Apple Fined Another 5 Million Euros by Dutch Competition Regulator Over Dating App Payment Requirements

[kognos]

I am indirectly paying Apple for a service. I know that everything I purchased through the App Store, payments are safe. To my knowledge, there have been no publicized breaches of the App Store payment ecosystem.

Do you expect the average consumer to do penetration testing of the payment processor? Should I need to familiarize myself with the refund policies of 20 different App Stores?

No you shouldn't. I agree in principle and in action what Apple is doing, but at the same time I disagree that it's fantastic for the most part - there are concerns. You and I can be smart people and navigate our own security, while others cannot. If I wanted something different, however, I have no choice with Apple, despite our own levels of comfort.

Apple acting as broker for the entire Apple ecosystem is a problem though. I should be allowed direct payments if I choose, and accept my own risks -- or allow the developer to accept those risks.

 

[gsurf123]

Because in the end, based on Apple's financials, we know this is almost pure profit. The amount Apple spends to keep the App Store going is piddly, and those tools, and those 3rd party apps, are what keeps Apple's actual products selling... which should be the priority. If you stop selling hardware, you lose everything else.

You have no basis for your comment. Go ahead and define piddly after you account for every single expense related to owning and operating the App Store. You can start with litigation and the add employees and infrastructure neither which are piddly amounts.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Devs can have the agency model, set the price, and let Apple take a cut. Or they can sell to Apple for a fixed price, but then let Apple set the final sales price. Devs can set an MSRP, just like other manufacturers do, but then the retailer gets to set the final price. It wouldn't be fair for developers to dictate both their wholesale price, along with the final retail price.

Sure but it wouldn’t make sense to sell to apple when apple just make infinite copies at zero cost .

So developers should be allowed to dictate the retail price consumer see or minimum retail price before VAT/sales tax is applied for international markets.
And apple would take their cut before VAT at sale as now

In a market economy, prices aren't a fixed amount, or a fixed percentage above cost. The price is what the consumer is willing to pay.

Of course, and thats why Apple shouldn’t be allowed to set the price.

 

[Rogifan]

It's more than fair considering payment processing costs most small merchants just under 3%. The developer will still be using every other component of the App Store. You do not get to display your products for free.

Tim Cook once said 84% of the apps in the App Store are free. So yeah most developers are displaying their product in the App Store for free. Apple won’t charge Facebook anything if the Facebook app gets people to buy iPhones but if some 3rd party drawing app wants to charge in-app for an extra set of brushes or some extra functionality by god come hell or high water Apple will get it’s 30% when they do so.

 

[Stratus Fear]

Apple also provides all that stuff for free on macOS.

That doesn’t really matter. The Mac is a small market compared to iOS devices. Just because Apple can afford to subsidize the Mac app platform entirely doesn’t mean they should or need to do it elsewhere.

The other platforms charging 30% will fall next. Chasing Apple is the thin edge of the wedge. You've gotta start with the biggest player, or everyone will cry out that you're chasing the little guy while the big guys like Apple do the same. And you don't want to chase them all at once, you only need one to fall, and the rest will fall like dominos.

Sounds like entitlement to me. Good luck.

 

[robco74]

Sure but it wouldn’t make sense to sell to apple when apple just make infinite copies at zero cost .

So developers should be allowed to dictate the retail price consumer see or minimum retail price before VAT/sales tax is applied for international markets.
And apple would take their cut before VAT at sale as now

Of course, and thats why Apple shouldn’t be allowed to set the price.

Again, you miss the point entirely. The fact that digital copies can be made at a relatively (but not zero) cost is irrelevant. The price is what the consumer is willing to pay for their digital copy.

To flip this around. Do you feel Apple is entitled to make any money to cover their costs in developing and maintaining the ecosystem, and if so, what method would be acceptable for them to recoup these costs?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I'm not seeing the difference between Sony/Xbox/Nintendo and Apple/iOS. They all take a cut of sales no matter where it comes from because they designed/created/manage the device and system the App/Games run on.

Thats the Thing. They don’t.
Apple is the only one who takes a cut of sale no matter where it comes from.
Xbox/Sony/Nintendo only take a cut of
First sale and in their store.

These terms are all clearly listed out in whatever contract they signed in order to develop for the platform to begin with. Being a developer isn't a right, and if you can't afford to live as one because you didn't research the costs maybe you should have chosen a different job/business.

