Apple Denied Request to Ban Tax Protestors From Its Stores in France

[apolloa]

Right but WHO violated EU law? Apple negotiated in good faith with Ireland. It was Ireland, an EU member, that violated EU law making the agreement with Apple because it wanted the employment Apple would bring to that country. My point in these discussions here is that Apple is not disregarding and violating tax laws. The laws are either poorly written or, in IRE's case, poorly negotiated. Both either way it's government that failed here. They are the one's with all the power.

Apple has agreed to pay EU back taxes and penalties where IT clearly misinterpreted the law. It's paying the price for that.
[doublepost=1519569697][/doublepost]

No. Petitioning the government is sending an email or lobbying your representative, commenting on a proposed rule, etc. Complaining about a company on a forum is just complaining about a forum. Government officials take no action on anything written on MR. It's not part of the official record.

If you read the links you would of seen that Apple is considered to have received state aid, that is illegal. You can try to defend it if you want but it’s pretty clear cut. And The EU had to take Ireland to court because they and Apple refused to pay. That is the only reason they may have agreed to pay now if they have, it’s not out of Apples good will that’s damn sure.
He laws are not poorly written, and if they are is your suggestion that Apple is incapable of asking for clarity from the EU on those laws then?
If you know your paying 0.005% tax on your entire global earnings bar one country because of a special deal you got, it’s a bit fetching to then claim they did not know it was illegal and against EU rules....

 

[AZ63]

A steady-state economy based on fulfilling human and life systems need.

Market economic theory is based on the ludicrous notion that infinite growth can exist in a world of finite resources, mimicking the creed of a cancer cell.

So I can get an idea of how a "steady-state economy" would function, is there a country which now operates in this manner?

 

[swajames]

Right but WHO violated EU law? Apple negotiated in good faith with Ireland. It was Ireland, an EU member, that violated EU law making the agreement with Apple because it wanted the employment.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the lawyers and accountants putting these structures together absolutely considered and will have raised things like the potential impact of state aid rules.

It’s not that things are negotiated in good faith, it’s more accurate to say that judgment calls are made and positions are taken.

Companies using these structures are not “negotiating in good faith”, they are simply willing to roll the dice. They are aware of the risks, they are made aware of the risks by their advisors, but they accept them as the potential commercial benefits are significant enough to justify them. No one is an innocent victim when they play games of fine margins like those driving for highly beneficial tax results.

 

[AZ63]

If you read the links you would of seen that Apple is considered to have received state aid, that is illegal. You can try to defend it if you want but it’s pretty clear cut. And The EU had to take Ireland to court because they and Apple refused to pay. That is the only reason they may have agreed to pay now if they have, it’s not out of Apples good will that’s damn sure.
He laws are not poorly written, and if they are is your suggestion that Apple is incapable of asking for clarity from the EU on those laws then?
If you know your paying 0.005% tax on your entire global earnings bar one country because of a special deal you got, it’s a bit fetching to then claim they did not know it was illegal and against EU rules....

It appears clear, by your indications, that Ireland does not know the EU laws. If a member state of the EU does not know it's own laws then how is a company looking to engage in a business opportunity supposed to know the laws of what is and is not acceptable. If a member nation fails its duties in carrying out its obligations to the EU then the fault lies squarely at the EU member's feet for letting it happen. Ireland should be punished for allowing such a deal.
Because of this apparent illegal agreement between a multinational company and an EU nation, I am sure you would agree that the EU should set up an expert team fully aware of all the legal ins and outs of the EU so the team can fully vet or even negotiate all multinational business deals before business starts. That way these companies couldn't get away with outsmarting EU member nations and multinational companies wouldn't be looking over their shoulder to see if the EU will later decide to rule their business agreement with an EU member state is outside the agreed upon workings of the EU.
[doublepost=1519580190][/doublepost]

They are insane - its the 21st century and these people actually believe the Earth is flat!!

Over the past few years, the Anti-science 'movement' seems to be growing.

Additionally, there are a large number of people who believe the United States didn't go to the moon. There is even a YouTube video out there, "proof the US didn't go to the moon."

 

[Bacillus]

What does Angela have to do with any of this in this thread? aside from another dig at something else you don’t like about Apple, which isn’t changing anytime soon.

Steve gave a company to Tim telling him to run it, period. Not asking Tim not to change anything ever and especially to please every internet poster.
And he certainly didn’t tell Tim to make sure he runs afoul of the regulations in every company Apple does business.

