Apple Distributing Safari for Windows via iTunes

[clevin]

Mail.app is not a free app download available from Apple either. It's installed with the OS.
Not exactly a valid test.

well, now, did you mention this previously?

give me a list of apps that you think are valid for test and let me pick one for the test.

anyway. for the greater good of human kind, I deleted safari, cleared trash can. and guess what?

PS. do you really have any proof to support your statement?

 

[powermac_daddy]

i installed it on my windows side. i think i like firefox's interface better.

 

[Eraserhead]

I just did a test, I removed the mail.app, cleared the trash

where is notification of "availability"?

It does happen to iTunes and Safari though.

 

[clevin]

It does happen to iTunes and Safari though.

well,
1. safari maybe a crucial component of osx, but it serve no such purpose for windows users.

2. take a look at my above screenshot, I even rebooted my MB, I still don't see safari showing up?

3. Still, like I mentioned previously, this has a lot to do "normal" users are being tricked. Im not saying this type of practice don't exist, real player for windows, yahoo messenger with toolbar, AOL bundle are probably worse than this anyway. However, if apple wants to go down this road, I beg some OSX users stop bragging about Apple being "ethical".

4. I don't really worry about anything, if users install safari without knowing what it is, they won't use it anyway. It really serve no purpose other than download numbers.

 

[Eraserhead]

well,
1. safari maybe a crucial component of osx, but it serve no such purpose for windows users.

Its not, you can use Firefox to browse the web.

2. take a look at my above screenshot, I even rebooted my MB, I still don't see safari showing up?

My Dad never uses iTunes, but he still gets updates, though he does still have the application on his machine...

EDIT: Try installing the security patch and see what happens.

 

[clevin]

My Dad never uses iTunes, but he still gets updates, though he does still have the application on his machine...

Well, thats different from some people claimed previously

my test was done, because some people claimed that Mac software updater will notify users some "new app" even if users don't have older version of that app on their computer.

Thus what apple did with their windows version of software updater are just the same.

As you can see, when I deleted my mail.app, and then safari.app, i rebooted my computer, trash can is cleared, software updater didn't notify me that there are "new" apps of safari/mail available for my machine.

EDIT: Try installing the security patch and see what happens.

well, I doubt this has anything to do with safari, I saw that two days ago, same size, didn't do it. I might do it in 3 days, when I get faster connections.


EDIT: ahhh great, now webkit won't run neither, go download safari 3.1 from apple.com? 42MB!!! how bloat is it now?

PS. there is a term in windows world for this sneak installation, its called "Trojan horse".

 

[Virgil-TB2]

Wow, I am really disappointed in the MR members who are upset about Apple pushing Safari to Windows users via iTunes. This is a wonderful idea and it definitely helps the Mac community. Apple pushing Safari to the Windows world will definitely get more web developers to consider using Safari when building or rebuilding their websites so now Mac users can go to those sites and use Safari and we won't be graced with that ugly message "THIS SITE WILL ONLY WORK WITH A WINDOWS PC USING INTERNET EXPLORER". Sound familiar?
This is exactly what Bill Gates did, he pushed Windows in our faces which is why most of the world is forced to use it. It was a great strategy and Apple can't have the Macintosh as the underdog forever so please people on this forum understand the benefit of it for us Mac users or anyone using any other browser besides the dreaded I.E. We don't want to be slave to I.E. forever.

Yes, but it's a moral issue. You can sum up why this is a bad thing by simply referring to the truism, "the ends don't justify the means" (it never does). Wrong is wrong. It's as simple as that.

That being said, the whole issue is a bit of a "tempest in a teapot" (to use another hackneyed phrase.) Bottom line is that the whole act becomes instantly defensible if they simply unchecked that tick-box so that the default is *not* to install Safari.

It's okay to have a "new" program in a software updater because it's not reasonable to ask a company to devise an entirely secondary, identical program to install the "new" stuff. The name of the installer "Software Update" doesn't preclude putting new programs in there as well, but ticking them off by default on a list labelled "updates" is clearly misleading and wrong.

I would be okay with Safari showing up on the list every single time as long as it's not checked off as a default. This would probably the smart way for Apple to go also as you just *know* that the user is going to click it off sooner or later if it's there every time they update their other stuff. It would put Apple on more solid moral footing as well as achieving essentially the same result IMO.

