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Bringing an iPhone in for service with bugs that tons of other people are having is a waste of time as its Apple's software engineerings problem to fix not a tech at an apple store. My reference was to standards of quality based on premium pricing and marketing.

That brings up another point though, an Apple car sounds less and less appealing all the time now. Imagine the software bug potential in a car running iOS 🤣
In your example, buying a Maserti does not guarantee a problem free car out of the dealership in spite of the fact it's a premium product.

Buying a just released iphone doesn't mean you (as the individual consumers) won't find something that will make you unhappy.

I can separate out the software bugs from the quality of the hardware in my mind.

As far as the Apple Car, Tesla's do crash for unknown reasons, so yeah.
 
Microsoft stopped supporting Windows XP. No more security updates are leaving me vulnerable. They should be forced to support forever.

1 - New OSs will always be slower on older hardware. If you can't handle that, do not update to newest OS (yes, you'll miss out on features).
2 - Super unrealistic to expect support of an ancient OS. Every company, not just Apple, cuts the cord at some point.

In the words of the great coach Beard, "Grow up and get over it."

View attachment 1737102
One thing is Windows being slow in older computers because of new OS advancements. Another thing is iOS purposively slowing down suitable iPhones/iPads so the user buy a new one.
 
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I think that you're right, but that's only for a small portion of the user base.

My observation is that most people just let upgrades happen automatically. Then, they suffer with the side-effects of an operating system trying to do more with a fixed level of hardware capability. Note: Software is not magic, even if it seems to be.

A subset of the above will just use this as an excuse to buy that new phone that they just know they need to have. I don't know if Apple deliberately plays to this, but it certainly appears that they at least look the other way.

Then there's people who follow sites like MacRumors. They get worked up when things don't work the way they should, or the way they want them to work. (Notice the subtle difference there.) The software is not magic comment still applies.

However, having the ability to roll back your operating system version to where you previously were happy seems most reasonable. I personally don't understand why that's not permitted, especially if it's a backup on your own storage. You could try the new operating system, determine if the performance hit is worth it on your hardware, and make your choice. I guess that's so they reduce the number of operating systems they need to support. Except for the people who opted out of upgrades, of course.

Based on some recent experiences and observations with regard to Mac operating system upgrades, it does seem that Apple is offering upgrades that actually break things, and then either deny that it's broken, blame you the customer, or tell you to upgrade to Big Sur and/or buy a new computer. I say, heck'em.

Think about this logically.

Why does Apple offer new operating system versions each year? (This was not always the case, btw) Primarily because new operating system are needed to take advantage of whatever new hardware they want to sell you this year.

So, why do they also make it so the new operating system can be loaded into device a couple years old? I think it's primarily to keep people engaged. (I'm not counting security or bug fixes.) It's a marketing tool for them. They don't make any money directly from upgrades. In fact, it must cost them a lot because of the distribution, the needed support, and the regression testing they sorta do. (Mac operating systems used to be distributed on CDs, so they didn't come for free. But, for the price they charged, I have to believe that they made profit beyond the cost of buying CDs or DVDs, packaging, shipping, and profit for a dealer. After all. what do DVDs sell for?)

Think about how this works for iOS devices. When you get a new device, there's a new operating system in it. It's the latest version, at least without taking into account very recent upgrades that were offered after the product left the factory. Then, most people automatically get upgrades unless they go out of their way to opt out. (They still get nagged - the parallels with privacy concerns are too funny to discuss.) If an upgrade doesn't work well for a customer, they have just a week or two to go back. And, they can only go back one version. Your device is entirely under Apple's control until the day when they say, "We're done! You're on your own! Don't look to us for help."

That all seems crazy.

Having software upgrades that are specifically aimed to take advantage of new hardware also work, sorta, on older devices is nutty. Maybe on last year's hardware, but not much beyond that.

