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No, but If I sold you a stand mixer and then said you could not use it to mix anything with eggs in it, you'd probably think I was being ridiculous, no?

It's none of my business how you use a product I sell you after the point of sale.



Congrats, you caught my words.

I do not know what "most" users do (and neither do you). Piracy is not a requirement of most hacks these days (some of them require a specially modified version, which, when distributed to another user is technically piracy, but again, in those cases, users are encouraged to purchase an "honorary" copy). The piracy problem within the OSX86 community is an independent issue from piracy altogether. Like I said earlier, there are plenty of GENUINE MAC USERS who pirate OS X and iLife as well...

1. You can't simply compare it to buying a mixer....when you buy a mixer you are buying the actual physical mixer, which much like a toothbrush you can do whatever you want with...when it comes to OSX you are not purchasing software, you are purchasing a license to USE software, in which they have the ability to tell you what you can and can't do with that software license.....think of it more as a drivers license; With one you can legally drive a car, without one you can't, just because you have one doesn't mean you can do whatever you please with it.....drive drunk and your up a shitcreek. Yes i know that law's and EULA's are different, but in the end they are both agreements and if you accept them you should follow them.


I never said piracy was a requirement, but if you think a majority of OSX86 users go to the apple store or apple.com to purchase OSX, then i have some beachfront property in Utah to sell you. OSX86 piracy, is piracy, is piracy, just because some genuine OSX users pirate iLife doesnt somehow make OSX86 any less bad.
 
And why on Earth should Apple "support" something that is illegal in the first place? Do Atoms exist on Macs? NO. Can OS X legally run on anything else than Macs? NO.

Whoever defends this is a moron or, at the very least, acts in bad faith as the rest of the freeriding pirates out there.

WELL DONE, Apple.

brb, buying a copy of snow leopard and installing it on my pc and then calling the police to come arrest me for installing a piece of software i bought.
 
There are more variation re:"features" on different CPU families than the little things like SSE3 vs. SSE2, etc. Access registers, Machine State Register (MSR), etc. may be unique, which is why OSX uses a CPUID check so these differences can be "handled"...
I wonder what deeper requirements 10.6.2 would need for those "differences".

Yes, I have the dual-core 330 version on order for the princely sum of £151. Thinking of making it either an XMBC or Plex box stuck on the back of the TV. Acer cannot keep up with demand and the delivery date has slipped twice already.
Keep hanging in there. It looks like a great product.
 
This is going to sound really ignorant of me (because I neither own a PC nor have I ever installed OS X on a PC, ie. constuct a hackintosh)
Not at all. Hackintoshing is still in the dark corners of the internet and havent really gained much momentum, even among techies.
Exactly how easy is this to do?
It depends on what hardware you are using. I built my latest computer with the sole intention of running osx on it. I installed 10.6 on it and it took me about an hour start-to-finish to get it done. I've done several hacs in the past so i kinda know what im doing, but with the right hardware its incredibly easy to set one up, though i would still not suggest it to a complete tech noob because if something goes wrong its good to know some good troubleshooting techniques.
Does it require a 3rd party software tool?
Yep. The biggest issue with putting OSX on a pc is the boot process. There needs to be a 3rd party bootloader installed for anything to work. Consequently theres a disc called Boot-132. You boot from that cd and it will tell you to swap it out for a retail 10.6(or 10.5) disc. Then it boots into the SL installer and installs SL. You have to boot from boot-132 one more time to get to the osx desktop, then you can install the bootloader to your hdd and start installing drivers for your hardware.
Do you just insert the Snow Leopard/Leopard DVD and GO?
Read^^ ;)
Is the process easy enough for a caveman to do it?
Nope. Perhaps a caveman with a bowtie.
I built my first hac back when Leopard was fresh off the press in 2007 when i was a young 18 year old with no idea how osx worked. It took me a little work but it finally ran. In two years the whole process has made huge steps forward and is much much easier.

