Apple Employees Continue to Fight Return to Campuses and Push for Better Remote Working Options

[Analog Kid]

huh? There are NO single family homes under $1.6M in Cupertino, as clearly shown. And Cupertino is the area defined in the quote. Twenty miles? That's many, many cities, and not what was stated in the article.

You’re not even meeting your own pedantic requirements. The quote says “housing” not single family homes.

To put it in perspective, Apple Park itself is barely in Cupertino itself. 3 sides of the campus are on the Cupertino city limit. There are no controlled checkpoints entering Cupertino and you can cross the border without needing to produce documentation.

20 miles is a relatively short commute, especially when both Apple Park and One Infinite loop are so close to highway exits. Apple has offices throughout the area, not only in Cupertino. By “many, many cities”, you mean you’d have to take the freeway through 2 or 3 suburbs to get to work…

Here’s Apple Park and the Cupertino city limit shown in blue:

 

[ruka.snow]

The Fortune 500 won’t disappear anytime soon. Maybe small companies with non-flexible wfh ideas. But top talent can be replaced. Nobody is indispensable.

It works both ways, no company is irreplaceable for a talented employee. Some folks seem to have this daft idea that companies will get staff and retain them in the best positions even if the company treats them like garbage. The top employees will leave and with them goes all decades of specialised knowledge. If you want to be a successful business you'll hire the best and you'll know that when hiring the interview works both ways, the contract can be altered and agreed upon by both parties before signing, and everything is on the table. It seems a lot of folks here would ask: how high, when asked to jump.

 

[ruka.snow]

You’re not even meeting your own pedantic requirements. The quote says “housing” not single family homes.

To put it in perspective, Apple Park itself is barely in Cupertino itself. 3 sides of the campus are on the Cupertino city limit. There are no controlled checkpoints entering Cupertino and you can cross the border without needing to produce documentation.

20 miles is a relatively short commute, especially when both Apple Park and One Infinite loop are so close to highway exits. Apple has offices throughout the area, not only in Cupertino. By “many, many cities”, you mean you’d have to take the freeway through 2 or 3 suburbs to get to work…

Here’s Apple Park and the Cupertino city limit shown in blue:

View attachment 1809290

A $200,000 caravan... why would anyone want to live in such poor conditions?

 

[ruka.snow]

There is nothing “outdated” about being around other people and collaborating in real life. It has no substitute. Apple is not the kind of company you choose to go to work for if you don’t want to talk to anyone or see anyone. If these people decide to leave, others who actually like interacting with other people by choice will fill the gaps and Apple will end up even better off.

The pandemic has highlighted all the people who never really wanted to be at work in the first place, and its also highlighted the people who love to be around others. The former never really had their hearts in it and they could have been the reason why Apple isn’t performing as well as it should. Passionate people, people who Apple seek, crave interaction and dealing with others face-to-face. This is the best time ever to weed out heel-draggers.

So you want to get rid of all the people that do their job in favour of those that natter all day? You can't imagine the possibility that people are more productive working from home without being bothered by co-workers? That when collaboration is needed, that is is much more efficient over Slack than pulling people into a meeting room?

 

[I7guy]

It works both ways, no company is irreplaceable for a talented employee. Some folks seem to have this daft idea that companies will get staff and retain them in the best positions even if the company treats them like garbage. The top employees will leave and with them goes all decades of specialised knowledge. If you want to be a successful business you'll hire the best and you'll know that when hiring the interview works both ways, the contract can be altered and agreed upon by both parties before signing, and everything is on the table. It seems a lot of folks here would ask: how high, when asked to jump.

Yep, some examples. Scott forstall. Jony Ive. Apple has done exceedingly well since those departures. Examples of top employees leaving and apple has continued to be successful. Most businesses (especially fortune 500) will be successful after the mythical “top” employees leave.

Companies are under no obligation to kowtow to demands of difficult employees, even ones that may be “top employees”.

