Apple Faces Another iPhone Lawsuit Over 'Programmed Obsolescence'

[Wildkraut]

I stand corrected, you are correct sir....Lamborghini is owned by Audi, Bentley is owned by Volkswagen and Rolls Royce is owned by BMW.

Audi is owned by Volkswagen 😀
Lamborghini is owned by Volkswagen 😀
Bentley is owned by Volkswagen 😀

 

[Suckfest 9001]

They are NOT forcing you/users to update. You can stay on any version that you are using. Updating OS versions or software updates are on the users to do or skip.

Don’t iOS update downloads happen automatically in older versions of iOS? Surely you can’t expect the average iPhone owner to understand the whole TV beta profile trick???

 

[subi257]

No? And what if your favourite App stops working because of something, and the developer is unable to update/fix it.
Unable to update/fix it, because Apple does not allow the dev to submit Apps build with an older Xcode version.
And newer Xcode versions does not support older iOS versions.

This drives a customer to buy a newer iPhone, because the newer App version works there, and remember that the older iPhone was still working fine for him.

Then the developer needs to rewrite some code, I have plenty of apps that the developer just decided to no longer update anything.....that's the interesting thing with software in general. A developer can just decide to abandon it and it works till it stops because of OS issues.

 

[Wildkraut]

They are NOT forcing you/users to update. You can stay on any version that you are using. Updating OS versions or software updates are on the users to do or skip.

I think you're unable to recognise the dependencies, based on lack of knowledge maybe, dunno.
Or if you are, then simply tell it does not care you, that would be at least honest.

 

[subi257]

Audi is owned by Volkswagen 😀
Lamborghini is owned by Volkswagen 😀
Bentley is owned by Volkswagen 😀

They own Porsche too. Sounds like a monopoly to me! They are buying up every car manufacturer

 

[itsmeaustend]

Another idiotic move by another uninformed politician.

 

[Wildkraut]

Then the developer needs to rewrite some code, I have plenty of apps that the developer just decided to no longer update anything.....that's the interesting thing with software in general. A developer can just decide to abandon it and it works till it stops because of OS issues.

There are many Apps which depends on third party frameworks, which needs to be updated.
E.g. if i build an App with OneDrive/Twitter, put any SaaS framework here, then MS decide to block the access from this older framework version, e.g. because of a security flaw. On iPhone 5/5s/6 this App would stop working from April 2021 upward.

 

[Wildkraut]

They own Porsche too. Sounds like a monopoly to me! They are buying up every car manufacturer

Yeah that clearly sucks... ( saying that as a German who works in the car industry )

 

[subi257]

I think you're unable to recognise the dependencies, based on lack of knowledge maybe, dunno.
Or if you are, then simply tell it does not care you, that would be at least honest.

I recognize the dependancies jut fine. My work iPhone is running iOS12....because we are not allowed to update them...They are company property and they work for company needs just fine. I also understand that there are times when a developer must throw out the old code and start over because there has been too many years of patching and now the whole thing is just a bastardized pile of code. As a developer, you can keep making changes for only so long. If you still have carryover code from 32 bit and it is in the way of you making the app run optimally in 64 bit. The OS Apple, Microsoft, etc is not obligated to keep updating their patches so that you are a developer can continue to run obsolete code.....I can assure you that I am not trying to be an ass...Technology especially these days moves fast and as a suppler to it (hardware or software) you need to keep up.

 

[Amazing Iceman]

The planned obsolesce stuff always gives me pause, given how many years Apple supplies updates for hardware. Feels like there would be more merit if this was more in alignment with what has happened on the Android side of the fence, where maybe you get 2 years of updates. Granted, that's improving now with the more recent commitments from Samsung (et al), but historically you'd get a couple years from Android manufacturers, and 2-3 times that from Apple.

That said, 100% on-board with a thorough investigation, and maybe some commitment from Apple to better test changes on older hardware if they're going to be included in said further updates. Even on the latest hardware, there have been some surprising bugs crop up from software version to software version.

My overall experience is positive, but everyone uses their devices differently, use different software load outs that may exasperate other problems more than others. Healthy to keep Apple in check.

Standard product life cycle is 5 years.
It becomes a nightmare to try to be backwards compatible for so long.
Apple has been providing updates and upgrades for many years, but there’s a limit. For example you can’t have ML on an iPhone 4, so it doesn’t support an iOS release that depends on it.