And a contract can’t sign away legal protections. And that’s a good thing. And sometimes you just need a lawsuit to protect those rights

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I did some quick calculations from Apple's recent earnings report. That $5M amounts to about five minutes worth of revenue from their Q1. This is about like getting pulled over for speeding and your ticket costs 60¢ with a lifetime max payout of $5. What's the dis-incentive?

You need to compare it to the revenue earned in.

1. Netherlands.
2. And dating apps

Essentially apple could be paying twice their income of this narrow market.

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

You need to compare it to the revenue earned in.

1. Netherlands.
2. And dating apps

Essentially apple could be paying twice their income of this narrow market.

Even if the fine was 5x what they make from IAP on dating apps in the Netherlands, paying the fine would still be worth it for Apple. It's not about the money from this specific market. It's about the precedent it would set if they didn't charge them a commission.

 

[0924487]

So once you pay the 50m does that mean you can carry on breaking the rule forever in the Netherlands because you paid the max?

No, it means it will proceed to the next phase, such as shutting down App Store in EU, not granting permits for telecommunication equipments made by Apple, criminally charge Apple EU executives contempt of court, etc.

 

[rezwits]

The problem is the EU, and it's "subsidiaries" i.e. countries have found an avenue to just $FINE Apple willy nilly and nit pick. Until Apple just says ok no more money for us with our App Store, you get all the downloads for free, and developers just pay $100 a year.

I don't know how many of you are board game people or just people that understand this simple fact:

There are two types of people, that when purchasing something they REALLY want, they have two different attitudes:

1st attitude is: I am buying this and I don't mind the extra price because I want to support THE COMPANY(S) that are making this.

2nd attitude is: I am buying this but SCREW such and such COMPANY(S), I don't want them making a dime off from it.

Like for instance, a long time ago, people could go to their gaming store and buy a board game.

Now people cut the middle men out and some are happy to. While some feel bad for the PHYSICAL store going out of business. You could say this is pity (and oh pity Apple), and others would say screw them. But here is the deal if we could cut Amazon out some how and have the same LOW LOW prices and instant shipping we would cut them out, but we really can't. Because they are cutting the other middle men down to the lowest common denominators.

Apple is at it's lowest form too (and being able to make money), but to use Amazon you're not using their device to necessarily make the purchase, where as on a Apple Device that's THEIR TECH, their IP, their CODE.

I honestly say we should just abandon the EU and let them live with just Android and Windows. Like a FULL 100% pull out.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Xbox/Sony/Nintendo only take a cut of
First sale and in their store.

For digital downloads, there’s no difference between the App Store and console stores. Is there anyone that WANTS physical media for smartphone apps? I guess that “could” be a thing, but most folks don’t want to have a bunch of dongles they swap back and forth for when they want to use one app or another.

Grandpa: Jimmy, I want you to have this, these are the apps I loved when I was a kid. Now, they’re yours.
Jimmy: Thanks, but, those don’t even work on the newest phones. Is there something else to bequeath to me?

 

[ksec]

THIS!

Alt-payments sound good but the second you need a refund or customer service..... good luck. Also good luck when the cheapo 3rd party payment processor they choose in order to save a buck gets hacked.

It goes both ways, business has been complaining about Apple refunds for years. Sometimes they are valid, sometimes not. But it isn't a clear cut even if we ignore gaming. There are people spending $10K on a game and then refund it. At the start it was all good, now the balance seems to have tilt a little too far. It is always hard to find a balance.

 

[ksec]

I am sorry guys I am late to the party.

Why does Apple need to comply with a small and pathetic country like Netherland. Just pull out of the country. - From Previous / ongoing Macrumors comments

 

[FreedomPenguin]

I am sorry guys I am late to the party.

Why does Apple need to comply with a small and pathetic country like Netherland. Just pull out of the country. - From Previous / ongoing Macrumors comments

agreed.

drop em. we dont need em to be successful. apple will live on, and Netherlands will simply have less pregnancies. no loss

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

I am sorry guys I am late to the party.

Why does Apple need to comply with a small and pathetic country like Netherland. Just pull out of the country. - From Previous / ongoing Macrumors comments

You do realize that the types of regulations coming out in the Netherlands are just a precursor to what’s coming out around the world, right? Unless Apple should just pull out of the entire world?

The antagonistic posture Apple is taking towards regulators is very very dangerous. Taking the scorched earth approach and pulling out of small countries would send a strong message to regulators of larger countries considering their own legislation that Apple is completely unable to self-regulate, will likely engage in malicious compliance of any future laws, and that they should take a very strict approach with them. As it is, the way Apple is acting in the Netherlands and SK is probably sending that message loud and clear.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Why does Apple need to comply with a small and pathetic country like Netherland. Just pull out of the country

"a small and pathetic country"

Is that really how you feel?