 

[Abazigal]

I’ve seen people on this site take some out there positions in order to defend a faceless, greedy behemoth just because they make the phone they like, but the thinly veiled vitriol expressed against workers who don’t want to go back to the office and have proved they don’t need to feels plainly cruel.

What I am seeing is the proponents of working from home turn this in to a tribal issue. Once again, it’s the whole “you are either with us or against us” mentality all over again. It doesn’t matter that Apple may have legitimate reasons to want people to come back to the campus, or that work is more than just a checklist of tasks to be completed, and also entails transfer of ideas and skills.

It must be because I enjoy sucking Apple’s teat, and not because I feel that working from home is more about coping with the current pandemic situation, and not the revolution that people who hate commuting to work are looking for. I legitimately do not think that Apple (in its current state) is designed to thrive under such a decentralised structure, and yes, I don’t see how pointing out the possible pitfalls of embracing WFH for Apple is somehow even controversial.

It’s like people don’t even want to look beyond their own noses and acknowledge that just because they don’t experience any issues with WFH doesn’t mean there are none. It just means that the issues either get kicked down the road, or taichi’ed to someone else.

I still believe that a hybrid approach is the best compromise, and if people are upset that the need to still report back to the office for meetings every now and then prevents them from say, settling down in another state while still being able to enjoy Silicon Valley level pay, I really don’t know what else to say.

 

[Abazigal]

It works both ways, no company is irreplaceable for a talented employee. Some folks seem to have this daft idea that companies will get staff and retain them in the best positions even if the company treats them like garbage. The top employees will leave and with them goes all decades of specialised knowledge. If you want to be a successful business you'll hire the best and you'll know that when hiring the interview works both ways, the contract can be altered and agreed upon by both parties before signing, and everything is on the table. It seems a lot of folks here would ask: how high, when asked to jump.

I think there’s a fine line between denying people working from home privileges (for legitimate reasons) and treating them like outright garbage.

And you are right that hiring goes both ways, and if this is the attitude the employee brings to the company on day one, then I can only wish him all the best in his next job and that the company has a better time managing him.

 

[James3000]

*Throws in two cents*

I don’t see why this debate gets so heated. The employees are perfectly entitled to ask for this and to threaten to leave, likewise Apple is absolutely right to make a decision and will have to accept the consequences of that.

Am I being naive? That was my experience with my employer. It should be a friendly conversation, power to them both.

I don’t think anyone is wrong here. It’s more interesting than controversial or polarising, surely?

There doesn’t always have to be a bad guy.

 

[vipergts2207]

You’re not even meeting your own pedantic requirements. The quote says “housing” not single family homes.

To put it in perspective, Apple Park itself is barely in Cupertino itself. 3 sides of the campus are on the Cupertino city limit. There are no controlled checkpoints entering Cupertino and you can cross the border without needing to produce documentation.

20 miles is a relatively short commute, especially when both Apple Park and One Infinite loop are so close to highway exits. Apple has offices throughout the area, not only in Cupertino. By “many, many cities”, you mean you’d have to take the freeway through 2 or 3 suburbs to get to work…

Here’s Apple Park and the Cupertino city limit shown in blue:

View attachment 1809290

That’s extremely disingenuous. That $210k trailer, which will probably go for over list price, doesn’t include the $2380/month lot rent.

‘It’s absolute desperation:’ Mobile park residents say rent increases threaten one of Silicon Valley’s last affordable housing options

Residents of the Sunnyvale mobile home park say lot rent increases for new residents have made their homes unsellable

www.mercurynews.com

That’s another $850k over a 30 year mortgage, without even accounting for the lot rent increases that would certainly come in that time period.

 

[Analog Kid]

A $200,000 caravan... why would anyone want to live in such poor conditions?

Poor by what standards? I suppose I can’t give a reason as to why, but obviously people do. Maybe the weather, maybe the job opportunities, maybe the chance to live and work in a highly educated community, maybe the ethnic diversity, maybe the diversity of cuisine that brings, maybe….