 

[I7guy]

No, you can't sideload on iOS, the only official way is though the AppStore, but that route got closed on purpose.
Yeah they claim that they have a recent iOS version, because all the older iPhones got hit by programmed obsolesce, and they just fell out of Apples iOS statistics. There still are plenty of iPhone 5/5s/6 out there, they are still working, and as a developer there is no way to offer a newer App versions to these iPhone owners. For sure releasing a heavy graphics game makes no sense, but there are many type of Apps & Games that would still work great on these devices.

What about iphone 2 and 3G? There is a practical limit to hardware life and software life. Iphone 5 is a 32 bit chip. iphone 5s is still supported with ios 12, which is still receiving updates. And my 7 year old 5s being on ios 12 can run all current apps that are within the capacity of the hardware.

But the utility of my now 11 year old iphone 4 is coming to a close.

 

[BKDad]

They own Porsche too. Sounds like a monopoly to me! They are buying up every car manufacturer

They own Porsche too. Sounds like a monopoly to me! They are buying up every car manufacturer

Check out Stellantis, another corporation based in The Netherlands.

 

[Wildkraut]

I recognize the dependancies jut fine. My work iPhone is running iOS12....because we are not allowed to update them...They are company property and they work for company needs just fine. I also understand that there are times when a developer must throw out the old code and start over because there has been too many years of patching and now the whole thing is just a bastardized pile of code. As a developer, you can keep making changes for only so long. If you still have carryover code from 32 bit and it is in the way of you making the app run optimally in 64 bit. The OS Apple, Microsoft, etc is not obligated to keep updating their patches so that you are a developer can continue to run obsolete code.....I can assure you that I am not trying to be an ass...Technology especially these days moves fast and as a suppler to it (hardware or software) you need to keep up.

Sure technology moves fast, and thats great.
But it's not a reason to cut off perfectly working devices, which could find usage in other scenarios, or countries with worse economy.

It must be up to the developer to decide if it worth updating his App, as it's up to Apple to decide if it worth updating iOS up to a point, but Apple is enforcing programmed obsolesce that way.

 

[subi257]

Yeah that clearly sucks... ( saying that as a German who works in the car industry )

I am surprised to hear that...or should I not be..I am a car guy, have always been. of al types, makes and models and some of the car industry makes me sad. I love Porsche and the older BMW 2002Ti. So then you should see how the tech moves in the car world. Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, etc...they all require "special" dealer tools to fix certain things....these tools are not available for sale to anybody other than factory dealers. There is certain functionality needed in scan tools to diagnose or repair those cars...it's only available to dealers. Almost only dealers can fix the self braking things because you need a $40k test set up and it requires a 30' x 30' open space...and if you don't align the lasers perfectly and the car does not self stop to avoid and accident, you better have mad crazy insurance, because you will be sued.

 

[deevey]

There still are plenty of iPhone 5/5s/6 out there, they are still working, and as a developer there is no way to offer a newer App versions to these iPhone owners.

So how are EA writing the likes of the Real Racing 3 update that I got a couple of hours ago thats compatible with iOS9+ on an iPhone 5s ?

 

[subi257]

Sure technology moves fast, and thats great.
But it's not a reason to cut off perfectly working devices, which could find usage in other scenarios, or countries with worse economy.

It must be up to the developer to decide if it worth updating his App, as it's up to Apple to decide if it worth updating iOS up to a point, but Apple is enforcing programmed obsolesce that way.

I think a lot of it is consumer driven....Apple competes heavily for marketshare against Samsung, and Google here in US. I don't know about in Europe, but in Asia they are competing against Huawei, Xiaomi, etc. As each one flashes out crazy new features consumers all run around...I need that, I want that....but never use more than 10% of the features, so the companies are scrambling to get new features out ...fast! Everybody wants super fast, super light, battery lasts for days running a 120hz refresh screen, finger print scanner, etc...you get my point.

 

[Wildkraut]

What about iphone 2 and 3G? There is a practical limit to hardware life and software life. Iphone 5 is a 32 bit chip. iphone 5s is still supported with ios 12, which is still receiving updates. And my 7 year old 5s being on ios 12 can run all current apps that are within the capacity of the hardware.

But the utility of my now 11 year old iphone 4 is coming to a close.

And why is 32Bit so bad? It's still perfectly fine for *A LOT* of things.