I'd be much happier if they provided bug fixes and security upgrades for older operating systems, even if it there was a modest cost associated. Maybe if they got some revenue form it, Apple would devote more resources to fixing those than they do. AppleCare is currently between about $4 and $12 per month for an iPhone, from what I gather. A Mac is about $10 per month. That's for hardware, too. Why not a flat fee of a buck a month for operating system upgrades after the first year? Or, maybe, 99 cents, like iCloud storage?
THIS x100!!!! Cant really add much to what you wrote because it's exactly what Apple does year after year with iOS. The issue now is that there are tons of bugs with NEW software that shipped with the NEW hardware. In this case ios 14 with iPhone 12. In the past before iOS 13 the new iPhones would run amazingly good on the latest release. I remember getting my 6S and XR and they were just lighting fast and fluid compared to the older devices they replaced.

If Apple is going to essentially nag/force people to upgrade with no way back then they need to make DAMN SURE the software is even more flawless. Now all we can do is turn off the nagging the best we can in settings and watch for others to show all the issues that pop up before we choose to update or not. This IMO is a really crummy thing to have to do the last couple years. But like everything else there are "new normals" to adapt to.

Also, they need to stop forcing us to wait weeks or months for a software update to update single apps. If theres something busted in the music app, patch it now. Not when the latest emojis featuring a bride with a mustache is released.
 
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Well, and you forgot to mention, that after a while you are forced to upgrade, else Apps won't update anymore, because Apple forces the devs to publish their Apps to a >x.x iOS version.
So far as I know Apple don't "force" developers to be backward compatible - thats on the dev's shoulders. The majority apps available currently still work on iOS 12 at least (many popular apps as far back as iOS 9).

Sure there is going to be newer titles that take advantage of the OS features and hardware of newer devices. It's been the same since the dawn of computers - new software requires new hardware.

If a new version of an app runs badly on an old device it'll probably be pulled for that OS version - What's the point anyhow if the experience is chuggy.
 
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kinda think you are missing the overall point....

Considering Apple is known as a premium brand/product line, if people experience issues there’s nothing wrong with holding them accountable. When people stop doing that then in the long run everyone will suffer.

Pick your favorite car brand for example. Let’s say you buy a new Maserati and the steering wheel shakes. Sure that doesn’t really impact the performance of getting you from A to B, but you spent a lot of money on a product you expect drive a lot more smoothly.
The Maserati example is flawed.

That's because the shaking steering wheel is either a bug or defect. Those should be fixed, period. (Not the least because it's a safety issue.)

But, if Maserati comes out with a new model with a similar name two years after you bought yours, and it handles better, accelerates better, gets better fuel mileage, and looks snazzier, Maserati shouldn't be under any obligation to update your car. Especially since a change here or there to get all those features might cause other performance or safety aspects to be compromised.

So, go try that one at your local Maserati dealership. They'd probably be very happy to accept the older car in trade on a new one, with some cash mixed into the deal.
 
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Every piece of consumer electronics has planned obsolescence. It’s not like Nintendo are happy making games for the GBA and the GameCube still, is it?

Apple may well be guilty of some dubious practices but so is every other manufacturer.
Every piece of technology has technological obsolescence, where the technology simply moves on and the old hardware can no longer run new/current code. Planned...yes, as we plane to say in business so therefore we plan to continue to create new products...instead of we will continue to make the same product..as is for as long as we are in business.
 
So much anger and arrogance. A) We did not buy Audible solely for the iPhone. Nexus 6 working fine, but iPhone 6 preferred. B) The older version of Audible is available (prior to 6S) in the App Store. Apple will allow it to be installed from the app store to an iPhone 6 if you have either the current Audible app, of had the older version (lets say you had an iPhone 5 and installed it the prior to buying a Nexus). So it is there. Perhaps Amazon does not want it to be installed and Apple does, so the fault lies with Amazon. But then why does Amazon support the Nexus 6 Audible App via the Play store? What benefit does Amazon gain by limiting availability of Audible on older iDevices ?? Alternatively what does Apple gain by making my wife think she needs to buy a new phone because her current phone (which works great) is "too old". Anyway, always interesting to post something anti-Tim Apple on MR.
The Audible App possibly relies on some underlying iOS features only available on newer devices or it was laggy on older devices for whatever reason.

