Apple Explains Why It Terminated Epic's Latest Developer Account

[bsolar]

Well then this leads in to there should be no developer agreement at all. If you don’t follow an agreement but are still protected. That’s major overreaching for the government. Also should the government be able to force any company to do business with another?

There is a larger issue at play here. Do we want to abolish all laws/EULAs/Agreements/Terms of Use? Just to have things open?

The question is whether the agreement imposes limitations which are justified under the DMA. Apple does impose quite a number of limitations, but the regulator could disagree that those limitations are allowed under the DMA, making the terms a violation of the regulation.

Epic does not have an automatic complete protection from Apple, but if you read the DMA you'll see Apple is much more limited compared to a "normal" company which enjoys complete freedom of contract due to their Gatekeeper status.

 

[Born2Run]

Burn in hell Epic games… this is awesome news and I just wish this would completely destroy them and make the company not exist any more!

 

[Will Co]

I would rather say it shows at what length Apple is willing to go in order to keep their profits, even at the cost of their own reputation.

That’s true, but then arguably true of many corporates.

 

[GizmoDVD]

A lot of sites were broken on iPhone. I was on the side that Apple should have allowed flash.

iPhone was literally a brand new category at its release, of course websites were broken

 

[Samplasion]

so the DMA has a clause that says Apple has to give a developer account to just anyone? I don't think so ...

I never said it did. I just said that citing US court rulings is slightly disingenuous because that's out of the scope of the discussion.
By the way, I'd rather Apple allow what you'd call 'sideloading' and do away with the concept of a 'privileged dev account' than this whole mess of a show.

 

[turbineseaplane]

At this point apple couldn’t give a damn at how they appear. They seem to be hurt on their pride.

More than that - they are holding on for their financial lock in lives

They know darned well a huge reason they keep harvesting cash is their various monopolistic positions and practices.

They will fight until the death.

 

[bsolar]

A lot of sites were broken on iPhone. I was on the side that Apple should have allowed flash.

Yes, they surely were. Flash was still very widespread at the time, but it was still already a very bad piece of software from the security point of view.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

You mean like a hospital treating patients in the emergency room?

No I mean like software company working with another software company. Stay on topic or get reported.

 

[Gloor]

AFAIK that was in US. EU has different rules and surely this won't fly.

Please read the article. Court decided that Apple can rightfully terminate Epic’s developer account because they violated the contract.
Why is it so difficult to see that Epic is the offending party here?

 

[Will Co]

The question is whether the agreement imposes limitations which are justified under the DMA. Apple does impose quite a number of limitations, but the regulator could disagree that those limitations are allowed under the DMA, making the terms a violation of the regulation.

Epic does not have an automatic complete protection from Apple, but if you read the DMA you'll see Apple is much more limited compared to a "normal" company which enjoys complete freedom of contract due to their Gatekeeper status.

Very true. But as others have said, the EU cannot compel Apple to do business with Epic. They’re choosing not to and I very much doubt Epic can do a damned thing about it.

 

[Samplasion]

app distribution on Apple's platform and Apple's devices users' devices on Apple's operating system of which users wholly own a copy of

There, fixed it for you

 

[jakey rolling]

Do you know how completely insane it is to say, "You have to do business with anyone and everyone that wants to do business with you."

It's only insane when you remove all context, like you're attempting to do here. The requirement to "do business" in the first place is Apple's own artificial requirement. Just like the case on other OS platforms (such as Windows), there does not need to be a business relationship for a developer to develop software for the OS. If Apple were to sell just the developer toolkit to developers without requiring any other artificially bundled services, that would probably be absolutely fine. But they don't - they require you to have an active developer account and use their storefront. In that case, yes, it is absolutely sane to force Apple to "do business with others", because they are leveraging their monopoly power to force a business relationship to exist in the first place.

 

[Oestreich Dieter]

It's a relationship, Apple's platform cannot strive without 3rd-party developers.

There's a fee to pay to be part of it, but it has to be profitable for both to keep the relationship going. Not saying the app store is dying, fortunately, but Apple's classic hubris is well on its way to drive more and more players away.

In the end, we're the ones with fewer options because of this.

Epic took in over $900 million from the app store. I am sure they made plenty of profit off that. They just want to keep more of their money rather than pay app store commissions.

"Fortnite players have spent almost $1.2 billion through Apple's App Store, generating revenue of about $354 million for Apple"

 

[turbineseaplane]

Apple's devices

Apple's devices?
The hardware itself is still owned by Apple after a user purchases it?

