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The Oracle lawsuit isn't going to go away, buddy.

...Thanks, but no thanks for trying to spread the same Oracle lawsuit FUD again - been done several times before, just presume Oracle has killed Android and move on. Mmkay?

Not so fast. Larry Ellison isn't going to let Google buy their way out of this one. You think Oracle needs a few extra million? You think Larry is squeezing Eric for a few bucks?

Think again. This isn't just another patent dispute. It's a clear-cut violation of the Java license agreement. Legal precedent is on Oracle's side. Android's days are numbered.

But really, you're right. This is off-topic. No more Android posts on this thread please.

Mmkay?
 
The JVM doesn´t scale. My code scales.

You're right, but I was trying to shut him up with the least amount of characters :)

The Apple fanboys make a lot of noise but it doesn't help that someone claims that Java is at the forefront of computer science. It isn't. It's beside the point, though.
 
Apart from all the IDEs (Eclipse, Netbeans etc.) here is one that non-developers have probably used - Vuze (Azureus) - http://azureus.sourceforge.net/.

But anyway for me and many others it is the ability to use OS X as a development platform that really counts - Java is still the most popular language that people get paid to write http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html.

I will try to be optimistic and hope that Oracle will step up and do a better job of supporting a Java VM on OS X than Apple (and if they do it will be because of the developers) - however Oracle's stewardship of Sun's IP so far has not impressed....

Eclipse, which is arguably one of the best development environments available and written in Java. (and to avoid any holy wars about dev environments, there are plenty of other excellent dev tools built in Java, but Eclipse happens to be my personal favourite ;))

The point here isn't whether the average user needs java apps on their desktop, it's about professional software developers who develop high end enterprise level systems that run (mainly) on Linux. OS X is a brilliant platform for developing java apps at the moment (Eclipse on my Mac runs significantly faster than on Windows).

If java isn't available on OS X (which is a big if, but the crux of this thread) then those developers are going to move to either Windows or Linux

Also, don't forget that many PHP developers also use Eclipse so no Java means they move too

So essentially... nothing.

So for 99% of Apple users it means absolutely nothing that it's being removed.

Shame it's going to effect the other 1% but from a business point of view I see why. However what scares me most is that it's a downward spiral...
 
This sums it all up.

Every time I have to run a Java app on Mac or Windows, the experience usually feels slow and clunky.

Write once, run everywhere is a just a dream.

Perfectly said. Apple is moving to eliminate inefficient legacy software like Flash and Java. At least in the consumer space. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple and Oracle have a deal for Snow Leopard Server and future Server builds of Mac OS though.
 
Larry _HAS_ ignored Java and so had Sun - that is on Mac OS X. There is NO major plus for Java on OSX when looking from Larry's POV - No one runs Server side apps on OSX and Larry doesn't make money selling you or me Java "apps" that run on the OS X desktop - he just doesn't care about it.

Larry doesn't get money form you making Java server side apps that don't use Oracle's middleware.

Same could be said of Windows? Have you NEVER heard of the words "Antitrust" and "Microsoft" together? Can you point out a single instance where post the Antitrust ruling Microsoft has done anything illegal to abuse their monopoly? Microsoft "banning" or "deprecating" or otherwise "paralyzing" Java in any way shape or form constitutes a violation of the Antitrust settlement. Plus they sell Server OS - many Windows Server installs exist because they run Java App Server - they are not penny wise and pound foolish.

Deprecating Java wont be seen as an antitrust issue. Blocking will. Apple and Microsoft so far have done neither. Though Microsoft have tried very hard to make a proprietary Java VM.
 
Perfectly said. Apple is moving to eliminate inefficient legacy software like Flash and Java. At least in the consumer space. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple and Oracle have a deal for Snow Leopard Server and future Server builds of Mac OS though.

Again, No, Java does what No Other Language does. It checks that it's classes and libraries are valid, and have not been hacked, that the files have not been Trojaned. Eventually, the languages that bring up the REAR, C and Obj-C will also do these tests.
 
To all the "calm down" people... here's the thing: Apple has not mentioned there being an alternative. Why would/should anyone assume Oracle will pick this up? There's no reason to assume that. Whether it makes business sense or not for Oracle to do so, there's zero reason to assume they'll do so.

