Apple Discontinuing Java Installation Packages for Mac OS X?

[Inconsequential]

It means a Mac Never Get's to be on the Corporate Desktop. As there's no justification. Apple has again allowed the arguments of Mac's being the "Toy OS" to come to be true.

With just a 20% install base, no one is going to write obj-c, and then write a C# desktop app. There will only be one app: C#. Java will suffer, and Macs become irrelevant.

LMFAO. That's a rather big statement to make.

If someone makes an App for Windows if it's any good they make a OS X one themselves or someone else does it.

As I say, 99% will not be effected by this. And that 99% is where the money is, do you really think Apple will care about loosing 1% of it's user base???

But, as I said before, it makes me worry that in 5 years time if Apple will even have a Mac Pro anymore :/

 

[KikoPT]

Just food for thought ...

In the project i'm currently working on, in the room i'm usually located, at least 4 persons (in 8) use Apple laptops/desktops for Java devolopment ... Eclipse, GlassFish, OC4J, etc ...

This is scary news indeed ... Mostly because there is no real alternative and no comments by Oracle relating MacOS JVM support ...

This will probably stop me from using an Apple laptop for work ... Sad :/

 

[parapup]

Because JBOSS is so encumbered by Java licensing.

Yeah, try telling that to big Enterprise customers. You can run it at home but for Enterprise use you have to pay for at least support. You can pay RedHat for JBoss support but who will you call if the JVM has a problem? Larry. He will only take your call if you bought Java for Business License.

 

[macsmurf]

I'd be surprised if non-obj-c developers weren't a bigger piece of the pie than people on this forum seem to believe.

I think that the developers did a lot for Apple at that time but maybe Apple has moved beyond that. It's pretty clear that Apple is breaking up with us and the response is classic Kübler-Ross

 

[Corndog5595]

I think that the developers did a lot for Apple at that time but maybe Apple has moved beyond that. It's pretty clear that Apple is breaking up with us and the response is classic Kübler-Ross

Have you seen Xcode 4? They may be treating the devs a little poorly, but Apple definitely recognizes that they wouldn't be anything without the devs.

 

[deconstruct60]

From Java developer point of view I don't see any advantage of using Macs for Java development in X11, I might as well be using Ubuntu/Linux and have much better integrated development.

If all writing are jsp and J2EE stuff then all you need on your development machine is a local app server can run and locally debug/step/trace It is never going to invoke any part of the Java library that touches X11. The catch 22 with J2EE is that is layered on top of Java but the reality is that the vast majority of the GUI aspects of the library are never invoked in the "enterprise" java.

Sure if your IDE is also written Java that will have to interact with X11 but your "enterprise app" doesn't deal with it at all.

So why use Mac OS X ? Because when not writing code ... it is a better desktop. Unless you are some kind of obsessive compulsive... who cares if some of the windows are X11 ones and others are Cocoa ones and the screen widgets don't all match in color/texture. Frankly, in Linux desktops if invoke a variety of programs they aren't likely to either.

The advantage of using Mac for Java development was the tight integration between the OS and JavaVM - you really had to try hard to see the difference between Java apps and Native apps.

For the developer who is writting apps to deploy on desktop yes. But that isn't the majority of java coders.

It isn't so with Oracle VM on Linux and windows. And it can't be so with hypothetical Oracle JVM for OS X.

"Can't" is awfully strong to through out with no support. Pragmatically Oracle probably doesn't want to spend that much money, but can't ? Pfff, if it has been done, then it can be coded. It is just a matter of applying the resources. It isn't like Apple has sole access to magic fairy programmers that can do stuff no one else on the planet can do. Try "won't"

By the way it is not the VM that is the issue. It is is the bindings between Swing/AWT and the underlying graphics libraries. There are bound to be some semantic mismatches, but if work hard can minimize them.

http://www.developer.com/java/other...-and-SWT-A-Tale-of-Two-Java-GUI-Libraries.htm

Being Apple user for more than 20 years, I see this as Apple's stupidest move since firing Jobs back in 80s.