The 32/64bit cut was just another Apple pretext to drive customers to buy a newer iDevice.
The same they will do with Intel/ARM soon, and I will wonder if people will simply accept the punch.

Again iPhone <=6 was just set to die soon, because there will be no way for a developer to keep updating Apps for it. https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=itpt8dkc

Starting April 2021, all iOS and iPadOS apps submitted to the App Store must be built with Xcode 12 and the iOS 14 SDK.

iOS badly needs sideloading and iOS rollback support, it's the only way to stop that digital mafia.

 

[subi257]

Sure technology moves fast, and thats great.
But it's not a reason to cut off perfectly working devices, which could find usage in other scenarios, or countries with worse economy.

It must be up to the developer to decide if it worth updating his App, as it's up to Apple to decide if it worth updating iOS up to a point, but Apple is enforcing programmed obsolesce that way.

I agree, maybe sometimes keep that older "perfectly working" device and just use it for the, the game that are not handling updates well and then just use a new one for all of the rest. Or t least make sure the old devices and correctly e-recycled. there is a LOT of money on precious metals in them that recyclers salvage.

 

[darngooddesign]

No? And what if your favourite App stops working because of something, and the developer is unable to update/fix it.
Unable to update/fix it, because Apple does not allow the dev to submit Apps build with an older Xcode version.
And newer Xcode versions does not support older iOS versions.

This drives a customer to buy a newer iPhone, because the newer App version works there, and remember that the older iPhone was still working fine for him.

The App Store already lets you download the latest version that works with your OS. Just because you have FOMO a new update does not mean Apple is forcing people to upgrade phones which work well for them.

I do get what you mean, on my iphone4S with iOS5.1 neither the iOS Weather or iOS YouTube apps work, but I have a different weather app for the former and safari for the latter. That’s ok, i use it to play podcasts for my birds. My iPhone 5 with ios9 works perfectly well despite apple’s planned obsolescence.

 

[windywalks]

This is not an unprecedented investigation and I doubt that the Portuguese are going to be more inquisitive than anyone else before them. After all this time it just seems like a desperate money grab from an institution that profits almost exclusively from levying fines. I can't imagine even caring about a 7 year old phone at this moment. it just makes it even more laughable. I wonder what country is going to be late to the party on this one.

 

[iHorseHead]

I still use iPhone 5s and am surprised it receives updates and actually, it's pretty ok.
Why other companies don't get sued for selling devices with outdated OS? I can still see devices being sold with Android 9 and it's pretty much out of date and you can't get Android 10 or later. Nobody barks at them.

 

[darngooddesign]

And why is 32Bit so bad? It's still perfectly fine for *A LOT* of things.

The 32/64bit cut was just another Apple pretext to drive customers to buy a newer iDevice.
The same they will do with Intel/ARM soon, and I will wonder if people will simply accept the punch.

Again iPhone <=6 was just set to die soon, because there will be no way for a developer to keep updating Apps for it. https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=itpt8dkc

Starting April 2021, all iOS and iPadOS apps submitted to the App Store must be built with Xcode 12 and the iOS 14 SDK.

iOS badly needs sideloading and iOS rollback support, it's the only way to stop that digital mafia.

The same thing happened with 68K/PPC, CISC/RISC, Motorola/Intel, and OS9/OS X. Change happens in technology, if you don’t like it just keep using the old tech.

 

[Wildkraut]

Did your favorite app stop working?

The App Store already lets you download the latest version that works with your OS. Just because you have FOMO a new update does not mean Apple is forcing people to upgrade phones which work well for them.

You mean the latest version that "worked" with your OS, not that "works" with your OS.
I still have a iP4s in the drawer, Apps that permanently broke got pulled by their devs, simply because they not allowed to support them anymore. I can't even download them anymore, they show up with a "empty default template" icon in purchase history.

 

[Wildkraut]

The same thing happened with 68K/PPC, CISC/RISC, Motorola/Intel, and OS9/OS X. Change happens in technology, if you don’t like it just keep using the old tech.

Yeah sure, but there is nothing holding you back from booting your IRIX/OS9/OSX hardware up, and offering a newly written vintage Application for it, on your own website. In case of iOS/iPhone there is Apple acting as Gatekeeper with their golden handcuff aka. AppStore.

Still an active community, back porting stuff and playing around.

IRIX Network Forums

Something you will never be able to do with iOS and upcoming macOS versions(once they lock it down like iOS).