Another thing to remember is that Apple has done far worse than this in the past (and thankfully backed down a bit after criticism). Remember it was only just over a year ago that if you upgraded Quicktime on the Mac it would automatically change all your settings and install a bunch of advertisements for itself and other programs as your default quicktime "home page." Then you had to manually go into the settings and delete the ads and re-set it to use your original settings.

Now *that* was big-time "in your face" offensive.

Almost Adobe-level offensive.

 

[Doctor Q]

Oooh - controversy!

Today in his blog, John Lilly (CEO of Mozilla) says

What Apple is doing now with their Apple Software Update on Windows is wrong. It undermines the trust relationship great companies have with their customers, and that's bad — not just for Apple, but for the security of the whole Web.

...

The problem here is that it lists Safari for getting an update — and has the "Install" box checked by default — even if you haven't ever installed Safari on your PC.

That's a problem because of the dynamic I described above — by and large, all software makers are trying to get users to trust us on updates, and so the likely behavior here is for users to just click "Install 2 items," which means that they've now installed a completely new piece of software, quite possibly completely unintentionally. Apple has made it incredibly easy — the default, even — for users to install ride along software that they didn't ask for, and maybe didn't want. This is wrong, and borders on malware distribution practices.​

 

[clevin]

Oooh - controversy!

Today in his blog, John Lilly (CEO of Mozilla) says

What Apple is doing now with their Apple Software Update on Windows is wrong. It undermines the trust relationship great companies have with their customers, and that's bad — not just for Apple, but for the security of the whole Web.

...

The problem here is that it lists Safari for getting an update — and has the "Install" box checked by default — even if you haven't ever installed Safari on your PC.

That's a problem because of the dynamic I described above — by and large, all software makers are trying to get users to trust us on updates, and so the likely behavior here is for users to just click "Install 2 items," which means that they've now installed a completely new piece of software, quite possibly completely unintentionally. Apple has made it incredibly easy — the default, even — for users to install ride along software that they didn't ask for, and maybe didn't want. This is wrong, and borders on malware distribution practices.​

he hit the nail on the head.

I guess you didn't realize, this was first discovered by "microsoftwatch"
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/operating_systems/apples_windows_invasion.html
it was picked up by betanews.com
http://www.betanews.com/article/App...sers_on_Windows_to_download_Safari/1206113171
cnet, computerworld, zdnet, OSnews. etc
and all the bloggers.

and guess what, most windows user hate it, some people call it trojan horse, malware, spy-ware style low road, ploy, hijack, terrible install practice

 

[HLdan]

The key word here is "pushing". I'm sorry but that's going to really piss off a lot of people and I can completely understand why. By all means give me the choice to download the application but NEVER select that option for me by default. Annoying users is no way to generate a larger market for either Safari or Macs. Sure, I'd like to see more adoption of Safari but shoving it the Windows market is not the way to do it. Firefox didn't need to do this so I don't see why Apple needs to either.

Hmm, amazing you as well as others on this forum (namely the Windows lovin' crowd) love to smack Apple in the butt for aggressively promoting their products but "conveniently" forget that the reason Windows has such a bigger marketshare is because Microsoft "PUSHED" Windows in everyone's face! Most people use Windows because they FORCED to. Apple is a multimedia company, outside of the music and movie making industry you are not FORCED to use their products. But of course you wouldn't dare say anything negative about your precious Microsoft.

 

[clevin]

but "conveniently" forget that the reason Windows has such a bigger marketshare is because Microsoft "PUSHED" Windows in everyone's face!

how? please re-introduce this history to me.

PS. is comparing to M$ the best defense you can think of?

 

[dejo]

and guess what, most windows user hate it, some people call it trojan horse, malware, spy-ware style low road, ploy, hijack, terrible install practice

And it's typical of the Windows side of things and atypical (and doesn't even happen, as you've proven, clevin) on the Mac OS X side of things. Apple is just giving you another reason to switch!

 

[HLdan]

You can say what you want, but this is a clear tactic by Apple grow Safari's install base.

Many on this forum seem to have forgotten that the majority of iTunes users are normal, non tech-savvy people who are just going to press "Update."

They're not going to uncheck Safari or suppress the update.

Now, they'll have Safari just like they have iTunes and QuickTime. Will they start using Safari as their default browser? Doubt it. Many won't even know it's installed.

