Apple Expects Appeal of Irish Tax Ruling to Take 'Several Years' With No Impact on Near-Term Financial Results

[Waxhead138]

Pay your ****ing taxes. I pay mine.

I pay mine too...with the help of Turbo Tax. Looking for breaks isn't cheating.

The analogy is loose, I'll give you that....but instead of Turbo Tax assisting Apple, they had the backing and blessing of a government if I understand this directly. So who broke the law?

I'm not defending this on ethical grounds. There is no doubt some shadiness behind letting them only pay 2%, but if the taxman tomorrow tells me I can have a significant discount on taxes paid out of my pocket, you bet I'm going to take them up on it. Change the law if there is trouble with it, and IMO that is the source of the problem. The even bigger picture here is the precedent set though. That's the real issue...Apple is worried about 14 billion, a lot of other companies are sitting back praying they aren't next and / or the appeals process washes this away.

 

[MRU]

Just curious... how much cash do they have stored in the bank again?

Over 200 billion. with 20 billion in cash .....

 

[Eraserhead]

Except the EU itself is hardly popular in the EU itself right now, and it could also come across as "why the hell is the EU interfering in the tax laws of a member state? Shouldn't they have the right to do whatever they want? A lot of people feel the EU is interfering too much. So it could go either way really.

Because corporations have to be taxed at a multinational level.

 

[MRU]

#irexit now.

Never going to happen. Unlike the British, the Irish aren't so short sighted

 

[MacSince1985]

It was simply a joke. If Apple is breaking the law, they should pay. However, I have far more important things to worry, be serious, and lose sleep about than some big corporation trying to avoid paying taxes.

So

Jokes are fine and a better way to handle some of those situations than falling in the pit of despair. However, these things do affect you. Every tax dollar a corporation avoids paying has to come from somewhere else. In most cases, from the average citizen who cannot afford lobbyists or negotiate special deals.

 

[draugminaion]

Nope. The Irish government that made the deal with Apple broke its own rules and EU rules by giving Apple a special deal. The EU is pulling both Apple and the Irish government up on it.

And Ireland, convinced it knows it's own rules better than the EU does, insists it did nothing of the sort.

 

[r3m1]

I think a very important part in how Europeans look at this is the fact that Apple is supported by the Ireland itself. That takes away the presumption that Apple dodged the taxes, at least judging by the comments sections on most articles, questioning why Apple is punished, and not Ireland. Either way, I don't think it will hardly have any effect on sales in the EU. The average consumer could care less about this, if they want to buy an iPhone, they will. This will just blow over for the average Joe.

European public opinion is not in favor of Apple in this case and supports the ruling of the EU - we all pay taxes - Ireland receives billions of Euros from the EU but strikes 'sweetheart' deals with (rich) companies that should pay their tax, and prevent shady constructions. Tim Cook's response just added insult to injury ... Apple will be in for a rocky ride ...

 

[usarioclave]

For all readers, it would be worth it to read the US Treasury's opinion on the matter:

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/White-Paper-State-Aid.pdf

According to the US, the ruling isn't just a rule change, it is multiple rule changes. This is the EU changing the rules retroactively in what probably is a blatant cash grab.

Decision:

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/cases/253200/253200_1582634_87_2.pdf

Note that Ireland could just assess the back taxes at 1 euro if it so chose, extending the litigation even further into the future.
[doublepost=1472568851][/doublepost]

Nope. The Irish government that made the deal with Apple broke its own rules and EU rules by giving Apple a special deal. The EU is pulling both Apple and the Irish government up on it.

No, that's not correct. The deal was considered legal at the time, and this particular EU commission used different criteria to adjudicate the deals than has been used for the last 50 years or so.

 

[Plutonius]

Scoundrels lobby for favorable laws then hide behind "We followed the law" Piss on you Apple.

But they did follow the law. It might be better to save your anger for the government that wrote / interpreted the laws.

 

[doelcm82]

Pay your ****ing taxes. I pay mine.

You do?

I pay most taxes I owe, but I've been known to buy things when I travel that I plan to use at home because the sales tax rate is less than I'd pay at home. Technically, I'm supposed to pay the difference myself.

When I order things online and the company doesn't charge sales tax, I'm supposed to pay the use tax myself, but I don't.

I'm assuming you don't take advantage of loopholes like this (always buy local) or that you pay the use tax when a vendor doesn't charge the right amount of sales tax.

For me, if they ever figure out how to bill me for taxes I didn't pay, I think it would sting a little.

Sometimes I take advantage of state "sales tax holidays", too. If a court ever ruled that those holidays were unconstitutional, I'd take another hit for that. That seems to be what has happened to Apple. They took advantage of a legal tax situation, and now a court has ruled that the situation itself wasn't legal. It's partly Apple's fault (and mine) for jumping on a good deal instead of paying what we morally owe, right?

 

[dogslobber]

"Apple’s billions in back taxes could cover the entire annual Irish health budget, build about 100,000 homes for the poor or pay off a chunk of the nation’s debt. But the Irish government doesn't want it."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-ireland-doesn-t-want-133731091.html

It's easy to frame it this way as it is to frame it however you want the amount to be presented as. But it's more like taking a pension lump sum now as no further investment will occur in future. I think long term investment is more important to this country than a lump sum.
[doublepost=1472569348][/doublepost]

You do?

I pay most taxes I owe, but I've been known to buy things when I travel that I plan to use at home because the sales tax rate is less than I'd pay at home. Technically, I'm supposed to pay the difference myself.