There is still plenty of high end apps and games being developed for +iOS9 so I'd imagine the fault lies with the developer as Apple still have the App on the store.

Why not just ask Audible for a straight answer - they developed it. Simple.
 
So far as I know Apple don't "force" developers to be backward compatible - thats on the dev's shoulders. The majority apps available currently still work on iOS 12 at least (many popular apps as far back as iOS 9).

Sure there is going to be newer titles that take advantage of the OS features and hardware of newer devices. It's been the same since the dawn of computers - new software requires new hardware.

If a new version of an app runs badly on an old device it'll probably be pulled for that OS version - What's the point anyhow if the experience is chuggy.
Exactly
 
Truly heartbreaking that we might have to wait for the next Animoji while Apple answers to charges of ripping off consumers.
Is this back to the meme of either develop/fix software or produce animojis?
If only corporations were allowed to do whatever they like with complete impunty, what a better place the world would be. Sigh.
Who is saying the corporations should operate outside of the law? There are many facets of a company's interactions with customers that are market driven. Keep them that way and don't over-regulate.
 
In your example, buying a Maserti does not guarantee a problem free car out of the dealership in spite of the fact it's a premium product.

Buying a just released iphone doesn't mean you (as the individual consumers) won't find something that will make you unhappy.

I can separate out the software bugs from the quality of the hardware in my mind.

As far as the Apple Car, Tesla's do crash for unknown reasons, so yeah.
Actually buying a Maserati....or ether exotic Italian car, would be in the shop often and they were quirky, temperamental cars. Now Lambo and Ferrari could be a little different and that they are owned by the German car companies.
 
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Truly heartbreaking that we might have to wait for the next Animoji while Apple answers to charges of ripping off consumers.

If only corporations were allowed to do whatever they like with complete impunty, what a better place the world would be. Sigh.

Yeah beacuse...core operating system engineers are totally handling Animoji.

Heartbreaking...sigh.
 
I think that you're right, but that's only for a small portion of the user base.

My observation is that most people just let upgrades happen automatically. Then, they suffer with the side-effects of an operating system trying to do more with a fixed level of hardware capability. Note: Software is not magic, even if it seems to be.

A subset of the above will just use this as an excuse to buy that new phone that they just know they need to have. I don't know if Apple deliberately plays to this, but it certainly appears that they at least look the other way.

Then there's people who follow sites like MacRumors. They get worked up when things don't work the way they should, or the way they want them to work. (Notice the subtle difference there.) The software is not magic comment still applies.

However, having the ability to roll back your operating system version to where you previously were happy seems most reasonable. I personally don't understand why that's not permitted, especially if it's a backup on your own storage. You could try the new operating system, determine if the performance hit is worth it on your hardware, and make your choice. I guess that's so they reduce the number of operating systems they need to support. Except for the people who opted out of upgrades, of course.

Based on some recent experiences and observations with regard to Mac operating system upgrades, it does seem that Apple is offering upgrades that actually break things, and then either deny that it's broken, blame you the customer, or tell you to upgrade to Big Sur and/or buy a new computer. I say, heck'em.

Think about this logically.

Why does Apple offer new operating system versions each year? (This was not always the case, btw) Primarily because new operating system are needed to take advantage of whatever new hardware they want to sell you this year.

So, why do they also make it so the new operating system can be loaded into device a couple years old? I think it's primarily to keep people engaged. (I'm not counting security or bug fixes.) It's a marketing tool for them. They don't make any money directly from upgrades. In fact, it must cost them a lot because of the distribution, the needed support, and the regression testing they sorta do. (Mac operating systems used to be distributed on CDs, so they didn't come for free. But, for the price they charged, I have to believe that they made profit beyond the cost of buying CDs or DVDs, packaging, shipping, and profit for a dealer. After all. what do DVDs sell for?)