There are several idiots guides that explain every step of the process if you are interested in checking one out just for giggles.
 
1. You can't simply compare it to buying a mixer....when you buy a mixer you are buying the actual physical mixer, which much like a toothbrush you can do whatever you want with...when it comes to OSX you are not purchasing software, you are purchasing a license to USE software, in which they have the ability to tell you what you can and can't do with that software license.....think of it more as a drivers license; With one you can legally drive a car, without one you can't, just because you have one doesn't mean you can do whatever you please with it.....drive drunk and your up a shitcreek. Yes i know that law's and EULA's are different, but in the end they are both agreements and if you accept them you should follow them.

Okay then, say I write a book, and the EULA for the book says that you can only read it in a Caribou Coffee shop. It's irrelevant to the substance of the book, and it imposes unnecessary restrictions of the use of the book. Yet I make money on the back end because I'm a Caribou Coffee shareholder.

Hey, I wrote the book so if you want to read it, you have to agree to my EULA...

I never said piracy was a requirement, but if you think a majority of OSX86 users go to the apple store or apple.com to purchase OSX, then i have some beachfront property in Utah to sell you. OSX86 piracy, is piracy, is piracy, just because some genuine OSX users pirate iLife doesnt somehow make OSX86 any less bad.

And OSX86 non-piracy is non-piracy. What's your point? There are pirates and there are non-pirates. Just because some people in the state of Utah pirate does not mean we should eradicate the entire state.

By the way, the Great Salt Lake in Utah contains miles and miles of beach...

Sometimes our petty misconceptions cloud our abilities to make sensible judgements.
 
IS NOT PIRACY!

I'm getting so sick and tired of people saying that using software that you purchased is piracy. I can do what I want! Get off my back.

I'm usually a rather calm person but the way everyone right now is trying to control my life, from Apple to the United States government, is really starting to piss me off.

Go ahead and flame me, but I could not care less.

I love this.

Yes, you can do anything you want with your purchase! That's America! But, America can prevent you from doing what you're not supposed to do too. Sure, your car might be able to go 200mph, and sure you can drive that fast if you want, but that doesn't mean that the cops won't chase you or take away your car or whatever. You don't really own the road. You wouldn't tell the cop who pulled you over (because you'd get laughed at by the cop), "But this is America, I bought this car, I should be able to go however fast I want! Why make it go 200 if I can't?". Like I said, you can go however fast you want, but they'll try and stop you every chance they get!

You can do whatever you want with Apple's software, that's the beauty of it! Apple can also do whatever they want to prevent you from doing so because technically it is their software that you are purchasing a license from.

Apple is not some big evil corporation for protecting their products, their profit, or their shareholders. They may be big and evil for other reasons, but certainly not for doing what every company and person has the right to do and what all of them do.
 
P.A. Semi was a PowerPC maker, not ARM.

So why does MacRumors say they are an ARM producer? Did I miss something?

spazzcat said:
Unfortunately, you can't do whatever you want when you buy software. You know that whole EULA thing. Right or wrong you don't really own the software...
Except for that recent ruling that found that software that is sold, is sold. Software can't be claimed to be licensed unless the company plans to return the software after the license term is over. So, since OS X is 'retailed,' and not licensed, you can do whatever you want within the law.
 
EULA isn't law, no matter what Apple says.

Originally Posted by ddTaylor
I think no EULA has been tested in court. There have been limited actions against aspects of the EULA but not he EULA as a whole. The fact that you cannot see or read the EULA until you open or even install the software is dumb - as once the software is opened or installed you cannot return it.