I used to wonder why people pay first class airfare when I can get to the same place in the same time at a tenth the cost— then it dawned on me that if you’re making 20 times my salary then paying 10 times as much for a more comfortable seat may not seem as painful. So $200k for what you can get in Missouri for $50k might not be that bad on a California salary.

So you want to get rid of all the people that do their job in favour of those that natter all day? You can't imagine the possibility that people are more productive working from home without being bothered by co-workers? That when collaboration is needed, that is is much more efficient over Slack than pulling people into a meeting room?

I’m always amazed how many people think the world discovered some hidden secret to productivity. Cities have been the engine of innovation and economic activity for centuries, and Zoom isn’t going to suddenly turn that on its head. Paper over some of the challenges? Sure. Make it easier to collaborate when other factors make collocation impossible? Ok. But I’m guessing that after people toy with WFH and hybrid models for a little while we’ll all come to remember what we already know— decisions are made by the people in the room, and you can work from home Wednesdays and call into the meetings but you won’t be in the room when the laptops close and those last few details are discussed. Sooner or later the more ambitious will want to be there for that, and they’ll take your promotion in the bargain. Slack doesn’t substitute for face time with the boss.

 

[Analog Kid]

That’s extremely disingenuous. That $210k trailer, which will probably go for over list price, doesn’t include the $2380/month lot rent.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/05...licon-valleys-last-affordable-housing-option/

That’s another $850k over a 30 year mortgage, without even accounting for the lot rent increases that would certainly come in that time period.

My point was the map, not the results on the left. There are plenty of options less than $1.6m— that’s not disingenuous at all. It is disingenuous though to cherry pick just one of those and try To make a counter example of it.

The some article you linked says units are selling below list, not over, and that lot rents across the street are up to $1500 cheaper.

 

[vipergts2207]

My point was the map, not the results on the left. There are plenty of options less than $1.6m— that’s not disingenuous at all. It is disingenuous though to cherry pick just one of those and try To make a counter example of it.

The some article you linked says units are selling below list, not over, and that lot rents across the street are up to $1500 cheaper.

King of weird to use realtor.com for a map, but ok. And with lot rents $1500/month cheaper, how much more are the trailers going for then? Total cost is still probably similar. There’s no ‘cheat code’ for this one.

 

[Ethosik]

Poor by what standards? I suppose I can’t give a reason as to why, but obviously people do. Maybe the weather, maybe the job opportunities, maybe the chance to live and work in a highly educated community, maybe the ethnic diversity, maybe the diversity of cuisine that brings, maybe….

I used to wonder why people pay first class airfare when I can get to the same place in the same time at a tenth the cost— then it dawned on me that if you’re making 20 times my salary then paying 10 times as much for a more comfortable seat may not seem as painful. So $200k for what you can get in Missouri for $50k might not be that bad on a California salary.


I’m always amazed how many people think the world discovered some hidden secret to productivity. Cities have been the engine of innovation and economic activity for centuries, and Zoom isn’t going to suddenly turn that on its head. Paper over some of the challenges? Sure. Make it easier to collaborate when other factors make collocation impossible? Ok. But I’m guessing that after people toy with WFH and hybrid models for a little while we’ll all come to remember what we already know— decisions are made by the people in the room, and you can work from home Wednesdays and call into the meetings but you won’t be in the room when the laptops close and those last few details are discussed. Sooner or later the more ambitious will want to be there for that, and they’ll take your promotion in the bargain. Slack doesn’t substitute for face time with the boss.

Being in a room physically doesn’t make decisions. But being able to collaborate with the right tools, even big decisions can be made remotely.

 

[Steve Adams]

It works both ways, no company is irreplaceable for a talented employee. Some folks seem to have this daft idea that companies will get staff and retain them in the best positions even if the company treats them like garbage. The top employees will leave and with them goes all decades of specialised knowledge. If you want to be a successful business you'll hire the best and you'll know that when hiring the interview works both ways, the contract can be altered and agreed upon by both parties before signing, and everything is on the table. It seems a lot of folks here would ask: how high, when asked to jump.