Think about how this works for iOS devices. When you get a new device, there's a new operating system in it. It's the latest version, at least without taking into account very recent upgrades that were offered after the product left the factory. Then, most people automatically get upgrades unless they go out of their way to opt out. (They still get nagged - the parallels with privacy concerns are too funny to discuss.) If an upgrade doesn't work well for a customer, they have just a week or two to go back. And, they can only go back one version. Your device is entirely under Apple's control until the day when they say, "We're done! You're on your own! Don't look to us for help."

That all seems crazy.

Having software upgrades that are specifically aimed to take advantage of new hardware also work, sorta, on older devices is nutty. Maybe on last year's hardware, but not much beyond that.

I'd be much happier if they provided bug fixes and security upgrades for older operating systems, even if it there was a modest cost associated. Maybe if they got some revenue form it, Apple would devote more resources to fixing those than they do. AppleCare is currently between about $4 and $12 per month for an iPhone, from what I gather. A Mac is about $10 per month. That's for hardware, too. Why not a flat fee of a buck a month for operating system upgrades after the first year? Or, maybe, 99 cents, like iCloud storage?
Try to "Connect the dots - Steve Jobs" even more, and look at this from the business point of view, it's a huge dependency hell (aka. eco system) build to solely drive the profits up and make customers dependant, it's hard to recognise that, and not everybody has this ability.

Apps tied to iOS, iOS updates to hardware, Apps tied to the AppStore and iOS versions.
To publish to AppStore Apple enforces a higher iOS/Xcode versions, which makes older Apps incompatible or crashy.
At the same time they disallow App Upgrades(not updates!), this drives devs to subscription business model, Apple loves subscriptions $$$.
At the same time they disallow side loading, and keep interlocking more business types, Apple Services, iOS Versions etc.
At the same time this all drives people to buy a newer iPhone, and if they notice that a iPhone is being used for too long, they remove the support or gently lower performance, but in a way customers don't blame the iPhone, but they got caught recently. SURE, just a bug.. lol

If I had time, I would build an Apple dependancy hell UML diagram of this, it would become massive and clearly visible, how all is cleverly tied together, just to drive profits up and to fool people.
 
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Right again! Apple could choose to divert engineers away from new features and more towards optimization. Apple literally would sell millions of iPhone 13 models if ALL THEY DID was stick in a new camera and offer them in new colors, dont even touch the damn software aside from bug fixes. Thats why most people upgrade anyway ,the cameras. No average person said OMG now theres OLED!!!!! Us geeks love that stuff but talking to numerous people the first thing the mention is the camera. They barely know anything else was added unless something was moved around, etc
Somebody who has more insight into this than I explained to me that Apple engineers don't want to do optimization. They want to do cool new stuff, however that's defined. So, that's what they do. That probably is true for their engineering managers, too. Plus, the way the company's culture is, keeping old products working their best is not a step forward and doesn't deliver profit or the expectation of profit, which is what drives stock prices. At least that's the perception.

Given the amount of time these folks devote to their jobs, it's not surprising that they might be a bit insulated from average customers.
 
THIS x100!!!! Cant really add much to what you wrote because it's exactly what Apple does year after year with iOS. The issue now is that there are tons of bugs with NEW software that shipped with the NEW hardware. In this case ios 14 with iPhone 12. In the past before iOS 13 the new iPhones would run amazingly good on the latest release. I remember getting my 6S and XR and they were just lighting fast and fluid compared to the older devices they replaced.

If Apple is going to essentially nag/force people to upgrade with no way back then they need to make DAMN SURE the software is even more flawless. Now all we can do is turn off the nagging the best we can in settings and watch for others to show all the issues that pop up before we choose to update or not. This IMO is a really crummy thing to have to do the last couple years. But like everything else there are "new normals" to adapt to.

Also, they need to stop forcing us to wait weeks or months for a software update to update single apps. If theres something busted in the music app, patch it now. Not when the latest emojis featuring a bride with a mustache is released.
But, on the bright side, older devices still work well if you don't try to make them work better by upgrading.