False. http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

I think a lot of people here don't understand the law very well. Just because Apple says something is the case doesn't make it the case. Otherwise they could just write whatever the hell they wanted on that little print and people would be bound to, say, give their first child to Apple. Why can't they write that? Not (just) because people wouldn't buy the software, but because you can't put that sort of thing in a contract -- can't in the sense that, a lawsuit would contest it and a judge would strike it down. What if Apple put it in right now; there would certainly be a period before a lawsuit -- does Apple own your first child during that period? Of course not: until it has been actually tested in court, a contract with novel characteristics exists in a bit of a legal limbo, not really validated as law. That is how EULA's currently exist in the US. But they have been tested in Europe -- and mostly found wanting. Thus the question of presumption -- what do you presume to be the case prior to the contract being tested in court -- is arguably that those EULA "contracts" are invalid until proven (in court) otherwise. At the very least, simply citing Apple's EULA claims in no way proves that those claims are legal.

To summarize: EULA is not yet law! Not only is buying and installing your OS in a hackintosh not theft, not piracy, and harmless (except to Apple's business interests), it's not even a misdemeanor crime. So far, legally, it's nothing. Even if it were found to be illegal, my personal belief in private property trumps my allegiance to Apple's business interests, so I would defend breaking the EULA -- but luckily, there's nothing yet to break.

(Incidentally, there is a bit of nuance to this: Apple's claims would be much stronger if, like corporations do with Sun or MS, you explicitly signed a contract to license software. That's fairly kosher. So it's not that software can't be licensed per se. Rather, it's the "EU" part of EULA that's at issue -- that consumers are bound by whatever the corporation puts into the fine print merely by having bought the software. That's the part that's iffy and was struck down in Europe. And reasonably so: by that logic, everything we buy could have EULA's attached to it, specifying whatever, say, Target wanted about when and where we could wear their clothes. Perhaps that would be defensible if it was just Target -- but imagine if all clothing manufacturers did it. Agree to their contracts, or go naked... EULA's are very bad ideas.)
 
IS NOT PIRACY!

I'm getting so sick and tired of people saying that using software that you purchased is piracy. I can do what I want! Get off my back.

I'm usually a rather calm person but the way everyone right now is trying to control my life, from Apple to the United States government, is really starting to piss me off.

Go ahead and flame me, but I could not care less.

You obviously care or you wouldn't have replied as you did. On the same note, if you pay for the software, there is no reason you cannot install it wherever you see fit. Apple will eventually lose those battles too.

Lets say you buy yourself a new car, say an Infiniti G37. It's top speed I'll estimate is 150 MPH. You take that car on a public highway at it's top speed, but the speed limit is 65. A cop pulls you over and gives you a speeding ticket. According to you two, that ticket is bogus because it's your car, and you could do whatever you want with it, right? Those damn cops and the US government trying to control your life!
 
Okay then, say I write a book, and the EULA for the book says that you can only read it in a Caribou Coffee shop. It's irrelevant to the substance of the book, and it imposes unnecessary restrictions of the use of the book. Yet I make money on the back end because I'm a Caribou Coffee shareholder.

Hey, I wrote the book so if you want to read it, you have to agree to my EULA...



And OSX86 non-piracy is non-piracy. What's your point? There are pirates and there are non-pirates. Just because some people in the state of Utah pirate does not mean we should eradicate the entire state.

By the way, the Great Salt Lake in Utah contains miles and miles of beach...

Sometimes our petty misconceptions cloud our abilities to make sensible judgements.

And if i dont agree to your EULA then i dont have to buy it, much like if i dont want to pay $4.00 a gallon for gas i don't have to. No one forces you to purchase a Mac nor OSX so frankly if you don't like the terms of the agreement, dont buy OSX or a Mac. It's that simple. Frankly im tired of people feeling its ok to break the rules because they dont like them, if you dont like the terms of using OSX, use Windows, use linux, go purchase a Dell/HP/Acer.

The point is this is exactly why you will never see OSX licensed to consumers to be used to install on regular PC's. Think of it this way, Apple makes X number of dollars in profit from selling a Mac with OSX, money lost to people pirating iLife is pennies compared to the amount of money they make up in the hardware/software combo. Allow a user to install on a regular pc you lose the hardware/software profit margins, and you also lose a great chunk in profit on software alone when most people will pirate it anyway. Consider how much Microsoft would make on Windows 7 sales if only licensed to the end user versus their current combo of PC manufacturer/End User licensing.