Come on? Pippin , $3K Newtons , ..... , this Spring killing off "all 3rd party libraries and only these 3 languages" on iOS (which has now partially retracted) , ....

More so, typical clumsy Apple stumbling around when it comes to developer technology.

Oracle may come out with a good Cocoa bound version over the long term. I just don't expect that to happen over the short term unless there has been a ton of work done in secret for over last 6-12 months.

Since there doesn't seem to be organization between Oracle and Apple most likely stop gap OpenJDK will like be rolled out as interim solution along with the last Apple effort being stretched over a long period of time.

 

[macsmurf]

Have you seen Xcode 4?

Non-objective C developers. Apple still love developers that cause consumers to buy more hardware.

 

[eeyoredragon]

I think that the developers did a lot for Apple at that time but maybe Apple has moved beyond that. It's pretty clear that Apple is breaking up with us and the response is classic Kübler-Ross

haha maybe. We'll see.

My only agitation is the lack of communication. It's clear to you perhaps, but it's not to me. In fact, it's very much not clear to me. That's what I don't like.

If they'd just say "Hey, no more Java. No one has planned to pick this up, and quite frankly, we don't care about non-obj-c developers anyway", I could just say "Oh, ok. Cya and good journey."

Honestly, the only things I'd really miss:
--Expose'
--A trackpad that's not useless.
--Mostly self-contained apps.
--A GUI that for the most part doesn't make me want to murder people.

While all nice to me, if I can't do my work on it, it's a moot point. I have no desire to dual boot or be forced to run another OS in a VM. Not to say I never do those things of course, but that I don't want to be forced to do that for something that takes up a considerable portion of my day.

Sure if your IDE is also written Java that will have to interact with X11 but your "enterprise app" doesn't deal with it at all.

So why use Mac OS X ? Because when not writing code ... it is a better desktop

Exactly this.

 

[AnalyzeThis]

I am not sure about Flash, but I will "hold door open" on Java' way out of Mac. I never used it on Mac anyway. I found only one useful java app BDSup2sub, but this is it.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Some people couldn't see the writing on the wall if it fell on them.

 

[Stella]

So essentially... nothing.

So for 99% of Apple users it means absolutely nothing that it's being removed.

Shame it's going to effect the other 1% but from a business point of view I see why. However what scares me most is that it's a downward spiral...

It does mean something - it means OSX is becoming marginalized - removing a chunk of users. If Apple wants OSX to become a toy OSX, they are heading in the right direction - only catering for the average user and no one else. I suppose that is why windows will hold its > 90% of user base and market share - because it caters for many types of users.

Now, this fear and uncertainty would disappear if Apple had coordinated with Oracle to announce OSX's continued Java support. But Apple doesn't communicate well about its future plans and shrouded in secrecy, which isn't helpful at all.

 

[macsmurf]

haha maybe. We'll see.

My only agitation is the lack of communication. It's clear to you perhaps, but it's not to me. In fact, it's very much not clear to me. That's what I don't like.

I'm not in any way supporting Apple in this. On the other hand it's maybe a bit naive to expect Apple to be very forthcoming with information.

This is again a sign that Apple is much more interested in the consumer market. In that market, secrecy has worked extremely well for Apple. In the enterprise market, secrecy on that level is unacceptable.

...And it seems clear to me but I hope to be very very wrong

 

[macsmurf]

Some people couldn't see the writing on the wall if it fell on them.

I would think that most people wouldn't be able to see the writing on a wall that just fell on them?

 

[dcorby23]

Sure if your IDE is also written Java that will have to interact with X11 but your "enterprise app" doesn't deal with it at all.

Of course my IDE will have to interact with X11. And if I am to interact with X11, I might go much cheaper with Ubuntu. No need for using Macs for that.

So why use Mac OS X ? Because when not writing code ... it is a better desktop.

Yes, it's better desktop. But I don't need to have 2 desktops, one that's paying my bill and other that is better.

Unless you are some kind of obsessive compulsive... who cares if some of the windows are X11 ones and others are Cocoa ones and the screen widgets don't all match in color/texture.

Someone who have to use it around 50 hours per week.