The only information given out is "hey, we're not doing anymore JVM implementations." That's unacceptable. If Apple has a plan or more info for this, they should state it along with that message.

If they don't have a plan, that's pretty ballsy and reckless. Quite frankly, I don't appreciate recklessness in OS development.

When people were whining about the mac app store my thought on the matter was simply apathy... I mean if Apple stooped that low, it'd be a no-brainer decision for me to never buy anything from them again.

The JVM thing will be the same. No Java means I don't want it. And even if Oracle is picking this up, it's jaw droppingly stupid for Apple to not mention that if they knew or to wait to announce this until after Oracle announced they were picking it up.

I can't find a way to not be more than a little agitated about this news.
 
From Java developer point of view I don't see any advantage of using Macs for Java development in X11, I might as well be using Ubuntu/Linux and have much better integrated development. And much cheaper one. The advantage of using Mac for Java development was the tight integration between the OS and JavaVM - you really had to try hard to see the difference between Java apps and Native apps. It isn't so with Oracle VM on Linux and windows. And it can't be so with hypothetical Oracle JVM for OS X.

I think what Apple just did was to write off the Java developers community which was pretty big. It's bit scary to see whole community written off so easily. I mean, who's next. And who is going to write back end components of popular iOS apps? And on what platform? Being Apple user for more than 20 years, I see this as Apple's stupidest move since firing Jobs back in 80s.
 
Toy

So essentially... nothing.

So for 99% of Apple users it means absolutely nothing that it's being removed.

Shame it's going to effect the other 1% but from a business point of view I see why. However what scares me most is that it's a downward spiral...

It means a Mac Never Get's to be on the Corporate Desktop. As there's no justification. Apple has again allowed the arguments of Mac's being the "Toy OS" to come to be true.

With just a 20% install base, no one is going to write obj-c, and then write a C# desktop app. There will only be one app: C#. Java will suffer, and Macs become irrelevant.
 
It means a Mac Never Get's to be on the Corporate Desktop. As there's no justification. Apple has again allowed the arguments of Mac's being the "Toy OS" to come to be true.

With just a 20% install base, no one is going to write obj-c, and then write a C# desktop app. There will only be one app: C#. Java will suffer, and Macs become irrelevant.

So my laptop is just a toy because I don't use java apps on it or work in a business with it.
Loving your logic.
 
Larry doesn't get money form you making Java server side apps that don't use Oracle's middleware.

Yes they do. Any other middleware has to buy a license. Not as much, but nobody can really label their solution as "Official Java" that will pass muster in an Enterprise setting without paying Oracle money.

Oracle will left folks start out free but when you grow big enough that your server side java needs to scale that is when they will reel you into a profitable license.
 
I think what Apple just did was to write off the Java developers community which was pretty big. It's bit scary to see whole community written off so easily. I mean, who's next. And who is going to write back end components of popular iOS apps? And on what platform? Being Apple user for more than 20 years, I see this as Apple's stupidest move since firing Jobs back in 80s.

I'm not so sure. You could make the case that Apple gets a lot of developer influx from the iOS environments and that they simply don't need to take any special interest in enterprise developers anymore.
 
Vanity Laptops?

Java doesn't scale. The JVM scales.

This is what a J2EE system does:

- Server Side Components
- Distributed Objects
- Asynchronous Messaging
- Web Services
- Persistence
- Security
- Resource Pooling
- Concurrency
- Transactional Integrity

This is what a real web-business application needs.
If there's no JVM, then Glassfish can't run, and implement these features.
This doesn't just affect the Desktop, it also puts a crimp into server sales.
What does Apple become? Irrelevant.

No one programmer is going to get ANYWHERE near what Glassfish offers today.

But, maybe the goal is to just sell VANITY Laptops.
 
So my laptop is just a toy because ... or work in a business with it.
Loving your logic.
Well, yah, if you can't use it for "business"; it's a toy. It might be a toy you love, but it's a toy nonetheless. There's no reason to be agitated by that.