Oh and if we would like to be more specific, if you would be interested in beachfront property along the coastal united states in UTAH, i can sell you that too.
 
No, I am not comparing illegal drugs to software.

I was arguing about the idea that "because I am not doing anything wrong to anyone else it is not ethically questionable or legally punishable".

Which is not what law is about. Read the whole thread before.

Ok let's say we agree its illegal, what should the penalty be? 5 years in jail, maybe 10? I don't know.

And is apple willing to pay for the cost in enforcing their own EULA on an individual basis?
 
Its easy if you clarify your response in the first place. Five words. Europe is not the EU. Too many people use the words interchangeably which is where the problems start.

My response was clear. The problem is people starting to read the thread from the middle. They start assuming what was said before and end up fighting over things that were understood at the beginning of the thread.

In any MacRumors discussion is the same pattern. A discussion involves around 10 or 12 threads. People do not read the whole threads and start fighting against each other.

In fact, even EU is not uniform in laws. My original answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winni
I'm with you there. And I doubt that Apple's EULA is legal - at least not in Europe.

And I answer:

Sadly, Europe is not a country. It has so many different laws, that what might not be legal in Spain, might be legal in Swedden, and in some circumstances might be legal in Norway...

So do not say EULAs are not legal in Europe. You only need one little country where EULAs are legal to counterexample. And there are.

The vocabulary and what was said fits perfectly into MacRumors forum. But if you reply to "And there are" you are just trolling.

But it is not Macrumors fault either, since this is a comments forum, not a discussions forum. Just bear in mind the limits of the system.
 
I think a lot of people here don't understand the law very well. Just because Apple says something is the case doesn't make it the case. Otherwise they could just write whatever the hell they wanted on that little print and people would be bound to, say, give their first child to Apple. Why can't they write that? Not (just) because people wouldn't buy the software, but because you can't put that sort of thing in a contract -- can't in the sense that, a lawsuit would contest it and a judge would strike it down. What if Apple put it in right now; there would certainly be a period before a lawsuit -- does Apple own your first child during that period? Of course not: until it has been actually tested in court, a contract with novel characteristics exists in a bit of a legal limbo, not really validated as law. That is how EULA's currently exist in the US. But they have been tested in Europe -- and mostly found wanting. Thus the question of presumption -- what do you presume to be the case prior to the contract being tested in court -- is arguably that those EULA "contracts" are invalid until proven (in court) otherwise. At the very least, simply citing Apple's EULA claims in no way proves that those claims are legal.

To summarize: EULA is not yet law! Not only is buying and installing your OS in a hackintosh not theft, not piracy, and harmless (except to Apple's business interests), it's not even a misdemeanor crime. So far, legally, it's nothing. Even if it were found to be illegal, my personal belief in private property trumps my allegiance to Apple's business interests, so I would defend breaking the EULA -- but luckily, there's nothing yet to break.

(Incidentally, there is a bit of nuance to this: Apple's claims would be much stronger if, like corporations do with Sun or MS, you explicitly signed a contract to license software. That's fairly kosher. So it's not that software can't be licensed per se. Rather, it's the "EU" part of EULA that's at issue -- that consumers are bound by whatever the corporation puts into the fine print merely by having bought the software. That's the part that's iffy and was struck down in Europe. And reasonably so: by that logic, everything we buy could have EULA's attached to it, specifying whatever, say, Target wanted about when and where we could wear their clothes. Perhaps that would be defensible if it was just Target -- but imagine if all clothing manufacturers did it. Agree to their contracts, or go naked... EULA's are very bad ideas.)

You can break a contract and not be thrown in jail, however you could be sued for breaking that contract.
 