Frankly, in Linux desktops if invoke a variety of programs they aren't likely to either.

Used to be that way. In some distros, they are very similar. Not just in "look", but in "feel" too...

For the developer who is writting apps to deploy on desktop yes. But that isn't the majority of java coders.

Some people have been using Macs for Android development too. Andy Rubin for example. Even when he was talking ***** against Apple during some devs conference last summer, you could see MBP behind him...

That may be the reason why Apple is shutting down Java. Too bad Rubin & co will just switch to Linux.

It is just a matter of applying the resources. It isn't like Apple has sole access to magic fairy programmers that can do stuff no one else on the planet can do. Try "won't"

Sorry for english not being my native language...

Come on? Pippin , $3K Newtons , ..... , this Spring killing off "all 3rd party libraries and only these 3 languages" on iOS (which has now partially retracted) , ....

They retracted the last one... and haven't alienated their own customers with others (Pippin and overpriced Newtons). But that's exactly what they've done with this one.

Judging by betas and SoyLatte OpenJDK won't be the replacement for Apple's JVM. Can be for some server apps, but not for IDE's. Making OS X's X11 usable is just not worth the effort, I might as well buy Lenovo laptop instead and install Linux. Which is also going to affect my plan of buying 3G iPad.

 

[Phil A.]

I am not sure about Flash, but I will "hold door open" on Java' way out of Mac. I never used it on Mac anyway. I found only one useful java app BDSup2sub, but this is it.

Do you use the iTunes store?
Do you use Apple's website?
Do you use eBay?

All these (and thousands more web sites) are built using Java

People use Java much more than they think - maybe not Java Apps, but Java on the server is very, very common and that requires Java developers, many of whom use Macs (as has been said repeatedly on this thread, but still seems to be getting ignored)

 

[Corndog5595]

Do you use the iTunes store?
Do you use Apple's website?
Do you use eBay?

All these (and thousands more web sites) are built using Java

People use Java much more than they think - maybe not Java Apps, but Java on the server is very, very common and that requires Java developers, many of whom use Macs (as has been said repeatedly on this thread, but still seems to be getting ignored)

Then let Apple and every other company use Linux based servers; obviously that is the solution that works and that almost every company uses anyway. We don't hate java, we just don't care if you can't run Java apps on Mac.

 

[objc]

So those are the only choices? What a dichotomy! We're all either research scientists with sh**ty UI apps or we play Farmville!!!

Really?

It's obvious that's many, but not all, posters on this board take the attitude of, "I don't use it, so yeah, get rid of it!" As if they are representative of every Mac user out there. The comment's meaning wasn't 100% literal.

If it wasn't for X11, a number of people in my department wouldn't be able to run some of the research software they need on their Mac. Were that the case, some would be rewritten for Cocoa with ObjC, but many wouldn't. Hell, I'm sure many don't use Terminal, so why not just chuck that as well? The Bash shell isn't as pretty as the Finder.

I think your comment about sh**ty UIs just furthers the stereotype of the typical Mac user as some clueless person who only cares if it looks pretty.

 

[MacKeeperFanMod]

If Apple convince Oracle to pick up the maintenance of Java for the Mac platform, this may not be a bad thing. Java is maintained by oracle for Windows and Linux (not by Microsoft of the linux community), so if they take on one more, we might actually get more timely releases.

If Java goes away completely, then that could be a very bad thing. Many, many apps rely on Java, more so than many people realize. In business, webex, GoToMeeting, and similar all rely on Java. Many internal applications are developed in Java.

 

[AnalyzeThis]

Do you use the iTunes store?
Do you use Apple's website?
Do you use eBay?

All these (and thousands more web sites) are built using Java

People use Java much more than they think - maybe not Java Apps, but Java on the server is very, very common and that requires Java developers, many of whom use Macs (as has been said repeatedly on this thread, but still seems to be getting ignored)

Agreed, but MAC's targeting a consumer computer segment, not an enterprises. Lately, I am very grateful Apple even bothers with computers at all. Apple seems to ignore even Pros these days! Why would anyone expect them to be considerate of a few java enterprise developer's comfort?