Anyway, anecdotal observation on my part... I've seen Apple expanding quite a lot lately, and from my experience it's been:

--Techie people migrating to it. (i.e. those insignificant developers that want a development platform that they also enjoy using)

--People being recommended Apple products (by those insignificant techie people).

In my personal experience... I started with the mac for educational development. After using it for awhile and really liking it, family members started getting them based on my recommendations. I take my laptop to work and do my development on that. People in the office (techie and non-techie but all business) started asking questions about it, and they started getting macs after my demonstrating that I can do all the development work we do on it without issue. I use Windows to access our decrepit source control system that we'll be replacing soon anyway. That's it.

I'd be surprised if non-obj-c developers weren't a bigger piece of the pie than people on this forum seem to believe.

If that's not the case, oh well. I guess there won't be much love lost on either side of the equation.
 
Remember when Microsoft stopped writing its own JVM? Unfortunately, Java is still around even after that. I'm sure whoever "owns" Java (I can't be bothered to keep track anymore) will step in and provide a Mac JVM.

And if they don't, so what? Out of the handful of Java apps I have run over the past year, none of them even require JVM 1.6 and are happy with version 1.5. People can still write apps based on 1.6 for years to come.
 
why the worry , apple made everything ready to pull out of mainstream computing by offering you to run windows /linux on your Mac with bootcamp, you want java/flash then install windows /linux under bootcamp ... sorted
the move towards app store like for iphone and ipad was unavoidable
OSX LION makes out of a iMac like i said ,in the past , ok meant more as a joke, because i don't particularly like the unibody design(but thats just my taste) ... a giant ipad
and they all work perfect together you can run the same apps you run on your new iPhone on your iPad , MacBooK Air (now)and on your iMac , you get everywhere the same features

and the pro Market is so small for apple , they make much more profits now already and much more in the future with the consumer products . Consumers are not interested in "how" a app works as long as they can surf the web , do up some holiday pictures in a slideshow or cut the movies they did in their holidays , send some emails ,watch their youtube or other sites on their apple products , as long as that works none of the consumers is complaining that the app is not java /flash based
consumers have accepted that a long time ago when Mac's had not been really suitable for gaming , some just played the couple games that had still been available for OSX , the others bought a gaming rig and went to windows for gaming .
Apple could convince at least some again that a iMac i7 is a good thing to play windows games on .
Even some windows users went Mac only to install windows and play games , because its "in" to own a iphone and iPad and iMac , as it just shows you got cash to spare for such status symbols

i have a old school friend like that he bought his last Mac i think in 2001/2002 i think it was a quicksilver, but soon afterwards he ditched it to buy a windows pc for gaming and the rest like chatting and emailing , surfing , ripping movies .....
He too bought in spring this year a iMac 27" i7 , after i told him that he can run windows on the new Mac's now(he didn't even know ) and the first thing he did after he got through the welcome screen of OSX was starting bootcamp and installed windows , and thats now 6 month ago and he never again did boot into OSX .
I did ask him why did you buy the iMac then, if you never run OSX , his answer was simple " for the same reason i bought the porsche , nobody did see the price tag on my gaming rig , but everybody knows what this big screen with the small apple on the front is worth "
 
Larry doesn't get money form you making Java server side apps that don't use Oracle's middleware.
Did you know that Oracle owns multiple most significant Java Middleware companies - BEA, Sun come to mind. Did you also know that they own Solaris and Oracle Linux? Oh and Larry sells Sun Gear too which runs what - mostly Java enterprise apps. If that isn't enough, Larry sells a Database with Java in it. So if anyone makes an enterprise application - it either uses Larry's middleware, Larry's OS, Larry's Sun Gear or Larry's DB - likely multiple of those. So Larry ends up making money no matter what.

Oh and Enterprise Java support for non-Solaris OSes isn't free either - Windows and Linux are the king there that earn Oracle support fees.

And even if an Enterprise takes totally free bits of Java space (very unlikely, btw) and does an app on them using Free OS and off the shelf hardware (again, unlikely) - Larry doesn't have to care about the corner case - he can let the 0.01% enjoy free Java as it doesn't put a dent in his business. He still has to put out Java for Solaris/Linux/Windows to make the most of his money. OSX - not so much.