Tax laws are so complex that everybody is breaking tax law somehow. It's just you've not been caught yet. Apple wasn't caught either...until today.

 

[a.gomez]

translation: we know we got caught but we will drag it out like we did with iBooks and any product defects. In the mean time - look we make lots of money.

 

[frankgrimes]

Nobody should be surprised by that, this is going to take years and years and by the time this thing is settled Ireland may not even be part of the EU anymore.

Wheter Apple should have paid like the other companies or not fact is, it was legal under Ireland law.

 

[cube]

How can Apple be confident that the ruling will be overturned?

 

[MRU]

Since the government want to give back the money to apple, at least they could do is open 1 official Apple store here, or give all adult tax payers on the island an iPhone 7
[doublepost=1472569663][/doublepost]

How can Apple be confident that the ruling will be overturned?

Because the Irish government don't even want the money .... Plus I believe (but could be wrong) the ruling actually has no 'real' jurisdiction or power of enforcement.

 

[SvP]

Let's put it this way, the tax demand is about 6% of their cash on hand. But they'll fight it tooth and nail for years, even if they'll have to spend those 6% on tax attorney fees.

To think Irelands' cash reserve is about 18 Billion this year...

 

[nebo1ss]

They will just drag this thing out for years. File the paperwork on the last day etc. There are loads of tactics to avoid this for a long time.

They have to pay the money into an Escrow account while they are fighting it.

 

[MRU]

To think Irelands' cash reserve is about 18 Billion this year...

The 13 billion is equal to what the country spends on its health service each year. Tbh given the state of the health service and the sheer waste, it's probably safer in Apple's coffers

 

[gnasher729]

I don't understand EU tax law. It seems Ireland's own laws says what Apple is doing is legal.

Well, yes, that's what Ireland's law says. And some EU commission says "Ireland's laws are illegal". Let's say it creates an interesting situation. My understanding is that the EU can tell its member states to some degree what kinds of laws they should have, and the member states are supposed to follow what the EU says, but until they do, their laws count.

So what Apple did was correct according to current Irish law. The question is whether the EU can force Ireland to change its laws retrospectively. And the funny thing is that the EU isn't actually asking Apple to pay money to the EU, they are asking Ireland to ask Apple to pay more money to Ireland.

 

[cube]

Because the Irish government don't even want the money .... Plus I believe (but could be wrong) the ruling actually has no 'real' jurisdiction or power of enforcement.

But the EU does. Ireland is EU jurisdiction.

This ruling is normal EU business.

 

[a.gomez]

You do?

I pay most taxes I owe, but I've been known to buy things when I travel that I plan to use at home because the sales tax rate is less than I'd pay at home. Technically, I'm supposed to pay the difference myself.

When I order things online and the company doesn't charge sales tax, I'm supposed to pay the use tax myself, but I don't.

I'm assuming you don't take advantage of loopholes like this (always buy local) or that you pay the use tax when a vendor doesn't charge the right amount of sales tax.

For me, if they ever figure out how to bill me for taxes I didn't pay, I think it would sting a little.

Sometimes I take advantage of state "sales tax holidays", too. If a court ever ruled that those holidays were unconstitutional, I'd take another hit for that. That seems to be what has happened to Apple. They took advantage of a legal tax situation, and now a court has ruled that the situation itself wasn't legal. It's partly Apple's fault (and mine) for jumping on a good deal instead of paying what we morally owe, right?

Not even near what is going on... "Apple Operations International" one of these so called subsidiaries hasn't filed a corporate tax return anywhere in the past five years! And this is not even from the EU, this was from a US Senate Panel investigation.

Go and not file your taxes for 5 years see what happens to you.

 

[MRU]

But the EU does. Ireland is EU jurisdiction.

This ruling is normal EU business.

The same EU that told Ireland it had to pay the bond holders and forced it's bank debt sky high. If and emphasis on 'if' Ireland manages to recover the money or part from Apple, it will simply be sidelined / squandered over to some more shady folks who are making money out of misery and no one will benefit other than the super elite anyway ....

Bottom line is for any normal person in Ireland this ruling will have no end benefit one way or the other sadly ...

 

[gnasher729]

How can Apple be confident that the ruling will be overturned?

Everyone can be confident. Doesn't mean you are right. You can confident even if you are very wrong. The most confident people in my experience are either those who absolutely know what they are doing, and the absolutely clueless on the other hand.

 

[MRU]

Well, yes, that's what Ireland's law says. And some EU commission says "Ireland's laws are illegal". Let's say it creates an interesting situation. My understanding is that the EU can tell its member states to some degree what kinds of laws they should have, and the member states are supposed to follow what the EU says, but until they do, their laws count.

So what Apple did was correct according to current Irish law. The question is whether the EU can force Ireland to change its laws retrospectively. And the funny thing is that the EU isn't actually asking Apple to pay money to the EU, they are asking Ireland to ask Apple to pay more money to Ireland.

Exactly. EU want to change something retrospectively which sounds just as dodgy as the prospect of any financial impropriety.

Besides as Fr. Ted would say

 

[gnasher729]

Tax laws are so complex that everybody is breaking tax law somehow. It's just you've not been caught yet. Apple wasn't caught either...until today.

No, Apple wasn't caught breaking any tax laws. The EU decided that the tax laws that Apple didn't break were not the right tax laws.