 

[Phil A.]

Then let Apple and every other company use Linux based servers; obviously that is the solution that works and that almost every company uses anyway. We don't hate java, we just don't care if you can't run Java apps on Mac.

The point is that Java development has been a vector into businesses for Macs and OSX (because it makes a very, very good java development platform). If (and it's a big if) there is no Java support in OS X, those developers will move away from OS X.

This is as big a deal for Java Developers as dropping Final Cut Pro or Photoshop would be for those professionals that use them.

 

[dcorby23]

They still need someone to build those apps they are bragging about so much. And many of those apps use some kind of server-side part that's doing the real work. And those apps are almost exclusively written in Java. If you can't develop such apps on a Mac, you may soon as well stop developing for Mac/iOS at all. It can get too expensive if you need separate computers for iOS and Java developers.

 

[Mattie Num Nums]

Agreed, but MAC's targeting a consumer computer segment, not an enterprises. Lately, I am very grateful Apple even bothers with computers at all. Apple seems to ignore even Pros these days! Why would anyone expect them to be considerate of a few java enterprise developer's comfort?

Don't forget a lot of "pro's" work in an enterprise environment.

 

[Kristenn]

If you are all so worried about Oracle not developing Java for Mac for it's market share and what not why would they develop for Linux and not Mac OS X?

Linux has the smallest market share (maybe not in servers) but it wouldn't make sense for Oracle to avoid the Macintosh. Whats in it for them? Simple. A larger user base.

I see this as a good thing. Apple is too slow at releasing Java updates.

 

[racketeer71]

Some people couldn't see the writing on the wall if it fell on them.

2011: Bootcamp.

"Bootcamp was great in a transition period, but with our new powerful macs, people will just run Windows in Fusion/Parallels/VirtualBox".

2012: 3rd party apps distributed outside of Mac App Store

"We've had tremendous success with our Mac App Store. All of our customers like it, and therefore we have decided to annoy the renegade developers as much as possible. From now on, all applications downloaded outside Mac App Store will require 20 user confirmations that they're aware that this is downloaded outside Mac App Store. Think Vista warnings times 5. We encourage developers to use our App Store."

2013:

"Since objective-C is such a great language, we have decided that any applications not written in objective-C utilizing Cocoa in the Xcode IDE cannot be installed in the next OS X version."

2014:

"From now on, whenever somebody purchases Apple Hardware, they'll be required to pay a monthly rental fee for OS X. All their purchases are virtual and controlled by Apple. This enables people to be really creative in choosing which of the pre-approved applications they would like to buy today. And it makes for such a clean, comfy and family-friendly environment."

2015:

Steve Jobs dies.

2016:

Phil Schiller on stage: "It has been a tough heritage to carry on, since our great leader died last year. I have today launched a company wide initiative called: The return of sanity. I hope you'll help us, even though our great leader pissed you off for 7 years."

 

[Phil A.]

If you are all so worried about Oracle not developing Java for Mac for it's market share and what not why would they develop for Linux and not Mac OS X?

Linux has the smallest market share (maybe not in servers) but it wouldn't make sense for Oracle to avoid the Macintosh. Whats in it for them? Simple. A larger user base.

I see this as a good thing. Apple is too slow at releasing Java updates.

Quite simple, really: Java's dominance is in the enterprise space (predominantly Linux). Oracle will make virtually nothing financially by supporting Java on OS X because OS X is pretty much non-existant in the enterprise space.

Where OS X is used quite heavily for Java is by Java developers, but if Oracle don't support Java on OS X, the Java developers who currently use OS X aren't going to stop developing for Java, they're going to stop using OS X.

Effectively, Oracle have no incentive to support Java on OS X. If Sun were still independent, I'd agree with your assertion that this is a good thing, but Oracle aren't known for their altruistic nature and I can see them not bothering because "there's nothing in it for them".

Apart from that, unless Apple share their work on their current JVM / JDK, it will be a pretty big undertaking for Oracle to get Java running on OS X and integrated with Cocoa