Or Snow Leopard would cost instead more like $350 if it was sold standalone. then you get a completely new group of whiners...
dvkid said:
But if Apple were to let the Psystar/Hackintosh crowd move forward unchecked, the retail price of each OS X upgrade will balloon. If the hardware and OS is no longer a bundle, then sales of the OS will have to make development financially viable without the subsidy of hardware

Oh, so you're admitting Apple violates Sarbanes-Oxley, or that the $10 charge for iPhone software updates is just a 'because we can' action?

uberamd said:
That is the mindset of Hackintosh people.
The mindset of the Hackintosh people is the U.C.C.: Uniform Commercial Code.
 
Wow. This is an amazingly passionate topic. As passionate as abortion or gun control. Most of it has been heard and said before but still, I'm in awe how emotional this gets.

Legal or not, Apple will do what they want, and say what they want in their EULA, and there is no stopping them for the time being unless they are struck down by a court of law. Legal or not, people who make hackintosh netbooks will continue making hackintosh netbooks. People circumvented the boot process, I'm sure somehow someway someone will circumvent the processor disabling.

Hacking communities have been around for years and aren't going anywhere. Apple isn't going anywhere either, and I'm sure they won't be changing their policies anytime soon.
 
What's the big deal about this? Think about the alternative. Should Apple (and every other software maker, by extension) be required to release software that supports every computer processor currently in existence? Of course not. That would be ridiculous.

Thats not really the point. The only inhibitions keeping Snow Leopard from installing on my pc are completely artificial. I dont expect apple to support SL on the cell cpu, ppc, or anything other than the cpu arch they so choose, but the only reason it doesnt install on my pc is because apple put in a synthetic restriction to kill compatibility for the sole reason of forcing me to buy their overpriced hardware and contribute to their record quarterly profit.

What you are asking is similar to the BS argument "360 games cant play on my ps3! OMG IS THE SAME THING." But its not the same thing. 360 games cant physically run on a ps3. The processor has no idea how to handle the instructions in the 360 game's binaries. However, my core2quad can run the osx kernel just fine with 0 modifications. The only reason it doest work is because apple added a few lines of code that arent essential to the function of the OS.
 
Apple OS X's Terms Of Service state that you are not allowed to run the software on anything except genuine Apple hardware. I fail to see why that is so difficult to understand.

This is called "tying" and it has questionable legality, particularly in European Union countries. If an EULA contains illegal clauses such as this, it makes it legally invalid.
 
You care to explain how this sucks for the "CUSTOMERS"? What customers? The hackintoshers aren't customers, buying a $29 SL DVD and then hackining is totally against the license, these are not customers Apple wants. I just love how the hackintoshers call themselves "LEGIT" by actually buying a copy of OS X. Funny, what they are doing with it is NOT LEGIT.
Also, gimme a break, the majority of hackintoshers aren't even "CUSTOMERS", they are torrenting Leopard and SL so they aren't paying for crap. :p

They are no less legit than the Tiger users who are buying it, as recommended by Walt Mossberg in the Wall Street Journal.

Mark Booth said:
No matter how miniscule the impact, allowing the OS to be run on non-Apple hardware DOES cut into Apple's profits.
That isn't true. Even Microsoft realized tolerating a certain amount of piracy is good for business. The same is true in Apple's case. Their sales are generally increased. An exception would be on something like the Mac Pro, where power users realize how overpriced they are and go Hackintosh instead.
clarify: I am speaking to products, like OS, that have a network or lock-in effect, not to all types of digital products. Piracy of games or media is quite different.

Richard1028 said:
Somebody high in the food chain was so sure about the Atom that the supporting code was still included in SL. Which means the decision to use Atom processors was, "this close" to being fact. That's pretty freaking scary if you ask me.
If I wanted mid-nineties computing muscle in any device I'd just fire up my Acer tower with its Pentium 90.
Apple really worries me at times.
That is prudent planning, not scary. If they have a problem with whatever their Plan A chip is, they need a Plan B.
 