Steve asked Tim to stay young, foolish, lean, mean. Not to hire pompuous and loaded executives or to go up the luxury and fashion ladder like Angela does

 

[I7guy]

Steve asked Tim to stay young, foolish, lean, mean. Not to hire pompuous and loaded executives or to go up the luxury and fashion ladder like Angela does

Do you know what the conversations were between Steve and Tim? Maybe Steve said, I want to drive Apple more upscale. Hire Angela, she's the best.

 

[Bacillus]

Analogy still doesn't work. Kids who steal cookies are still going against their parent's "law." There IS a price to be paid if they are caught. Companies that violate tax laws pay a price. Ignorance of the law is never a defense.
Executive pay is irrelevant to the discussion. Personalities are irrelevant to the discussion. The discussion is companies and people figuring out their lowest possible tax bill within the confines of the the law.

The (lack of) arguments is remarkably similar, though.
Tax violation is even more ludicrous and embarrassing for the richest company in the world. It is a game only played by leaders with a focus/obsession on finance, not on providing the best products.
And they're not very good at it either, apparently. All this says a lot about their mentality and personality's.
Instead of the lean and mean mindset, it is about greed and overcapitalist prosperity. They betrayed Steve Jobs and don't deserve to be there.

 

[Jesse Waugh]

Then provide convincing arguments to uncover the (hypothetical) lies. As someone said, the burden of proof is on you.

Actually it was me who stated "The burden of proof is on you." - Perhaps you might reread the posts you seem to have confused. It is on you to provide convincing arguments that those protesters are legitimate.
[doublepost=1519582257][/doublepost]

Nope, you made unsubstantiated claims right here:

Not claims and not unsubstantiated. Your assertion that they are genuine is what is being claimed here. And it's that which is unsubstantiated.
[doublepost=1519582302][/doublepost]

Do you have any prove they get paid or is it just your opinion/tin foil hat.

Do you have any proof they are legitimate or is that just your gullibility?

 

[Bacillus]

Do you know what the conversations were between Steve and Tim? Maybe Steve said, I want to drive Apple more upscale. Hire Angela, she's the best.

No. That's exactly the opposite from what happened. And Angela isn't the best either. She merely milks a shop formula as invented by Ron Johnson, trying to add fashion elements, targeted to make the brand more expensive without added value and the originality that was Steve's trademark.

 

[I7guy]

No. That's exactly the opposite from what happened. And Angela isn't the best either. She merely milks a shop formula as invented by Ron Johnson, trying to add fashion elements only targeted to make the brand more expensive without added value and the originality that was Steve's trademark

I'm not sure anyone of us, really know the exact conversations and what was said and/or implied. If you do please point us to some narrative of the conversations between Steve and Tim on how to run the company going forward. You are correct in one sense though, best is subjective. But nonetheless the reality of this is, this is where apple is today and Tim has taken them there. You may like the changes or not.

As far as your earlier comment on tax violations. I would like to know one fortune 100 company that has not run afoul of some regulation somewhere and had not been fined by an external govt agency.

Embarrassing, not at all.

However, a company that is greedy probably will fail. Enron and Bernie Madoff come to mind. A company that produces a product its customer want will grow and prosper. Maybe that is why Ferarri has a two year waiting list for its cars.

 

[bsolar]

Actually it was me who stated "The burden of proof is on you." - Perhaps you might reread the posts you seem to have confused.

Nope, I know that perfectly. The point is, you should do as you preach. Your claims are the following:

What a joke - there is no freedom of speech in Europe. You can be imprisoned for "inciting" or "denying" -- simply by speaking words. This "protest" in France is the EU grandstanding Apple trying to get what it thinks it deserves in taxes. Those "protesters" are paid stooges. Will the ignorance never end?

Burden of proof on you about them. Convincing arguments so far: none.

It is on you to provide convincing arguments that those protesters are legitimate.

Nope again: first of all the claim is yours that the protesters are "paid stooges" (your exact words), so burden of proof is yours.

Furthermore, I never claimed the protesters are legitimate in the first place, so why would be my burden of proof? I never even made that claim. Talk about who needs to re-read posts and who seems confused...

What I claimed is that the protesters did likely act in ways which might have allowed Apple to prevail in court at least in part, but Apple did not present the case adequately and thus lost.

My convincing arguments? It's all written in plain French in the court decision, which is linked in the MacRumors article and details the requests, evidence, the legal basis and the rationale which led to the request dismissal.