Agreed 100 percent. I was working a job previously and in the interview I told the "boss" My family comes first. Before work, before you before ANYTHING. My wife and 2 sons are NUMBER 1. He tested that rule one day and found out fast that I will leave wherever I am and go to my family. work is everywhere. my family is NOT. I quit 2 days later.

 

[Steve Adams]

Yep, some examples. Scott forstall. Jony Ive. Apple has done exceedingly well since those departures. Examples of top employees leaving and apple has continued to be successful. Most businesses (especially fortune 500) will be successful after the mythical “top” employees leave.

Companies are under no obligation to kowtow to demands of difficult employees, even ones that may be “top employees”.

As much as I think Johnny's designs were terrible....I am sure he would never let that abomination called the magsafe battery out into the wild.

 

[I7guy]

Being in a room physically doesn’t make decisions. But being able to collaborate with the right tools, even big decisions can be made remotely.

Straw man. In this big world of ours, it is not being said, big business decisions cannot be made over zoom. What some (at least me) on this board is saying:
- some employees can work perfectly fine home, it depends on the job, company, department etc.
- employees don't necessarily have the best birds eye view of large companies, unless some ceos here are masquerading as MR posters
- some companies have a culture of collaboration and every company is different
- it's okay for companies to let go of the difficult "top talent" if they are becoming a management headache

Agreed 100 percent. I was working a job previously and in the interview I told the "boss" My family comes first. Before work, before you before ANYTHING. My wife and 2 sons are NUMBER 1. He tested that rule one day and found out fast that I will leave wherever I am and go to my family. work is everywhere. my family is NOT. I quit 2 days later.

One doesn't get to be "top talent" by putting their families interest first day after day, especially if one is a mid-level manager pulling in 300-700K. For those people a corporate job may not be suitable. My family is #1 also, but I have a great work/life balance.

 

[Ethosik]

Straw man. In this big world of ours, it is not being said, big business decisions cannot be made over zoom. What some (at least me) on this board is saying:
- some employees can work perfectly fine home, it depends on the job, company, department etc.
- employees don't necessarily have the best birds eye view of large companies, unless some ceos here are masquerading as MR posters
- some companies have a culture of collaboration and every company is different
- it's okay for companies to let go of the difficult "top talent" if they are becoming a management headache

One doesn't get to be "top talent" by putting their families interest first day after day, especially if one is a mid-level manager pulling in 300-700K. For those people a corporate job may not be suitable. My family is #1 also, but I have a great work/life balance.

Not sure how it’s straw man but whatever. Big decisions are made all the time on Zoom, or phone calls, or many other communication methods. It’s not ALWAYS on-site in person. We gained many new major clients where our sales team operated exclusively with Zoom. You know clients that send us millions of dollars a year, it’s no small decision.

And we are not talking about Tim Cook or upper level staff here. It’s mostly grunt workers which isn’t involved in major decisions anyway.

 

[Analog Kid]

King of weird to use realtor.com for a map, but ok. And with lot rents $1500/month cheaper, how much more are the trailers going for then? Total cost is still probably similar. There’s no ‘cheat code’ for this one.

Actually what’s weird is that you’ve been here long enough to acquire a 68030 rating but haven’t learned to trace a thread back and understand what the person you are interrupting was actually responding to. Here’s a hint: I didn’t start with the realtor.com data.

I’m also assuming you didn’t read the article you linked any further than you thought was necessary for a gotcha post because you could start with the data in the article rather than asking me a bunch of hypotheticals. Likewise on seeking comparables— I’m pretty sure you just threw the “total cost is comparable” line out there without engaging any executive function but since it has nothing to do with my actual point I’m not interested in doing the research. I’m not in the business of selling, or renting lots for, manufactured homes.