I guess this allows Apple to tout Safari for Windows' growing install base at WWDC.

"NORMAL, NON TECH-SAVVY PEOPLE" Hmm, why don't you use the word you are trying to really use, you mean, "STUPID PEOPLE". I think the majority that would even accept the downloads from Software Update SHOULD know what they are downloading, if they are not then they are what you called, "NORMAL, NON-TECH-SAVVY PEOPLE" or in other words.....

how? please re-introduce this history to me.

PS. is comparing to M$ the best defense you can think of?

Yeah, because this forum buys from Apple but then talks crap about Apple as if Apple is purposely doing something to hurt them.

It's not about morals either, I'm tired of going to websites that don't cater to my browser preference and I think Apple is doing the right thing by being aggressive with Safari to solve this issue.

And based on your response, you just proved my point about accepting Microsoft's tactics.

 

[clevin]

And it's typical of the Windows side of things and atypical (and doesn't even happen, as you've proven, clevin) on the Mac OS X side of things. Apple is just giving you another reason to switch!

honestly, honestly, honestly, IMHO, apple is digging a big hole for itself. It can't be good doing this, its more realistic to think windows users will be pissed than to think they will be converted this way.

We will see. But we need "change" in this greedy business world. Apple, M$, Real, Yahoo, all pretty much the same.

Yeah, because this forum buys from Apple but then talks crap about Apple as if Apple is purposely doing something to hurt them.

huh, who is paying who? customers should not complain? Jesus, thats some extreme view if you ask me

It's not about morals either, I'm tired of going to websites that don't cater to my browser preference and I think Apple is doing the right thing by being aggressive with Safari to solve this issue.

And based on your response, you just proved my point about accepting Microsoft's tactics.

well, I m still waiting for you to explain how M$ occupied market by pushing their windows to users' face

And really, if you think apple is so much better, you should not compare it to M$ in the first place. "M$ does this, so apple should do this too!" if so, bash them both, or, don't bash neither of them.

 

[Kar98]

you can use Firefox to browse the web.

Sure, but all context items all over the OS and in third party apps refer to Safari. Like for example in Unison, you can click on a link and it will open in Firefox. But right-click on a phrase and select "search in Google" and Safari will start up....Hang on...yep. Same in Mail.

 

[Kar98]

well, I m still waiting for you to explain how M$ occupied market by pushing their windows to users' face

You must be new. Back in the day when rocks were soft and animals could talk (late 1980s, early 1990s), Microsoft /did/ force their OS on buyers through various and sundry schemes.

 

[dejo]

honestly, honestly, honestly, IMHO, apple is digging a big hole for itself. It can't be good doing this, its more realistic to think windows users will be pissed than to think they will be converted this way.

Actually, I bet the average Windows user doesn't give flying ****. Once again I think it is just the geeks and the reporters who cover the geek-world that are up in arms about this. But if I see this story being covered on the nightly news I will admit I was wrong.

I do think it's a little strange what Apple is doing here but no stranger than when they used to add iTunes and QuickTime to my Quick Tray without my permission whenever I installed a new version of those applications.

We will see. But we need "change" in this greedy business world. Apple, M$, Real, Yahoo, all pretty much the same.

Damn, those greedy business people. Where are all the communists?!

 

[72930]

This is plain wrong, they could have some advertising or something, but having it in an 'update' is just a bit too much. However, I do not think its comparable to the situation decades ago with Windows - Most people knew of Windows, and it was being force fed to them, while most people have no clue what Safari is and its being offered to them (albeit in an in-your-face manner).

 

[HLdan]

well, I m still waiting for you to explain how M$ occupied market by pushing their windows to users' face

And really, if you think apple is so much better, you should not compare it to M$ in the first place. "M$ does this, so apple should do this too!" if so, bash them both, or, don't bash neither of them.

Firstly, maybe you should watch The Pirates of Silicon Valley and that will answer your question.

Where did I say, Apple is so much better?

Umm, excuse me but if you think the reason for Windows having such a high marketshare is because it was the OS of choice you are dead wrong. It was pushed in our faces just as MS packaged I.E. into Windows and we couldn't even delete it.
If you are a Windows user I can see why could care less and why you seem to defend the almighty Microsoft (the company that could do no wrong) but many Mac users KNOW how frustrating it is to visit I.E. only websites and then get pissed at Apple for not making Safari work better with those sites. The only way to rectify the issue is get more people using Safari just as Microsoft forced us into I.E.