 

[Bacillus]

I'm not sure anyone of us, really know the exact conversations and what was said and/or implied. If you do please point us to some narrative of the conversations between Steve and Tim on how to run the company going forward. You are correct in one sense though, best is subjective. But nonetheless the reality of this is, this is where apple is today and Tim has taken them there. You may like the changes or not.
As far as your earlier comment on tax violations. I would like to know one fortune 100 company that has not run afoul of some regulation somewhere and had not been fined by an external govt agency.
Embarrassing, not at all.
However, a company that is greedy probably will fail. Enron and Bernie Madoff come to mind. A company that produces a product its customer want will grow and prosper. Maybe that is why Ferarri has a two year waiting list for its cars.

I know what's in the various books/movies - so I know what Steve despised (especially from the leaders he succeeded upon his return) versus the values he stood for and he implemented upon his return.
Sadly, those values are waning since he left. Some of his idea's are still with the lower ranks (engineering and development) but they have become snowed under the immense financial momentum and different orientation of the current leadership. So that indeed is the reality - but not exactly an accomplishment or something we should consent.
F100 companies all have their fiscal issues, but not at this scale.
None of them have established such a notable moral self-esteem and ethical leadership as Apple on equality, on social issues, on foreign labor conditions, the environment.
While laudable, the world follows them and checks their reality level, whether they behave in the same exemplary manner as they pretend themselves.
So it puts extra attention responsibilities upon itself. If Tim Cook finds it important to travel to China to explain the virtues of a free (captialist) world, he has to be sure he follows the rules of that world.
Currently, Apple is facing hughe opposition and negative sentiments towards its tenure and pretensions (like Google, FaceBook, Snapchat, ....)
This is not about me or you, or what we think, this is about millions and millions that form the contra-movements suddenly appearing, as they did during the WTO riots in Seattle (1999)
This is what's behind the protests in France.

 

[I7guy]

I know what's in the various books/movies - so I know what Steve despised (especially from the leaders he succeeded upon his return) versus the values he stood for and he implemented upon his return.
Sadly, those values are waning since he left. Some of his idea's are still with the lower ranks (engineering and development) but they have become snowed under the immense financial momentum and different orientation of the current leadership. So that indeed is the reality - but not exactly an accomplishment or something we should consent.
F100 companies all have their fiscal issues, but not at this scale.
None of them have established such a notable moral self-esteem and ethical leadership as Apple on equality, on social issues, on foreign labor conditions, the environment.
While laudable, the world follows them and checks their reality level, whether they behave in the same exemplary manner as they pretend themselves.
So it puts extra attention responsibilities upon itself. If Tim Cook finds it important to travel to China to explain the virtues of a free (captialist) world, he has to be sure he follows the rules of that world.
Currently, Apple is facing hughe opposition and negative sentiments towards its tenure and pretensions (like Google, FaceBook, Snapchat, ....)
This is not about me or you, or what we think, this is about millions and millions that form the contra-movements suddenly appearing, as they did during the WTO riots in Seattle (1999)
This is what's behind the protests in France.

It seems you have this imagery in your mind about the way Steve Jobs, would have wanted apple run, based on what you know about the man. Since, you, I or anybody else cannot reach across the neverworld, we don't really know what his thoughts are on apple of 2018. He might be patting Tim Cook on the back and saying good job. You had a vision different from me, but I like where the company is today.

So happily, I don't see and values waning, although I like the apple of today better than yesterday, and it appears their customers also as well as apple heads toward 1T.

Speaking of valuation and scale, companies have disappeared from the face of the earth, eg Lehman Bros. Bad choices with no foresight contributed to that. So yes, f100 companies do have their issues at this scale. Granted Lehman wasn't an f100 company, but the financial sector took a beating a few years ago.

It's okay for Apple to be a SJW. In fact, I admire the company more that they have taken up certain causes; doesn't really matter if I agree with the causes or not. That doesn't mean, they will never have issues with governments or regulators, here or abroad, or they don't practice what they preach. That's quite a leap you make, a company will never be 100% clean especially with 100000 employees. Advocating for hurricane victims is not quite a directive to make sure apple pays more than its fair share of taxes nor is it a damnation of it's corporate ethics when after the fact they are embroiled in a disagreement over taxes.

Cooks responsibilities is to the customers, board and shareholders, not to you or I. This "thing" in France is much ado about nothing and will blow over. I don't see apple "facing huge opposition". But we will see, the devil is in the details of the revenue.

 

[hamiltonrwatch]

That isn't violence, that is self defense.

Wrong.

If you are lawfully ordered to disperse and do not, you can lawfully be removed by law enforcement with whatever reasonable force is required.

 

[AZ63]

You can bet your bottom dollar that the lawyers and accountants putting these structures together absolutely considered and will have raised things like the potential impact of state aid rules.