 

[I7guy]

Not sure how it’s straw man but whatever. Big decisions are made all the time on Zoom, or phone calls, or many other communication methods. It’s not ALWAYS on-site in person. We gained many new major clients where our sales team operated exclusively with Zoom. You know clients that send us millions of dollars a year, it’s no small decision.

And we are not talking about Tim Cook or upper level staff here. It’s mostly grunt workers which isn’t involved in major decisions anyway.

Not sure what the point is. Big decisions have been made on telephones for decades. That is not the talking point. Nor is an increase in business during lockdown the talking point. The talking point is 100% WFH sustainable far out in the future and how does management view this. Apple obviously has a specific opinion on this matter. Other companies also have specific opinions.

If you're company is 100% WFH forever. more power to you, but those companies who are recalling employees to the office it is their right to. Employees that disagree to such an extent they would leave, then the company is better off without them.

 

[Ethosik]

Not sure what the point is. Big decisions have been made on telephones for decades. That is not the talking point. Nor is an increase in business during lockdown the talking point. The talking point is 100% WFH sustainable far out in the future and how does management view this. Apple obviously has a specific opinion on this matter. Other companies also have specific opinions.

If you're company is 100% WFH forever. more power to you, but those companies who are recalling employees to the office it is their right to. Employees that disagree to such an extent they would leave, then the company is better off without them.

So I still don’t understand your point where you said decisions are made in person and not in Zoom. Yet you just said decisions have been made via telephone for decades. That’s contradicting your statement. Do decisions need to be made in person or not?

No the company is not better off without them. It costs money to hire and train someone new.

 

[I7guy]

So I still don’t understand your point where you said decisions are made in person and not in Zoom. Yet you just said decisions have been made via telephone for decades. That’s contradicting your statement. Do decisions need to be made in person or not?

It depends doesn't it. Would one propose over the telephone? And your right I forgot the word "some" in my original post. Would 100% of "big decisions" be made over the phone. It depends on "big" and what's involved. What's "big" to your company, may be small potatoes to Apple.

No the company is not better off without them. It costs money to hire and train someone new.

I disagree. A disgruntled employee costs more in corporate dollars than it takes to train a potential, future happy employee of the same caliber.

 

[Analog Kid]

Being in a room physically doesn’t make decisions. But being able to collaborate with the right tools, even big decisions can be made remotely.

Of course. Decisions don’t happen because people stand in a room. Big decisions can be made by carrier pigeon or any other collaboration technology.

But you’re setting the bar as low as possible to make your point. Decisions can be made. We’ve seen that for the past year and a half. My points were who has influence and whether the best decision is being made.

Does WFH help with work life balance? For some people it does. It’s helped mine for sure. Does it lead to optimal business performance? That‘s a different question entirely. Humans are social creatures and we’ve developed very specific ways of communicating, many of which we’re not even consciously aware of. I find it a bit optimistic to think Covid somehow taught us to hack millions of years of human evolution with an app. If I’m working from home, and my equally competent coworker is in the office with our boss, who is going to have more influence? Are the best possible decisions being made if they’re influenced in part by where the information is coming from rather than the correctness of it? Will things slip through the cracks if there’s even the slightest additional friction in information sharing?

Collaboration technologies aren‘t useless, but they’re not a panacea either.

 

[Abazigal]

No the company is not better off without them. It costs money to hire and train someone new.

Short term pain for long term gain.

 

[RedRage]

Agreed 100 percent. I was working a job previously and in the interview I told the "boss" My family comes first. Before work, before you before ANYTHING. My wife and 2 sons are NUMBER 1. He tested that rule one day and found out fast that I will leave wherever I am and go to my family. work is everywhere. my family is NOT. I quit 2 days later.

Well, it sounds like these people need to take your advice and quit. Why work for a terrible company with a terrible CEO like Tim Apple?

 

[Ethosik]

Short term pain for long term gain.

You probably have never seen the breakdown on training and bringing someone up to speed. It is pretty much double if not triple someone's salary for at LEAST 6 months. Shadowing another co-worker leads to the experienced co-worker to slow down as well.