I have an iPad Pro from two years ago that still uses iPadOS 13. Guess what? It still works as well as it did when new, and I am as happy with it now as I was back then. Why break it? What has changed in my life over the past two years that requires any new features in iPadOS 14? A crying need for some new emoji?

It's the old "grass is greener" thing combined with just a little self control.

This does NOT excuse Apple from promising one thing and delivering another, or being deceptive about any of it.
 
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So far as I know Apple don't "force" developers to be backward compatible - thats on the dev's shoulders. The majority apps available currently still work on iOS 12 at least (many popular apps as far back as iOS 9).

Sure there is going to be newer titles that take advantage of the OS features and hardware of newer devices. It's been the same since the dawn of computers - new software requires new hardware.

If a new version of an app runs badly on an old device it'll probably be pulled for that OS version - What's the point anyhow if the experience is chuggy.
They limit(enforce) it by removing older iOS deployment targets from newer Xcode versions, and by demanding newer Xcode versions to publish an App and make it compatible with newer hardware, which naturally leads to the exclusion of older iOS versions and hardware.

"Starting April 2021, all iOS and iPadOS apps submitted to the App Store must be built with Xcode 12 and the iOS 14 SDK."

 
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Actually buying a Maserati....or ether exotic Italian car, would be in the shop often and they were quirky, temperamental cars. Now Lambo and Ferrari could be a little different and that they are owned by the German car companies.
Isn't Ferrari still an Italian company incorporated on The Netherlands? It's publicly held, but the largest single stockholder is the Agnelli family, last I knew. All based in Italy.
 
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Try to "Connect the dots - Steve Jobs" even more, and look at this from the business point of view, it's a huge dependency hell (aka. eco system) build to solely drive the profits up and make customers dependant, it's hard to recognise that, and not everybody has this ability.

Apps tied to iOS, iOS updates to hardware, Apps tied to the AppStore and iOS versions.
To publish to AppStore Apple enforces a higher iOS/Xcode versions, which makes older Apps incompatible or crashy.
At the same time they disallow App Upgrades(not updates!), this drives devs to subscription business model, Apple loves subscriptions $$$.
At the same time they disallow side loading, and keep interlocking more business types, Apple Services, iOS Versions etc.
At the same time this all drives people to buy a newer iPhone, and if they notice that a iPhone is being used for too long, they remove the support or gently lower performance, but in a way customers don't blame the iPhone, but they got caught recently. SURE, just a bug.. lol

If I had time, I would build an Apple dependancy hell UML diagram of this, it would become massive and clearly visible, how all is cleverly tied together, just to drive profits up and to fool people.
Basically Apple forces you to get a new device every 5 or 6 years and android forces you to get a new device every 2 or 3 years. Why Apple pushes updates is so they don't end up like Microsoft Windows and Intel, which is having to support code going back 20+ years.

But other than they above the above is circumstantial.
 
They limit(enforce) it by removing older iOS deployment targets from newer Xcode versions, and by demanding newer Xcode versions to publish an App and make it compatible with newer hardware, which naturally leads to the exclusion of older iOS versions and hardware.
**How is EA games still publishing for iOS9 ? (Latest version of RR3 was 21 hours ago)

Never mind - Fired Xcode up and deployment targets go back to iOS8+.

Should we really care about developing new software for 10 year old mobile devices at this point??
 
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It’s a testament to the success of their marketing when you have hoards of “satisfied customers” running to their defence even when they’re found to be in the wrong. Something something reality distortion
The expression "you can fool some of the people...." comes to mind. But if one believes Apple has fooled the majority of their customers, maybe it's not the majority of their customers that are really fooled.
 
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Basically Apple forces you to get a new device every 5 or 6 years and android forces you to get a new device every 2 or 3 years. Why Apple pushes updates is so they don't end up like Microsoft Windows and Intel, which is having to support code going back 20+ years.

But other than they above the above is circumstantial.
Not really, with build-in side loading you can offer Apps to any Android version that ever existed.
It's called, backporting features.
 
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