It’s not that things are negotiated in good faith, it’s more accurate to say that judgment calls are made and positions are taken.

Companies using these structures are not “negotiating in good faith”, they are simply willing to roll the dice. They are aware of the risks, they are made aware of the risks by their advisors, but they accept them as the potential commercial benefits are significant enough to justify them. No one is an innocent victim when they play games of fine margins like those driving for highly beneficial tax results.

You certainly come across as having dealings in these matters. What is your background in these negotiations?
If Apple is the villain trying to get away with breaking EU law, as companies using these structure do, then why does the other party, Ireland, agree to it.
Who's more to blame, the group trying to get away with a crime or the group that lets them get away with the crime?
If member countries of the EU can't be trusted to negotiate legal EU agreements, who's to blame?
Perhaps the EU needs to establish a panel to review all multinational agreements before any agreements can be approved and business started.

 

[thisisnotmyname]

My rationale? I don't care. Apple's got enough money. If they made a good computer at an affordable price, I'd buy it.

Glass houses, stones.

but hey, your hypocrisy is fine because Apple is a corporation so it's noble to throw shade on their "greed" as they follow the law but no need for any introspection about your violation of the law because you can't (or simply don't want to which is MUCH better ) pay the price Apple is charging. Dang greedy corporations.

 

[Bacillus]

It seems you have this imagery in your mind about the way Steve Jobs, would have wanted apple run, based on what you know about the man. Since, you, I or anybody else cannot reach across the neverworld, we don't really know what his thoughts are on apple of 2018. He might be patting Tim Cook on the back and saying good job. You had a vision different from me, but I like where the company is today
So happily, I don't see and values waning, although I like the apple of today better than yesterday, and it appears their customers also as well as apple heads toward 1T.
Speaking of valuation and scale, companies have disappeared from the face of the earth, eg Lehman Bros. Bad choices with no foresight contributed to that. So yes, f100 companies do have their issues at this scale. Granted Lehman wasn't an f100 company, but the financial sector took a beating a few years ago.
It's okay for Apple to be a SJW. In fact, I admire the company more that they have taken up certain causes; doesn't really matter if I agree with the causes or not. That doesn't mean, they will never have issues with governments or regulators, here or abroad, or they don't practice what they preach. That's quite a leap you make, a company will never be 100% clean especially with 100000 employees. Advocating for hurricane victims is not quite a directive to make sure apple pays more than its fair share of taxes nor is it a damnation of it's corporate ethics when after the fact they are embroiled in a disagreement over taxes.
Cooks responsibilities is to the customers, board and shareholders, not to you or I. This "thing" in France is much ado about nothing and will blow over. I don't see apple "facing huge opposition". But we will see, the devil is in the details of the revenue.

You may be immune for the opinion of the crowds, but large companies aren't.
The counter movement against online shopping giants, Amazons, Alibaba's that have seized market power and the Silicon valley giants that see the world as their market garden is growing fast.
You just don't have a clue what a minority you are, as an Apple-fan that accepts most from Cupertino as a given.

 

[I7guy]

You may be immune for the opinion of the crowds, but large companies aren't.
The counter movement against online shopping giants, Amazons, Alibaba's that have seized market power and the Silicon valley giants that see the world as their market garden is growing fast.
You just don't have a clue what a minority you are, as an Apple-fan that accepts most from Cupertino as a given.

on the other hand, it can be said you are out of touch with this “counter movement” you allude to and the effect on large multinational corporations. I’m still waiting for Apple to implode; what with all this of the negative press and duplicity of the company it should be reflected in the reality of its finances.

 

[apolloa]

It appears clear, by your indications, that Ireland does not know the EU laws. If a member state of the EU does not know it's own laws then how is a company looking to engage in a business opportunity supposed to know the laws of what is and is not acceptable. If a member nation fails its duties in carrying out its obligations to the EU then the fault lies squarely at the EU member's feet for letting it happen. Ireland should be punished for allowing such a deal.
Because of this apparent illegal agreement between a multinational company and an EU nation, I am sure you would agree that the EU should set up an expert team fully aware of all the legal ins and outs of the EU so the team can fully vet or even negotiate all multinational business deals before business starts. That way these companies couldn't get away with outsmarting EU member nations and multinational companies wouldn't be looking over their shoulder to see if the EU will later decide to rule their business agreement with an EU member state is outside the agreed upon workings of the EU.
[doublepost=1519580190][/doublepost]
Additionally, there are a large number of people who believe the United States didn't go to the moon. There is even a YouTube video out there, "proof the US didn't go to the moon."