I would sure hope Apple doesn't feel that way about a modern sovereign first world nation they operate in and have many customers in.

 

[coolfactor]

So, Apple proclaims that services like iDeal, Paypal, Mastercard or Visa are not safe?

Mastercard and Visa are payment processors, and PayPal can act as one. They generally don't maintain a customer database. A developer running an app would need to maintain a database of customers mapped to payments. Now, instead of Apple keeping this database safe and secure behind Apple ID, now we have 10,000 developers creating their own online databases, vastly opening up the opportunity for data leaks. And guess who will get the blame when there are problems... yup, Apple. Those pushing for these alternative payment methods are completely missing the bigger picture.

 

[coolfactor]

I am sorry guys I am late to the party.

Why does Apple need to comply with a small and pathetic country like Netherland. Just pull out of the country. - From Previous / ongoing Macrumors comments

What is small and pathetic is your viewpoint. Do you think that the US is the "greatest country in the world"? Yah, thought so.

Would your attitude change if you happened to meet the love of your life and they happened to be from the Netherlands? Yah, thought so.

 

[44267547]

Just charge a per download price, and then the company can do what they want with payment.

Charging per download would be a viable method? I’m not sure that’s an alternative solution in this instance.

 

[boss.king]

I am sorry guys I am late to the party.

Why does Apple need to comply with a small and pathetic country like Netherland. Just pull out of the country. - From Previous / ongoing Macrumors comments

How does that even make sense in your mind? They stand to make a little less from a small category of apps in the Netherlands so your conclusion it that they should just cut all their Netherlands-based revenue? That’s some real shoot-yourself-in-both-feet thinking.

Also, Apple might not want antagonize members of the EU, they may find themselves facing wider-reaching consequences.

 

[ksec]

You do realize that the types of regulations coming out in the Netherlands are just a precursor to what’s coming out around the world, right? Unless Apple should just pull out of the entire world?

The antagonistic posture Apple is taking towards regulators is very very dangerous. Taking the scorched earth approach and pulling out of small countries would send a strong message to regulators of larger countries considering their own legislation that Apple is completely unable to self-regulate, will likely engage in malicious compliance of any future laws, and that they should take a very strict approach with them. As it is, the way Apple is acting in the Netherlands and SK is probably sending that message loud and clear.

"a small and pathetic country"

Is that really how you feel?

I would sure hope Apple doesn't feel that way about a modern sovereign first world nation they operate in and have many customers in.

What is small and pathetic is your viewpoint. Do you think that the US is the "greatest country in the world"? Yah, thought so.

Would your attitude change if you happened to meet the love of your life and they happened to be from the Netherlands? Yah, thought so.

How does that even make sense in your mind? They stand to make a little less from a small category of apps in the Netherlands so your conclusion it that they should just cut all their Netherlands-based revenue? That’s some real shoot-yourself-in-both-feet thinking.

Also, Apple might not want antagonize members of the EU, they may find themselves facing wider-reaching consequences.

Those are not my comments, But comments from previous Macrumors threads. And in case you didn't realise, they also called to pull out of EU, Japan, South Korea, Russia, India, and Finally, for the first time in Macrumors comment history, the 30+ State in US.

 

[collin_]

No, apple proclaims that training users to enter their Mastercard and visa credentials into pop-ups after clicking a website link is not a safe idea. And they're right. Right now I trust my parents no to f*ck stuff up on the iPad and iPhones I bought for them and thus far they never have and they seem to digitally thrive on those. If any app can have links to third party websites to buy whatever, then I don't think I can trust them anymore and I think they won't dare to buy stuff anymore either.

So... you've never like... bought something on the internet? Because that's how it works 90% of the time. I've done exactly what you're describing hundreds and hundreds of times with 0 safety issues.

 

[AndiG]

The Netherlands ❤️ I hope this is just the beginning. There is just no way the authorities will accept Apples shameless 27% proposal. Competition and choice. In your face, Apple.

 

[Mr.PT]

Arrogance will not help Apple. This just puts more eyes on them for even more lawsuits.

Next one in EU will be about Apple decision to ignore “first come first served” rule, regarding resellers orders vs it’s own orders. This has lead to current wait period of 5Months!? for MBP resellers orders dating from end October which had official stated delivery of 4-8 weeks…