Deprecating Java wont be seen as an antitrust issue. Blocking will. Apple and Microsoft so far have done neither. Though Microsoft have tried very hard to make a proprietary Java VM.
That's just wordplay - they can't really "block" it - they don't sell toys that can be easily locked up. Deprecating/Blocking doesn't matter - they can't hurt it in any way. Period.
 
I personally love this. I also don't want any Adobe AIR apps in the store. If it isn't written in Obj-C and compiled with Xcode, I don't want it. This includes X11 apps like GIMP too.

I don't _care_ what's in the Mac App Store. If it's decent, I'll use it.
If not, I won't. That doesn't mean I have a problem with the Mac
App Store, as long as the crazies that think we might eventually
be locked into it are wrong. There's a place for running what you
want, and there's also a place for those who want to get something
that's simple, inoffensive, politically correct, and problem-free.

My mom's got a clue (and a memory going back
to plugboards and punched cards); if she had a Mac, she wouldn't
need to restrict herself to the bland, safe, and stylistically blessed.
(Although she might choose to, to spend her time in ways other
than wrestling with cranky apps.)

OTOH, I do have other relatives with less clue (or less belief that
they could acquire clue), that would probably be best off with either
pen and paper, or with something in a nice sandbox.

All I care is that X11 apps and Java keep working. Vuze is written
in Java, and I like it fine, it's more informative and controllable than
anything prettier/native would likely be, and the interface, while
not 100% Apple-ish, is close enough not to be too much of a pain.

For X11 apps, another example: GIMP vs Seashore. Both have
pretty much the same guts, but Seashore has a native interface.
OTOH, it was simplified enough that it doesn't provide access
to a lot of the functionality of GIMP. My mind doesn't seem to
work in a way that makes image editing easy for me, regardless
of which tool I use. So for me, an easier tool with less features
doesn't have much point to it, because either one will be a pain
for me to use.

In either case, while I like the consistent interface of Apple's Mac
apps (and those of many 3rd party developers that choose to
do a good job of following the interface guidelines), I've used so much
different stuff over the years that I'll take functional over pretty any
time, if I can't have both at a price I'm willing to pay. Mainly,
I want all sorts of apps (both ".app" apps and otherwise) to
just run, preferably _without_ all sorts of prerequisites to download
and update separately first.

Java apps, while not able to be as lean as native code, don't
_need_ to be huge, slow pigs; that's the developer's fault, not
Java's. And Java doesn't crash all the time, like Flash does.
(not sure about power efficiency on a mobile device, but since a lot
of phones have long supported Java, it can't be that bad)

On balance, I suspect this is about getting rid of cross-platform
development environments, to funnel more traffic to (and money
from) the Mac App Store. Like most such approaches, I think it's
short-sighted, since building the customer base ensures the future,
while milking the customer for every possible penny today is likely
to reduce the customer base.
 
Yes they do. Any other middleware has to buy a license. Not as much, but nobody can really label their solution as "Official Java" that will pass muster in an Enterprise setting without paying Oracle money.

Oracle will left folks start out free but when you grow big enough that your server side java needs to scale that is when they will reel you into a profitable license.

Because JBOSS is so encumbered by Java licensing. :rolleyes:
 
This is what a J2EE system does:
...
This is what a real web-business application needs.
If there's no JVM, then Glassfish can't run, and implement these features.

I don't think this is the right place to argue about that. You said Java is at the forefront of computer science. It is not. The JVM is another matter entirely.

This doesn't just affect the Desktop, it also puts a crimp into server sales.
What does Apple become? Irrelevant.

As long as the consumer keeps buying Apple, OS X is relevant. Apple clearly care much more about the consumer space than the enterprise space. I think Apple care about developers that directly adds value to the platform by making iOS/OS X apps, and you and I ain't it.
 
I'm not so sure. You could make the case that Apple gets a lot of developer influx from the iOS environments and that they simply don't need to take any special interest in enterprise developers anymore.

Still, their AppStore will be written in Java as well as whole website and iTunes store ? They will use Ubuntu for developing it?
 
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