 

[Arsenikdote]

Wasn't it established that the performance had been throttled on phones that were only a year old?

There seems to be two things everyone is getting up in arms about. The specific issue with Apple slowing iPhone 6's when the batteries started to get older and not last as long. The SUPPOSED reason Apple gave was that they were trying to make sure the battery lasted as long by slowing down the phone. This wasn't "only a year old" and was tied directly to battery health. Then it lowered performance.

The second issue people are talking about is Apple intentionally slowing down EVERYTHING to force you to upgrade to a new device. This "planned" thing is where they do things to make stuff feel old and slow and then you go out and buy a replacement, not because you would "need" to but because Apple has done something to make it appear that way.

None of that addresses this specific issue. Which is that Apple throttled the performance of some peoples devices without properly informing them.

Apple did a really poor job in communicating what they did. That is just fact. If that is why people are suing and that is what people want to get paid on, so be it. I, along with a lot of others, feel like the lawyers win instead of the users. But to each their own. It was a mistake and if the court rules in favor of it, there ya go. Feel like this is fairly straight forward.

Everything I've heard about their waterproofing is you can trust it once not long after purchase and after that it diminishes quickly.

And there are a number of cameras that are not just water resistant but specifically designed to work under water that use things other than glue to keep water out. I don't personally own them, but from what I can tell, it seems they just work with gaskets, like the Olympus TG series.

I don't have any idea if waterproofing is A reason why Apple doesn't allow for replaceable batteries. No knowledge on the subject. However, just because a completely different product, such as an Olympus digital camera CAN be waterproofed, says nothing about a smartphone from Apple. Truly not even something that is a reasonable comparison. Again, no idea if it is a reasonable argument to begin with, but comparing it to a different product category entirely to say it can be done is not very corollary.

Honestly, the intentions were dishonest. Battery capacity was insufficient for power draw plus it worsens over a short time with battery wear so they tried to silently cover up it but it blew up in their face when customers found out. If Apple had good intentions they would've been upfront with explaining that customers can enable software throttling with side effect of impacting performance or get their defective battery replaced.

I mean whether it WAS or WASN'T honest is pure speculation. I think depending on your perspective each way has merit and a case to be argued. However, I can certainly agree that they did a horrible job on communicating the "feature".

This programmed obsolescence should stop! not even apple fanboys in Macrumors can defend apple anymore, even you guys know this has happened to you, you miss your idevices working well they have all turned into paperweights beautiful paperweights sitting in a drawer waiting for the lithium to explode...

I have been using computers since my first Tandy 8088. My opinion about your opinion is that you are having a very narrow focus and a very strong and emotional interpretation. Computers get slow and old no matter what. It has been that way since I have been using them anyway. The pace of this slow down have a LOT of factors. I understand you think this is a master scheme by Apple to make you upgrade. While I don't quite share the same perspective and haven't had the experience you describe, I feel like you are not helping your point by not acknowledging the general natural slow down and myriad of reasons why this happens. It feels a little "conspiracy theory" like as you posted it.

Planned Obsolescence is a term that's thrown around a lot and no one ever backs it up with a logical argument.

So, I'll put in on you: what is a reasonable length of time for a computer or smartphone to be in service? At what point is it not "Planned Obsolescence" and just "old and obsolete." Most IT people that I've spoken to expect the lifespan of a Windows PC to be 3-5 years, as a baseline starting point.

The iPhone 6 is now 6.5 years old. Is it reasonable for people to expect devices that old to work exactly the same as they did when they were new, especially with newer OSes designed for more powerful devices? A car doesn't run the same after 6.5 years. My couch which has no moving parts doesn't feel the same after 6.5 years. Yet Apple users complain vehemently about devices that are from 2015 or earlier.

It's a great question, what is a "reasonable" timeline?

To wrap up my post.....two things though....

Not telling people if you are going to throttle their devices is not planned obsolescence, its bad communication. That is a separate topic. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

But IF Apple is doing "planned obsolescence", that is not the "natural" cycle, that is a forced thing. So the real question is whether Apple is just doing the same thing that computer and software MFG's have done for decades or if they are doing something nefarious to try and raise sales. If the courts are looking into that, then great! (as long as there is evidence). If this is still around a bad communication choice by Apple and now everyone is trying to throw terms at it to make it sound terrible, then it is a waste of effort.