Ok let's say we agree its illegal, what should the penalty be? 5 years in jail, maybe 10? I don't know.

And is apple willing to pay for the cost in enforcing their own EULA on an individual basis?

That's a whole different matter, because punishment is relative to many circumstances. There are many things involved, like if you did it because you did not know, or you did it o purpose, and if it is civic or criminal matter, or many, many things.

But, there are two things that it is important to bear in mind:

1. How easy or how difficult it is to break the law does not make it legal.

If you put a hundred locks in your front door or if you put ten locks, it does not matter. If a burglar breaks in it, it has to be punished. Even if you left the door opened.

2. The enforcement of the law and the law are two different matters.

Just the fact, that is very expensive, or practically impossible to catch you, it does not make you innocent.
 
... .. ..

I think a lot of people here don't understand the law very well. Just because Apple says something is the case doesn't make it the case.

No, but an EULA is an agreement. It's an agreement between the user and manufacturer. That has legal implications as well. An EULA isn't just there for fun and games. You read the EULA and click "agree", you've entered into a contractual relationship with Apple. You break the contract, and Apple has rights to exercise available legal remedies.

Otherwise they could just write whatever the hell they wanted on that little print and people would be bound to, say, give their first child to Apple.

Now you're taking it to extremes with poor analogies. There's a a set of reasonable limits that Apple adheres to and that other manufacturers adhere to.

Why can't they write that? Not (just) because people wouldn't buy the software, but because you can't put that sort of thing in a contract -- can't in the sense that, a lawsuit would contest it and a judge would strike it down. What if Apple put it in right now; there would certainly be a period before a lawsuit -- does Apple own your first child during that period? Of course not: until it has been actually tested in court, a contract with novel characteristics exists in a bit of a legal limbo, not really validated as law. That is how EULA's currently exist in the US. But they have been tested in Europe -- and mostly found wanting. Thus the question of presumption -- what do you presume to be the case prior to the contract being tested in court -- is arguably that those EULA "contracts" are invalid until proven (in court) otherwise. At the very least, simply citing Apple's EULA claims in no way proves that those claims are legal.

Except that legal remedies are open to them in order to enforce the EULA.

To summarize: EULA is not yet law!

No, but it is enforceable under the law, with legal remedies being available to the manufacturer. You can certainly test an EULA for reasonable standards of expectation, but keep in mind that most EULAs meet such standards. Until that standard is tested you're in breach.

Not only is buying and installing your OS in a hackintosh not theft, not piracy, and harmless (except to Apple's business interests), it's not even a misdemeanor crime. So far, legally, it's nothing.

No, it's not nothing. You seem to think an EULA is meaningless. It isn't. It's an agreement, the breach of which makes certain remedies available to the manufacturer. They're not just empty words on a page that have nothing behind them.

Even if it were found to be illegal, my personal belief in private property trumps my allegiance to Apple's business interests

So if it is illegal you'd still do whatever you wanted because you feel you're right? Disturbing.

(Incidentally, there is a bit of nuance to this: Apple's claims would be much stronger if, like corporations do with Sun or MS, you explicitly signed a contract to license software. That's fairly kosher. So it's not that software can't be licensed per se. Rather, it's the "EU" part of EULA that's at issue -- that consumers are bound by whatever the corporation puts into the fine print merely by having bought the software. That's the part that's iffy and was struck down in Europe. And reasonably so: by that logic, everything we buy could have EULA's attached to it, specifying whatever, say, Target wanted about when and where we could wear their clothes. Perhaps that would be defensible if it was just Target -- but imagine if all clothing manufacturers did it. Agree to their contracts, or go naked... EULA's are very bad ideas.)

No one, that is, NO ONE selling computers or software in the current market is interested in seeing a legal precedent set that blows a hole in the principle of the EULA. Crazy.
 
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