 

[jz0309]

More than that - they are holding on for their financial lock in lives

They know darned well a huge reason they keep harvesting cash is their various monopolistic positions and practices.

They will fight until the death.

no one, not even the EU, has said that Apple has a monopoly on anything. So claiming "various monopolistic positions and practices." is simply false.

 

[Will Co]

It matters when the only way to build an alternative app store is through an Apple developer account. And that the primary company wanting to do it was the one that was just banned from doing it.

Basically, this is just Apple parading how it will loophole every possible rule the EU throws at it.

I take your point, but it is possibly only valid because of Epic’s previous behaviour. I think it is a stretch to say that Apple would ban any company seeking to develop their own AppStore. They are specifically banning Epic because of past behaviour.

 

[jinnj]

Great to read. Epic if given the chance, would be the same things they accuse Apple of being. If it was a small company? I’d probably be more on their side but it’s not. It’s a greedy company that made Fortnite and thinks it’s now king of the hill.

I would like to add that because of Tim Sweeny's shortsightedness (and d*ck like attitude toward Gale Newell), he laughed at Valve for moving away from Games and Game Engines towards the Steam Store. Now he has fallen so far out of that market that he teams up with Tencent to try and bully himself into a platform. He wouldn't try this on PS, XBox or Switch platforms because being banned by them will actually kill Epic but Fortnite players on iOS was trending down and he decided to pull this stunt.

 

[jakey rolling]

Lol. You mean app distribution on Apple's platform and Apple's devices on Apple's operating system. No one is entitled to distribute anything on their platform.

Apple's devices cease to be Apple's devices once they are sold to customers. Those are customers' devices running Apple's operating system. And Epic doesn't want Apple to distribute anything on their behalf. That's kind of the point.

 

[BaldiMac]

Pretty much every commercial featuring the iPhone in existence today? The ability to run a wide variety of third-party apps and do everything from taking pictures to filing your taxes on a computer is pretty much the textbook definition of a general purpose computer.

1. An Xbox is also a general purpose computer by the textbook definition.
2. Calling something a general purpose computer doesn't have any legal relevancy.

 

[djphat2000]

Does this matter when alternative stores are going to be a real thing on iOS?

It kinda does for EPIC. as they will not even be able to hop on another store to sell their apps to Apple users.

 

[ThaGoochiestMane]

The only reasonable solution is for Apple to ban all developer accounts; that way Apple can release their own version of every app and see their Services revenue skyrocket!

Because at the end of the day, the only thing in the world that matters is Apple's stock price.

 

[rorschach]

"Would have accepted a special deal" is not the same thing as "asked for a special deal."

Sweeney did explicitly ask for a special deal, and when Apple refused, he openly said they were going to violate their contract.

"On June 30, 2020, Epic's CEO Tim Sweeney wrote my colleagues and me an email asking for a side letter' from Apple that would create a special deal for only Epic that would fundamentally change the way in which Epic offers apps on Apple's iOS platform," said Apple App Store chief Phil Schiller.

More specifically, Apple claims that Epic Games wanted permission to implement direct payment systems to bypass App Store fees. When Apple refused, Sweeney reportedly wrote back to Schiller and said that Fortnite "will no longer adhere to Apple's payment processing restrictions."

Epic Games wanted a special deal for 'Fortnite' on the App Store | AppleInsider

Apple on Friday shot back at Epic Games in a legal filing, likening the Fortnite creator to a "shoplifter" and disputing the gaming company's claims that it did not want a "special deal" on the App Store.

appleinsider.com

 

[gatorvet96]

I have a question. If someone is playing Fortnite on their XBOX/Playstation/Switch and makes in-app purchases, does Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo take a cut?

And can someone on the above consoles load that game from an alternate store?

 

[123]

Maybe don't badmouth the place where you want to sell your items?

They don't want to sell their items there. They want to sell them in their own store, which Apple doesn't allow. But the EU will teach Apple a lesson and I couldn't be happier about it when that day arrives and fines will be in the double digit billions.

 

[GeoStructural]

Maybe don't badmouth the place where you want to sell your items? If I was selling something at Target I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to bad mouth them and have a shocked pikachu face when they remove my products from their stores.

How is that badmouthing? Any company, specially powerful ones like this can be subject to criticism. Sweeney expressed very valid critical points, it wasn't like he was "trashing" Apple, he spoke out about shoddy business practices that actively affect his company.