If you think things will get better in the Mac world (or even Windows users that want to use other browsers) by leaving people the choice to decide to visit Apple's website and download Safari it ain't gonna happen.

I can tell you've never worked in sales, you don't wait for the customer to choose to walk up to you and ask to buy a Plasma TV, you have to go after the customer to sell it to them.

 

[clevin]

Damn, those greedy business people. Where are all the communists?!

Cuba!

You must be new. Back in the day when rocks were soft and animals could talk (late 1980s, early 1990s), Microsoft /did/ force their OS on buyers through various and sundry schemes.

rocks are never soft, unless you are talking about some sedimentary rocks

I admit I knew windows from windows 95, so I might indeed not familiar with all the things you mentioned.

However, I do think there has been a greater development of users' opinion, more and more, users are against this type of practice. RealNetworks, AOL, are all but abandoned by many ppl, So even if 17 years ago, this was fine, right now, its not. Apple should be running like a modern company, not in a 17 years old fashion.

It still comes down to a simple fact, you can't bashing M$ on one hand, and employ same tactic on the other hand. Its just not going to convince anybody.

Firstly, maybe you should watch The Pirates of Silicon Valley and that will answer your question.

Where did I say, Apple is so much better?

its good to know you position on this point, indeed

Umm, excuse me but if you think the reason for Windows having such a high marketshare is because it was the OS of choice you are dead wrong. It was pushed in our faces just as MS packaged I.E. into Windows and we couldn't even delete it.

IE? windows? is there some misunderstanding here?

If you are a Windows user I can see why could care less and why you seem to defend the almighty Microsoft (the company that could do no wrong) but many Mac users KNOW how frustrating it is to visit I.E. only websites and then get pissed at Apple for not making Safari work better with those sites. The only way to rectify the issue is get more people using Safari just as Microsoft forced us into I.E.

You can find out if Im a windows user by reading my previous posts.
you are basically arguing "revenge" "play dirty with dirty player"...fine. one simple remind, ppl are getting more fed up with dirty play in recent years, and nice player like google, firefox are getting rewarded for playing fair.

If you think things will get better in the Mac world (or even Windows users that want to use other browsers) by leaving people the choice to decide to visit Apple's website and download Safari it ain't gonna happen.

I can tell you've never worked in sales, you don't wait for the customer to choose to walk up to you and ask to buy a Plasma TV, you have to go after the customer to sell it to them.

working in sales does not give anybody better or worse judgement on the fairness of dirty practice.

 

[Kar98]

you can't bashing M$ on one hand, and employ same tactic on the other hand. Its just not going to convince anybody.

Ha, I can bash everybody

 

[clevin]

Ha, I can bash everybody

sure you can. just don't expect people to believe then.

 

[Tosser]

Sure, but all context items all over the OS and in third party apps refer to Safari. Like for example in Unison, you can click on a link and it will open in Firefox. But right-click on a phrase and select "search in Google" and Safari will start up....Hang on...yep. Same in Mail.

Open Safari=>Preferences=>General=>Select Firefox as default browser=>click a link in Mail.app again.

You can propably do the same from within Firefox.

 

[Kar98]

Open Safari=>Preferences=>General=>Select Firefox as default browser=>click a link in Mail.app again.

You can propably do the same from within Firefox.

Read again what I wrote.

 

[HLdan]

you are basically arguing "revenge" "play dirty with dirty player"...fine. one simple remind, ppl are getting more fed up with dirty play in recent years, and nice player like google, firefox are getting rewarded for playing fair.

working in sales does not give anybody better or worse judgement on the fairness of dirty practice.

Dirty Practice huh? Now it's "Dirty"? Your choice of words is getting more laughable for every one of your posts.

So what would be your ideal way for Apple to get Safari in more computer users faces to increase marketshare so we can freely use any web browser without facing the dreaded "Sorry I.E. Only" without playing "Dirty". Waiting for people to go to the website to download it ain't gonna solve Jack Crap.

Did you seemingly forget about Google's self-installing browser toolbars? Is that playing nice?
Don't worry, I won't reply anymore because I realize I'm talking to a brick wall.