the property YOUR property? NO! And you do NOT have the freedom to deface the property of someone else.

Are you a Russian bot?

Why start 2 separate replies?

What a joke - there is no freedom of speech in Europe. You can be imprisoned for "inciting" or "denying" -- simply by speaking words. This "protest" in France is the EU grandstanding Apple trying to get what it thinks it deserves in taxes. Those "protesters" are paid stooges. Will the ignorance never end?

Do you have any prove they get paid or is it just your opinion/tin foil hat.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

It is the same rationale as cooky stealing kids: they didn't know what/that they had to pay, pay already so much, didn't know about multiple regulations applying, they wanted to pay but didn't know how much, they thought they had their own deal but didn't know that was illegal.
Angela Ahrendts never asked for an outrageous salary - which for the public should imply that she deserves it. Well, nobody asked for Angela and her luxurist boutique tenure only to increase prices.
They expect the public to be imbeciles so they can get away with egoism, reckless thievery, and financial acrobatics while others clean their poo
Better get rid of these off-the-chart, overcapitalist zealots and start making decent computers again.
Steve gave them the company asking them to stay hungry, lean and mean, not fat and narcist

Analogy still doesn't work. Kids who steal cookies are still going against their parent's "law." There IS a price to be paid if they are caught. Companies that violate tax laws pay a price. Ignorance of the law is never a defense.

Executive pay is irrelevant to the discussion. Personalities are irrelevant to the discussion. The discussion is companies and people figuring out their lowest possible tax bill within the confines of the the law.

 

[justperry]

Demonstrating and vandalism is two different things...

What if someone was protesting your parking job and painted your car windows?

Also, it shouldn't matter if the victim has 1 billion dollars or just 1 cent, vandalism is a crime (at least here in the US), and the offenders should be prosecuted, or at a minimum be made to stop.

Your right it shouldn't matter BUT it does in Europe, it's hard to explain, most people here think a business that has so much in the bank can easily afford losing a bit of money just by cleaning up the windows and the inconvenience of less sales for just a short period of time (hour(s).

I still think this isn't really vandalism, nothing broke, just take your loses (Apple), don't be childish.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

I

See the story above, Apple is refusing to pay back taxes to Ireland after it ruled Ireland breached EU laws with plenty of evidence to back it up, it was not a tax loophole, it was illegal.
As for the other loopholes, they are being closed and the EU is going after them, although I suspect that has more to do with the public outcry their has been since these reports emerged, as I said, who do you think picks up this tax bills that corporations don’t pay?
Ah I found a story about the EU commission taking on Luxembourg over its arrangement with Amazon also:

Right but WHO violated EU law? Apple negotiated in good faith with Ireland. It was Ireland, an EU member, that violated EU law making the agreement with Apple because it wanted the employment Apple would bring to that country. My point in these discussions here is that Apple is not disregarding and violating tax laws. The laws are either poorly written or, in IRE's case, poorly negotiated. Both either way it's government that failed here. They are the one's with all the power.

Apple has agreed to pay EU back taxes and penalties where IT clearly misinterpreted the law. It's paying the price for that.
[doublepost=1519569697][/doublepost]

And criticising Apple here is just that, people petitioning the government indirectly via social media/press.

No. Petitioning the government is sending an email or lobbying your representative, commenting on a proposed rule, etc. Complaining about a company on a forum is just complaining about a forum. Government officials take no action on anything written on MR. It's not part of the official record.

 

[I7guy]

It is the same rationale as cooky stealing kids: they didn't know what/that they had to pay, pay already so much, didn't know about multiple regulations applying, they wanted to pay but didn't know how much, they thought they had their own deal but didn't know that was illegal.
Angela Ahrendts never asked for an outrageous salary - which for the public should imply that she deserves it. Well, nobody asked for Angela and her luxurist boutique tenure only to increase prices.
They expect the public to be imbeciles so they can get away with egoism, reckless thievery, and financial acrobatics while others clean their poo
Better get rid of these off-the-chart, overcapitalist zealots and start making decent computers again.
Steve gave them the company asking them to stay hungry, lean and mean, not fat and narcist

What does Angela have to do with any of this in this thread? aside from another dig at something else you don’t like about Apple, which isn’t changing anytime soon.

Steve gave a company to Tim telling him to run it, period. Not asking Tim not to change anything ever and especially to please every internet poster.

And he certainly didn’t tell Tim to make sure he runs afoul of the regulations in every company Apple does business.

 

[Peterkro]

Before the outraged propertarians have a fit it should be noted that Apple did not report any damage at all:

"It noted Apple had not reported any damage from the peaceful Paris protest in December".

https://phys.org/news/2018-02-apple-protests-french-tax-campaign.html

 

[Karma*Police]

The EU did NOT change the law, you got that wrong.
So many people here, and it seems to me our American friends, don't seem to get that Ireland is part of the EU therefor have to abide European Law, they collect(ed) less tax from Apple than from other companies which is against EU law.

No, but reinterpreting ambiguous laws to suit their political agenda and line their greedy coffers is pretty much the same thing.

And they’re pushing for actual changes to tax code to close those loopholes which tells me there’s something wrong with the current system, not what Apple and every other major company has been doing for years.