So instead of accepting the fact that Ireland and Apple willingly breached EU law, you’ve instead concluded that Apple and Ireland did not actually understand EU tax law and it was nothing but a mistake? So a well developed country, and the planets biggesr corporation don’t understand differentiating tax laws...

Hell of an excuse there. Unfortunately that’s not what’s happened. And Ireland is being punished.
Ireland will have signed up to these EU tax laws, it would then have an MEP in the EU who could veto or vote for different laws and rules in the union, it will have fully understood the tax laws as it signed up to them, and Apple will if I’d a duty to study them as it chose to operate in an EU member state.

The EU commission proved their agreement illegal, Apple and Ireland tried to fight it and so the EU took Ireland to court last October and I think Apple has said it will pay. It has also been declared that the tax its told the US it will pay on its off shore earnings will NOT cover the tax bill owed to the EU.

 

[AZ63]

So instead of accepting the fact that Ireland and Apple willingly breached EU law, you’ve instead concluded that Apple and Ireland did not actually understand EU tax law and it was nothing but a mistake? So a well developed country, and the planets biggesr corporation don’t understand differentiating tax laws...

Hell of an excuse there. Unfortunately that’s not what’s happened. And Ireland is being punished.

So Ireland is guilty of knowingly colluding with Apple to help Apple pay less in taxes.
And you know this how?
I have read a fair amount on this situation and I have yet to read anything on how Ireland is being punished.
Please enlighten me with a article you are aware of as I also want to become more informed as I hope all would as well.
You didn't respond to my last point about the EU creating an oversight body to okay all multinational business deals since the EU countries are uninformed of the finer points of EU laws or they are corrupt and willingly enter into agreements that are illegal.
Do you think that the EU should establish such a body?

 

[Wanted797]

Well when we were allowed to protest a few years ago now it was at 80 ish pence a litre, now it’s around 1 pound 20 pence or more a litre. It costs me about 55 pounds sterling to fill up a Ford Fiesta. Plus all the other taxes we have on cars.
So in AUD it is 2.136 a litre or 97.929 a tank. Some places it can be 1.30 sterling and it has been up to 1.40 sterling or even more. Is that more then what you pay?

No. Wow. Here I’ve been paying $1.75 AU per litre which is about 0.98 for you. But I know if you go to bigger city’s like Sydney or out in the country areas it can be up around $2 per L. Which would be 1.12 for you.

 

[thisisnotmyname]

It is the same rationale as cooky stealing kids: they didn't know what/that they had to pay, pay already so much, didn't know about multiple regulations applying, they wanted to pay but didn't know how much, they thought they had their own deal but didn't know that was illegal.
Angela Ahrendts never asked for an outrageous salary - which for the public should imply that she deserves it. Well, nobody asked for Angela and her luxurist boutique tenure only to increase prices.
They expect the public to be imbeciles so they can get away with egoism, reckless thievery, and financial acrobatics while others clean their poo
Better get rid of these off-the-chart, overcapitalist zealots and start making decent computers again.
Steve gave them the company asking them to stay hungry, lean and mean, not fat and narcist

Steve was worth about $8.5BB at the time of his death.

 

[Tiger8]

You saw the photo of their fecal-esque smearing all over the front of the store right?

Guess who pays to clean the protester's mess up?
A. Screaming sidewalk brats
B. Corporate/Political sponsor/employer of screaming sidewalk brats
C. French Government
D. Tim Cook
E. Elon Musk
F. Customers & shareholders

Also the people who do the cleaning services for Apple, already doing an unenviable job, get tasked with extra work because middle to upper, protester-class brats threw a public temper tantrum.

I hope they take some solace in the fact that Apple will be employing them and making iPhones, longer than the EU will be economically viable for France.

You don't know where and when the picture is taken, THE COURT decided that no vandalism was done so I'll take their word instead of someone who drew all sorts of conclusions from an uncaptioned picture

 

[AppleFan91]

Give the Vandals some credit. When they sacked Rome in 455, it wasn't painting slogans of social responsibility on the wall with water soluble paint.

I understand Americans utterly fascistic eagerness to place the unencumbered interests of a businesses pursuit of a dollar over everything in the entire universe, but I'm glad there are parts of the world that have been down that path already and after learning what lay at the end of it, had the sense to avoid such vulgar avarice.

Chill. All I said was “interesting” and now you’re going off on an anti-American tangent.

 

[T-R-S]

I was unaware that corporations in the EU write their tax laws ....